Supernatural 6x20"The Man Who Knew Too Much" spoiler discussion thread

[mswood]

Re: Supernatural 6x20"The Man Who Knew Too Much" spoiler discussion th

At this point, another death would be completely pointless with no associated drama. Death has lost a lot of its meaning with practically everyone coming back in some fashion, be it permanently, temporarily, or illusory.

I'd rather the supernatural forces involved in the struggle find victory through alternative methods. Such as Castiel convincing Raphael of the error of his ways, or Crowley being imprisoned in Hell like its reigning monarch should be (it's supposed to be a prison and a punishment, not a vacation spot you can leave whenever you please.)

Yeah I assume that once Lilith had the colt she opened back up the devil's gate (or there is another one that we aren't aware of), and demons have had the colt since season three for big stretches of the show (they key to the devil's gate). BUt what is the current status of the colt, who does have it (Is it Crowley again)?

 

[mswood]

Re: Supernatural 6x20"The Man Who Knew Too Much" spoiler discussion th

At this point, another death would be completely pointless with no associated drama. Death has lost a lot of its meaning with practically everyone coming back in some fashion, be it permanently, temporarily, or illusory.

I'd rather the supernatural forces involved in the struggle find victory through alternative methods. Such as Castiel convincing Raphael of the error of his ways, or Crowley being imprisoned in Hell like its reigning monarch should be (it's supposed to be a prison and a punishment, not a vacation spot you can leave whenever you please.)

Well there are four primary things I look for in a death.

1. Is it realistic to the fictional universe the characters are set in. Clearly in SPN death is very, very much a part of the reality of a hunter's life.

2. Are the characters allowed to process the loss of the person who died. THis is one of the reasons which made John's death, Sam and Dean original Death, Jo & Ellen's Death, and even Sam's leap into the Pit so effective. You got to see others react to those events. You got to see them feel it. And its one of the reason's Bobby's and Castiel death don't resonate, there was no time to see grief and loss of that character. Sam' with Sam's death in wishful thinking, or Sam and Dean getting gunned down by hunters, ect.

3. Are the death's characters that you have got a chance to build an emotional connection with. Obviously characters die in I think every episode of SPN, most of them don't resonate, because we have no real relationship with them.

4. Is it handled well. Obviously it helps if your death is an episode like In My Time of Dying or Abandon All Hope as those two episodes are overall very well done. But even in All Hell Break's Loose I (an overall episode I was just neutral with) the actual death is handled well. For example look at Mystery Spot (an episode I really, really like, but it just misses being on my Great episode list. And that's because Dean's death doesn't feel real. That death realistically should hit Sam the same way his death does later that season. It is never portrayed that way, either in tone or acting.

You get those four criteria down (at least in my book) and the death is going to have some impact.

I think having Castiel or Bobby die and stay dead, fits criteria 1, fits criteria two, fits criteria three. That only leaves how the scene itself plays out.

 

[mswood]

Re: Supernatural 6x20"The Man Who Knew Too Much" spoiler discussion th

The one death scene that i considered an event was Lost's Charlie Pace's death scene. First and probably the last time I sort of choked up on a death scene, especially with the score of Life and Death going on.

Yes and Boone's--that is how you kill off a character. Then after that LOST just treated them as a non-event and left no emotional impact--they were just cleaning house--Locke's death, Rousseau's death, Alex's death, Shannon's death, Daniel's death, Charlotte's death, Sun and Jin's--treated like one of a dozen plot points that get lost among the rest . The shot of Jack's eye closing for the last time was moving but everything else surrounding it fell flat. Ana Lucia and Libby's deaths didn't carry an emotional impact but was effective for the shock value. Look at how Heroes ditched Niki, Nathan or Eden--flat, flat, flat. BSG did this too.

SN did a good job with John's death as well as JO/Ellen's deaths but the rest meh--Rufus's death and aftermath was too abrupt I was totally indifferent, Samuel who cares getting rid of a dull character, Pamela meh, Ash meh.

Writers these days need to learn you have to earn a character death and not dole them out right and left because it blunts any impact they expect to have.

I actually thought BSG handled over all death better then Lost (even if I hated other parts of the episode).

As to Rufus, we never really get to know the guy, nor do we see the characters having a real history together. A brief scene with Dean, brief interaction with the boys in another episode, and an episode with Bobby, really doesn't allow you a lot of time to build any real attachment to the character in relationship to the primary characters on the show. And I liked Rufus, and I liked the actor, but I never thought they really developed a bond between Rufus and the primary cast that allowed me to really be impacted by his death. Similar with Pamela another character I liked. And frankly Ash couldn't die fast enough for me, hated the character. Heck even characters like Mary, Jessica, or Madison resonated more with me as I felt the characters loss, even though they had very little screen time, before their demise.

 

[Dorian Thompson]

Re: Supernatural 6x20"The Man Who Knew Too Much" spoiler discussion th

You see, I disagree. I felt Rufus' death very keenly because the actor resonated with me, and because it affected Bobby so deeply.

 

[Obiwanshinobi]

Re: Supernatural 6x20"The Man Who Knew Too Much" spoiler discussion th

I'll forever see Steven Williams as Captain Adam Fuller from 21 Jump Street.

 

[mswood]

Re: Supernatural 6x20"The Man Who Knew Too Much" spoiler discussion th

You see, I disagree. I felt Rufus' death very keenly because the actor resonated with me, and because it affected Bobby so deeply.

The thing with Rufus ( again I really liked the character and the actor, well after 21 jump street yuck!), but from season 3 to right about Weekend at Bobby's I never got any vibe that Bobby and Rufus were close. Not really. And as such I found Bobby's reaction a little bit over the top for the majority of the episodes we have had Rufus in or mentioned with Bobby.

I don't think its a bad death per say, just not a really powerful one.

I mean even Mary and Jess (who we never see before the die) have a larger impact because one, we don't see the other characters before we see them. So if the characters have a connection we should believe that Mary is a loving mom and wife, and Jess is a loving girlfriend. Hell on a single episode basis on thought Sam and Madison really worked hard to establish an emotional attraction, and of course mix it with every thing else Sam is going through (also fear of being a monster that has to be put down, and his own fear that anyone he loves is going to die) really worked for me.

One of the best one off guest star deaths the show has done, and hell we don't even see it.

 

[auntiehill]

Re: Supernatural 6x20"The Man Who Knew Too Much" spoiler discussion th

I'll forever see Steven Williams as Captain Adam Fuller from 21 Jump Street.

Me, too. I think that every time he pops up on various shows.

 

[Dream]

Re: Supernatural 6x20"The Man Who Knew Too Much" spoiler discussion th

The thing with Rufus ( again I really liked the character and the actor, well after 21 jump street yuck!)

Don't be too harsh on 21 Jump Street. It deserves credit for launching Johnny Depp's acting career.

 

[Aragorn]

Re: Supernatural 6x20"The Man Who Knew Too Much" spoiler discussion th

The thing with Rufus ( again I really liked the character and the actor, well after 21 jump street yuck!)

Don't be too harsh on 21 Jump Street. It deserves credit for launching Johnny Depp's acting career.

Who's Johnny Depp? Was he the Richard Greico wannabe?

 

[mswood]

Re: Supernatural 6x20"The Man Who Knew Too Much" spoiler discussion th

I just watched that episode again, and I think I see the biggest reason that Death didn't really move me like some of the other.

The death isn't immediately witnessed by the character who has a real connection with the Ruffus. And when we see Bobby immediately mourning the death the focus of the episode isn't that mourning but Dean and Sam acceptance of their own past mistakes and the ability to move on from that. Dean and Sam don't have a real strong relationship to Ruffus, don't know Bobby's history to the man, ect. So the leads are really by standers to the grief, and the episode doesn't focus on it.

Compare that to Jo a character that hasn't been on the show that much in reality (though more then Ruffus), and when she passes the episode's full focus is on her mother reaction to that death. We see before and after that the two leads who do have a stronger relationship to Ellen and Jo realize what is happening, and the episode ends with them facing that fact. Thats a great death scene for not only Jo but Ellen as well. And the bonds are much stronger between both the two ho die, and to the leads of the show.

 

[Captain Mike]

Re: Supernatural 6x20"The Man Who Knew Too Much" spoiler discussion th

I just watched that episode again, and I think I see the biggest reason that Death didn't really move me like some of the other.

The death isn't immediately witnessed by the character who has a real connection with the Ruffus. And when we see Bobby immediately mourning the death the focus of the episode isn't that mourning but Dean and Sam acceptance of their own past mistakes and the ability to move on from that. Dean and Sam don't have a real strong relationship to Ruffus, don't know Bobby's history to the man, ect. So the leads are really by standers to the grief, and the episode doesn't focus on it.

Compare that to Jo a character that hasn't been on the show that much in reality (though more then Ruffus), and when she passes the episode's full focus is on her mother reaction to that death. We see before and after that the two leads who do have a stronger relationship to Ellen and Jo realize what is happening, and the episode ends with them facing that fact. Thats a great death scene for not only Jo but Ellen as well. And the bonds are much stronger between both the two ho die, and to the leads of the show.

I agree somewhat. Can't think of the episode off the top of my head, but from the way Dean and Sam sounded that Ellen and John had more of a history besides her husband and John being "more than hunter's" gig? And after all since she owned the "Roadhouse"? I mean that is where they went if they couldn't get together with Bobby. And Dean I think had an affliction to Jo as "the girl i wanna be with in this "hunters life" kind of thing.