Supernatural 6x20"The Man Who Knew Too Much" spoiler discussion thread

[mswood]

Re: Supernatural 6x20"The Man Who Knew Too Much" spoiler discussion th

I think what I liked most is that while Castiel can formulate his thoughts into words really well while praying, his social inadequacies come to the forefront when he tries to interact with the Winchesters and Bobby.

If he had just been able to explain it the same way to them, the outcome would have likely been completely different.

Do you mean if he had been able to articulate it to them in the episode the way he did via narration to the viewer? If so, I somewhat agree (with some reservations - I think Castiel bringing Sam back soulless to do work for him is a much bigger slight in Dean's eyes than working with Crowley).

But I'm not sure what would have happened if he came to Dean at the start of s6 and laid it all out on the table for him.

Yeah if he had deliberately brought Sam back wrong, then I think that would probably be it for their friendship. Just as I think if he knew that Castiel was the one who released junked up Sam to kill Lilith, might very well be enough for Dean to truly and completely flip out. While Dean set the seals in motion he was trying to help another (Sam), when Sam killing LIlith, unknowingly freeing Lucifer he was trying to save the whole planet. Castiel was the only one who did the things he did knowing that millions would be put in mortal risk in season 4. He was the one who's choice was made and being fully aware of the situation. And he made absolutely the wrong one, and when he changed his mind it was to late.

And frankly Castiel isn't a "real" bad guy, he is still trying to do what will cost the least amount of lives. Rapheal (and I loved seeing the original back , the actor just nails the role) wants to set loose Lucifer and Michael, no ands ifs or butts. And unlike demons, Dean and Sam have no real way of stopping angels. If worse came to worse Sam can pretty much stop any demon, even if it truly costs his own soul in the process.

Castiel is basically making Sam's season 4 mistake, with the exception of unlike Sam he does know the real consequences of his actions.

 

[Checkmate]

Re: Supernatural 6x20"The Man Who Knew Too Much" spoiler discussion th

Castiel said in his prayers that Sam was an accident. The fact that he was able to do anything at all is amazing enough, and when he realized what had happened what was he supposed to do? Smite the man he just tried to rescue?

And yes, Castiel is doing this for the better good. But he's all alone. He has no guidance other than the Winchesters, and how often did they make a deal with the devil for the better good? He learned to be deceptive and think outside the box from them. It's a bit hypocritical of them, really, though understandable considering that they are hunters when it comes down to it... and hunters aren't exactly known to be deep thinkers and philosophers. If it's not white, it's black; unless they're the ones going into the gray.

The fact that Castiel made this prayer, begging God to help him walk down the proper path, says it all. He's not a bad guy at all. He's just making bad decisions for the right reasons.

 

[mswood]

Re: Supernatural 6x20"The Man Who Knew Too Much" spoiler discussion th

Castiel said in his prayers that Sam was an accident. The fact that he was able to do anything at all is amazing enough, and when he realized what had happened what was he supposed to do? Smite the man he just tried to rescue?

And yes, Castiel is doing this for the better good. But he's all alone. He has no guidance other than the Winchesters, and how often did they make a deal with the devil for the better good? He learned to be deceptive and think outside the box from them. It's a bit hypocritical of them, really, though understandable considering that they are hunters when it comes down to it... and hunters aren't exactly known to be deep thinkers and philosophers. If it's not white, it's black; unless they're the ones going into the gray.

The fact that Castiel made this prayer, begging God to help him walk down the proper path, says it all. He's not a bad guy at all. He's just making bad decisions for the right reasons.

It's not really.

Dean sold his soul, only knowing he would have eternal damnation. That was the worst he knew would happen.

When Sam used his abilities and to ultimately end Lilith, the worst that he knew could happen is he would lose himself (he honestly thought he would die and be damned). Remember Angels, Demons, Bobby and Chuck all said that Sam might have to do it. Only Dean (And the rebel Uriel) stayed consistently don't do it. And in Dean's case it the thought that his brother was turning into a force of evil a monster not that he is going to release hell on Earth.

Castiel is trying to open a portal to Purgatory, the place all monsters go. That's a little more serious (on the danger side) then what Dean or Sam has done.

But Castiel isn't human and doesn't share the same morals stance concerning humans that Sam or Dean has. And Dean really, really should know this (hell he should have known this a long time ago).

We all need to remember if Castiel truly thought god wanted Michael and Lucifer to fight it out, he would have never changed his mind. In fact that was probably the angel's biggest mistake in letting Castiel know that God wasn't calling the shots.

 

[mswood]

Re: Supernatural 6x20"The Man Who Knew Too Much" spoiler discussion th

Oh and who is hoping that either Bobby or Castiel die in the season ender (or even both)?

 

[Checkmate]

Re: Supernatural 6x20"The Man Who Knew Too Much" spoiler discussion th

It's not really.

You may have forgotten the whole "I'm going to let Lucifer take over my body" bit. Which, you know, there were no guarantees he would be able to control him and which was basically ushering in the Apocalypse.

If giving Lucifer the perfect skinride to destroy the world in order to stop the Apocalypse isn't equivalent to opening a portal to Purgatory to stop the Apocalypse, I don't know what is.

 

[Dorian Thompson]

Re: Supernatural 6x20"The Man Who Knew Too Much" spoiler discussion th

Not me, mswood. Not me.

 

[Skywalker]

Re: Supernatural 6x20"The Man Who Knew Too Much" spoiler discussion th

Not me, mswood. Not me.

In a shocking twist ending, it's actually Sam and Dean who die in the Season 6 finale, and Season 7 is about Bobby and Castiel as they ride across the country fighting monsters.

 

[mswood]

Re: Supernatural 6x20"The Man Who Knew Too Much" spoiler discussion th

It's not really.

You may have forgotten the whole "I'm going to let Lucifer take over my body" bit. Which, you know, there were no guarantees he would be able to control him and which was basically ushering in the Apocalypse.

If giving Lucifer the perfect skinride to destroy the world in order to stop the Apocalypse isn't equivalent to opening a portal to Purgatory to stop the Apocalypse, I don't know what is.

Well the difference is they tried (or considered) every other option they conceived of. Using the Colt to kill him, using another Arch Angel to kill him, even killing themselves to avoid it. One way or another the battle would have occurred, even if Lucifer had to use a sub like Michael did. After all even in the cheap sub he destroyed many gods, and killed another archangel.

Now if we ever saw Castiel try other means (or say that he exhausted every other option), then OK I would consider it similar.

I mean when he blast Raphael why doesn't he kill him, when he is weak. Why doesn't he capture him, and kill him. We neither see or hear him say he tried to kill Raphael to stop the threat.

 

[mswood]

Re: Supernatural 6x20"The Man Who Knew Too Much" spoiler discussion th

Not me, mswood. Not me.

Sorry but I think its time for one of them at the very least to perish, and stay dead.

My money would be on Cas (as much as I like the character and the actor) if they end the "civil war" in heaven, what exactly is Castiel going to had to the show.

I mean the only thing I can reasonable see (again if the civil war ends), is Castiel stuck as a human. Which they did explore to some degree already.

I mean most people don't want to see Sam juiced up, and even so he can only in that state impact demons (lots of other creatures they fight), but Castiel is can effect pretty much anything.

 

[startrekwatcher]

Re: Supernatural 6x20"The Man Who Knew Too Much" spoiler discussion th

Frankly I'm tired of killing off characters just to do so. It seemed like in the last decade shows have tried to go completely to the other end of the spectrum by killing off people right and left--whereas shows in the 80s/90s were criticized for not killing off characters.

Personally I preferred when character deaths were done sparingly and not as a plot point or hurried over. Now a lot of times the characters they kill are just cyphers and carry no significance or when they do kill a main character it is almost a footnote. I preferred it when they were big events and a significant portion of the episode dwelled on it. Now they just rush by.

Besides SN has killed off enough characters--John, Jo, Ellen, Rufus, Ash etc that I'll be fine if they don't touch a hair on anybody's head right now. Not to mention the numerous deaths of Sam and Dean.

 

[Dream]

Re: Supernatural 6x20"The Man Who Knew Too Much" spoiler discussion th

Bobby has already been killed once and Cas has already been killed twice. They both were resurrected. I think that if either of them died for real right now there would be zero impact and it would only end up pissing off fans. They should just keep both characters for the rest of the series. No point in getting rid of a good supporting character just to shock the audience for a few minutes.

I still think killing Jo and Ellen was a big mistake. Jo was the only person that I could have seen eventually working out with Dean in a relationship. Ellen was also awesome. The writers screwed the pooch with that by getting rid of their two best female characters.

 

[Obiwanshinobi]

Re: Supernatural 6x20"The Man Who Knew Too Much" spoiler discussion th

The one death scene that i considered an event was Lost's Charlie Pace's death scene. First and probably the last time I sort of choked up on a death scene, especially with the score of Life and Death going on.

 

[Dream]

Re: Supernatural 6x20"The Man Who Knew Too Much" spoiler discussion th

One thing I really liked about LOST is that character deaths were really well done.

 

[startrekwatcher]

Re: Supernatural 6x20"The Man Who Knew Too Much" spoiler discussion th

The one death scene that i considered an event was Lost's Charlie Pace's death scene. First and probably the last time I sort of choked up on a death scene, especially with the score of Life and Death going on.

Yes and Boone's--that is how you kill off a character. Then after that LOST just treated them as a non-event and left no emotional impact--they were just cleaning house--Locke's death, Rousseau's death, Alex's death, Shannon's death, Daniel's death, Charlotte's death, Sun and Jin's--treated like one of a dozen plot points that get lost among the rest . The shot of Jack's eye closing for the last time was moving but everything else surrounding it fell flat. Ana Lucia and Libby's deaths didn't carry an emotional impact but was effective for the shock value. Look at how Heroes ditched Niki, Nathan or Eden--flat, flat, flat. BSG did this too.

SN did a good job with John's death as well as JO/Ellen's deaths but the rest meh--Rufus's death and aftermath was too abrupt I was totally indifferent, Samuel who cares getting rid of a dull character, Pamela meh, Ash meh.

Writers these days need to learn you have to earn a character death and not dole them out right and left because it blunts any impact they expect to have.

 

[Electric Coleslaw]

Re: Supernatural 6x20"The Man Who Knew Too Much" spoiler discussion th

^Whatever. Talk about having unrealistic expectations on just about anything. Lost was awesome!
I kinda have a love/hate thing with deaths on shows these days. In the past, you always knew the lead actors were safe no matter the dire straits. But these days you never know when someone is going to bite it unexpectedly. So I love the shock but sometimes I hate to see someone go. But the beauty of watching sci-fi is that you always know there's a chance they will come back.

 

[mswood]

Re: Supernatural 6x20"The Man Who Knew Too Much" spoiler discussion th

The one I initially believed was Charlie. That scene really played like a real death. Just brutal. Even Boothe's real death didn't have anywhere near the impact, and those two really were the only death's that had any impact on my as a viewer.

With SPN its been consistently portrayed as a very tough life. Where you can't expect to reach your golden years. The show has been very upfront about the life expectancy of hunters. So I have never felt, look death just for the hell of it. Well besides a couple of the times Sam or Dean have died (like thunderbolt killing Sam in Wishful Thinking, as an example).

A well played death can have meaning even if (like I was with Charlie) absolutely sure the character would be alive by the end of the episode. Take Sam's death. I wasn't a big fan of that episode, but how they treated that death, and Dean and Bobby's reaction in the next episode were near perfection. And of course knew Sam wasn't going to stay dead, at all. I felt that way (to some degree) about Sam's jump into the Pit, Dean dying and going to hell. All of those resonated with me, as a viewer and I knew the characters would be back. With those I would place the real deaths of John, Ellen and Jo as "Death" highlights for the show. Because they treated them well, even if you had a really good idea that they were toast when the episode started.

One of the reason's Ruffus didn't do much of anything for me, is that he wasn't much of a presence on the show, or two the main characters (even if you count Bobby we had them together in what one total episode).

But Castiel or Bobby in a legitimate and lasting death "Should" impact not only the characters but the viewers. Should, if they don't botch it.

And Frankly I just have a problem with Castiel (as he currently is) having a significant role in a future season if this current arc is tied up (which if they aren't lying its supposed to be). But who knows what type of stories they are planning...

 

[Dream]

Re: Supernatural 6x20"The Man Who Knew Too Much" spoiler discussion th

But Castiel or Bobby in a legitimate and lasting death "Should" impact not only the characters but the viewers. Should, if they don't botch it.

Castiel and Bobby had absoutely terrible death scenes. Castiel's first death happened offscreen while he was with Chuck. Castiel and Bobby were killed and they brought back minutes later in Swan Song. Zero impact. I have a hard time believing they won't botch it.

Also if Bobby dies there is no reason Cas doesn't bring him back.

 

[OsmiumJohnnycake]

Re: Supernatural 6x20"The Man Who Knew Too Much" spoiler discussion th

Also if Bobby dies there is no reason Cas doesn't bring him back.

Unless Crowley kills him and Cas can't bring him back because Bobby has figured out how to kill Cas. I suppose then if Cas did bring back Bobby anyway and Cas was killed/stopped with that infor it could go a ways toward redeeming Cas in Sam/Dean/Bobby's eyes in retrospect (if they found out only too late).

Something along those lines could make it work for me.

 

[Checkmate]

Re: Supernatural 6x20"The Man Who Knew Too Much" spoiler discussion th

At this point, another death would be completely pointless with no associated drama. Death has lost a lot of its meaning with practically everyone coming back in some fashion, be it permanently, temporarily, or illusory.

I'd rather the supernatural forces involved in the struggle find victory through alternative methods. Such as Castiel convincing Raphael of the error of his ways, or Crowley being imprisoned in Hell like its reigning monarch should be (it's supposed to be a prison and a punishment, not a vacation spot you can leave whenever you please.)

 

[Thor Damar]

Re: Supernatural 6x20"The Man Who Knew Too Much" spoiler discussion th

^ Or they could work out a deal with Satan jnr (irony) in which he stays in his lovely new Hell of eternal queuing in exchange for not being either killed or other wise horribly punished.

After all, he is doing a valuable service in running the Pit and he seems to be keep the spawn in line. More a case of the Devil you know...

(I'm also assuming that the Meg demon has been caught by His Infernal majesty and is now residing in a dark and lonely corner of Hades. Especially after what happened last time.)

Maybe Raph joins his brother's in the Cage...?