6x03 The Curse of the Black Spot (Grading/Discussion) (SPOILERS!!)

[Psion]

What makes you think the pirates are raping anyone?

I don't know about raping but we're told that Avery has killed 1000 people, which is 999 more than the Silence but that's OK because he's got a son he has to work out some "issues" with, apparently.

Which reminds me, the pirate says Avery's killed "1000 innocent people." Exact quote.

Now keeping in line with the rule that villains aren't supposed to think of themselves as villains, shouldn't that mean that from the pirates' perspective, they wouldn't consider anyone they kill to be innocent. They'd feel there were legitimate reasons to kill those people.

No one goes around saying "I kill innocent people" unless they want people to think they're psychotic.

Actually, the exact quote was, "I've seen your father gun down a thousand innocent men." Perhaps the pirate exaggerated Avery's actions to disabuse Toby of any notion that his father was a man of honor. Economist Peter Leeson said of piracy,

We normally think about pirates as sort of blood-lusting, that they want to slash somebody to pieces. [It's probably more likely that] a pirate, just like a normal person, would probably rather not have killed someone, but pirates knew that if that person resisted them and they didn't do something about it, their reputation and thus their brand name would be impaired. So you can imagine a pirate rather reluctantly engaging in this behavior as a way of preserving that reputation.

Even in their time, pirates regularly received pardons for their crimes, and I don't think any of them had a reputation for killing 1,000 innocent people. And really ... "gun down a thousand innocent men"? With a flint-lock?! Maybe firing against other ships with cannons, in which case the count would be rather unofficial, and most likely would have been done with English approval as an "independent" combatant.

And let's not forget the Doctor himself stole his TARDIS and isn't exactly a law-and-order kind of guy.

 

[StCoop]

If there is a sliding scale you'd imagine the likes of Davros, The Master, The Cult of Skaro etc would be at the high end of it...and the Tenth Doctor was willing to give them a second (not to mention third-infinity) chance?

He offers people a chance if they're willing to change, not unconditionally. Avery didn't change at all in the episode and neither did the Silurian vivisectionist last year.

 

[RavenCWG]

What makes you think the pirates are raping anyone?

I don't know about raping but we're told that Avery has killed 1000 people, which is 999 more than the Silence but that's OK because he's got a son he has to work out some "issues" with, apparently.

Which reminds me, the pirate says Avery's killed "1000 innocent people." Exact quote.

Now keeping in line with the rule that villains aren't supposed to think of themselves as villains, shouldn't that mean that from the pirates' perspective, they wouldn't consider anyone they kill to be innocent. They'd feel there were legitimate reasons to kill those people.

No one goes around saying "I kill innocent people" unless they want people to think they're psychotic.

I'm not sure why we are getting so hung up on this whole "killed a 1000 innocent people" line. My impression was that the pirate guy was lying (or at least greatly exaggerating) to the kid. After all, he didn't think that it was his responsibility to have watch the boy in the first place, then the kid starts lecturing him about how his dad is this wonderful, honorable naval officer, and telling him that he was duty bound to follow orders. So the guy's angry response to the boy was mostly about making the Captain sound as much like a "blood-thirsty" pirate as possible to shatter the boy's hero worship of his father, to crush his spirit and put him in his place.

I know there is no direct evidence that the guy was lying, but there is also nothing to prove he was telling the truth either. (We all know a pirate would never lie...would he?) The Captain may not have been the virtuous, honorable man that his son believed him to be, and he certainly had put his greed and quest for treasure ahead of his family and duty to country, but he just didn't seem to me to be the heartless, cold-blooded killer type.
.

 

[Psion]

To continue my previous defense of Avery and his crew, the Pirates! Fact and Legend website has this to say on the subject of piracy during the era of "Curse of the Black Mark":

Piracy offered a number of advantages, not the least of which was freedom from the harsh discipline suffered in the Royal Navy or aboard a merchantman. Pirates rarely flogged their mates, and while marooning and death were severe forms of punishment, they never endured six hundred lashes, swallowing cockroaches or iron bolts to learn a lesson. Nor would a pirate captain dare to cut out an eye as happened to Richard Desbrough. Life on land was equally fraught with cruel punishments, for use of the thumbscrew, pillory, and branding iron were still in use. “Children as young as seven, both boys and girls, were hanged. …n 1698, Parliament had passed a law that the theft of good, worth more than five shillings, rated the death penalty.”

So life in that era was harsh and cruel in general. The government hung children for cripes sake, and we're questioning the morality of Avery's bunch?! The site further quotes a pirate from Anton Gill's The Devil's Mariner as saying,

"They vilify us, the scoundrels do, then there is only this difference, they rob the poor under the cover of law, forsooth, and we plunder the rich under the protection of our own courage; had ye not better make one of use, than sneak after the arses of those villains for employment?”

From this, I see in these rogues an analogue to Robin Hood, a character routinely seen as virtuous. There's no question that some pirates were vicious, but it's equally possible that Avery and his men practiced their trade with dignity and morality superior to authorities of his time. Given this, I'm more than happy with the Doctor's decision to let them have a starship at the end of the episode.

 

[MacLeod]

Well had a marathon session and watched the first 3 episodes for the first time on one night. And personally I found them rather average compared to some of the previous ones. But next weeks looks interesting from the trailer.

and Psion if you believe the Doctor he "borrowed" the TARDIS.

 

[DAK]

I think everyone has gone mental, this was one of the best episodes in a while, much more fun and less confusing than the premier. Classic Doctor Who that, and I'm impressed. I wish more episodes were like this one. I complained about the the premier episodes because they were too cluttered, and all over the place. This episode brought sanity back to the show, much more simple, perfectly Doctor Who in every which way. This really was a top notch episode, I can't rave about it enough. I just don't get the negative vibe /shrug If threads are gonna keep being this depressing I may just stop posting in them all together. Reading this thread has rather ruined my Doctor Who fun.

Poor baby. Look, you're entitled to disagree with people, but calling all of us who thought the episode was complete rubbish "mental" is insulting. Some of us don't agree with you, OK? Deal with it.

 

[Psion]

and Psion if you believe the Doctor he "borrowed" the TARDIS.

"Rule number 1 -- the Doctor lies!"

He actually bought it with a 3000 year mortgage. He was still paying it off when the Time War erupted. That the Time Lords and their banks were forever sealed in a Time Lock and he didn't have to make any more payments was ... purely coincidental.

 

[Count Zero]

and Psion if you believe the Doctor he "borrowed" the TARDIS.

And fully intended to give it back. But, judging from the Master's reaction in The Claws of Axos it was an antique, anyway. So it was more like stealing an old, rusty bike.

 

[Whofan]

Speaking of the Master, I can't help but think of Rory talking about beards and that photoshop of him as the master on another thread.

 

[Sindatur]

Speaking of the Master, I can't help but think of Rory talking about beards and that photoshop of him as the master on another thread.

Heh, I had the same thought flash through my mind when that line came out of Rory's mouth

 

[davejames]

I liked it well enough. The idea that even a scratch could do you in was a good one, and the twist involving the siren was unexpected and kinda cool.

I think the main problem was just with the execution. The action seemed poorly staged, the pirates weren't remotely fun or interesting, and they didn't do anything cool with the pirate ship at all. Even with the ship stranded on a windless ocean, I would have expected the episode to look a BIT more spectacular and amazing than it did.

Still though, I'll gladly take this over Victory of the Daleks. That was a whole other LEVEL of cheesy and ridiculous, and much worse than this one could ever dream of being.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

On a completely different and arbitrary note, I forgot to mention earlier that I loved that The Eleventh Doctor has picked up yet another hat for his collection: a tricorn! Special episodes aside ("A Christmas Carol" and "Time"/"Space"), The Eleventh Doctor has picked up a new hat in each new story. While I can only hope this is a regular trend, I also hope he'll settle on one (and River and Amy lets him keep it!) and wears it on a regular basis.

Either way, this is making up for years of hatless Doctors since The Seventh Doctor.

 

[Whofan]

Wasn't Matt's original costume going to be something Piratey? They were going for a "Jack Sparrow" look from what I've read, but Matt insisted on a Troughton-esque costume after watching Tomb of the Cybermen. Or something like that.


Funny thing is in a lot of press photos of Matt just being casual, he seems to wear a lot of fedoras and scarves.

 

[DWF]

What makes you think the pirates are raping anyone?

I don't know about raping but we're told that Avery has killed 1000 people, which is 999 more than the Silence but that's OK because he's got a son he has to work out some "issues" with, apparently.

I doubt if the guy who said that could even count to 1000, I'd say it's just a tall tale about Capt. Avery and nothng more than that.

 

[Skellington]

But, judging from the Master's reaction in The Claws of Axos it was an antique, anyway. So it was more like stealing an old, rusty bike.

That's a very expensive and very dangerous old rusty bike.

 

[Worf2DS9]

Everyone just standing around, watching, and just letting the extras/plot drivers get "killed" while the important characters were saved from such a fate time and again, was even worse. They didn't even make an effort to stop them from being poofed out of existence.

Is it possible that the others not marked with a black spot were truly mesmerized by the siren's song, rendering them brain-addled enough that they were unable to assist the victims (if the notion even occurred to them)?

 

[Professor Zoom]

Everyone just standing around, watching, and just letting the extras/plot drivers get "killed" while the important characters were saved from such a fate time and again, was even worse. They didn't even make an effort to stop them from being poofed out of existence.

Is it possible that the others not marked with a black spot were truly mesmerized by the siren's song, rendering them brain-addled enough that they were unable to assist the victims (if the notion even occurred to them)?

They were sure able to assist Rory. So, no.

 

[Skywalker]

On a completely different and arbitrary note, I forgot to mention earlier that I loved that The Eleventh Doctor has picked up yet another hat for his collection: a tricorn!

I loved his line after Every snapped at him for giving orders on his ship. "What, worried because I'm wearing a hat now?"

 

[Rosalind]

I enjoyed this episode, but it definitely doesn't have the awe and creepiness of that opening two parter. So far, after The Blind Banker and this one, Thomson doesn't struck me as someone who come up with shiny cool stories. Still, it was a fun 45 minutes, even though the middle sagged a bit.

Looking forward to next week's episode.

Special episodes aside ("A Christmas Carol" and "Time"/"Space"), The Eleventh Doctor has picked up a new hat in each new story.

Really? I only counted the Fez, the Stetson, and this one; what else did he wear last year?

 

[wamdue]

I might have this wrong, but didnt he have a christmas cracker hat on in the Christmas Carol, dont think he made a big deal of it or anything.