Obama's Birth Certificate Analyzed

[bigdaddy]

See what I mean? The ignore the special people really works out well.

Hey black guy! Prove you are an American by higher standards than we have with the white guy!

It's racism, sometimes even the racists don't see how much they are racist.

If you have to be 35 to be president, why not just say you have to be an American for 25 years to be President?

The ignorance is amazing because the only reason that clause is written is because the founding fathers didn't like some guy that was born in England.

 

[Vance]

Yes yes...it was the liberals' fault.

There were plenty of liberals that added to the confusion of the issue over the past couple of years. Certainly the false documents on DailyKos did Obama no favors. (And, for the record, I did say that short form SHOULD have ended this and, for most people, it would have, if that hadn't happened.)

It doesn't mean that if the President's office is vacant that EVERYONE get's "promoted". When Kennedy was assassinated Johnson did get elevated but Speaker John W. McCormack did NOT become Vice President.

The succession line means that McCormack was indeed required to fufill the role of Vice President if the need arose, which would have occured if Johnson was unable to fufill his duty, or if the Senate would have had a tie vote on some issue. Since the duty of the Vice President is so minor, Johnson and the DNC at the time felt it best to simply not fill that seat for the time being. Nixon, as you casually ignored, did fill that seat with Ford after Agnew. Since Ford's term was so short, however, he went without a Vice President for the duration of his term.

ETA: Reid and Pelosi had nothing to do with Obama's election. The electors did.

Certification of eligibility, a procedural issue, is handled by the speaker and majority whip.

 

[cultcross]

You let me know what country on Earth allows a foriegn national to become its primary head of state, then get back to me. How dare the United States demand someone be a natural citizen to be its head of state!

Almost all developed nations would allow a foreign-born person to be head of state and/or head of government if they were a naturalised citizen, including my own. We have had 14 foreign born monarchs and 1 foreign born prime minister. There is absolutely nothing to stop someone coming to this country and one day making it to our highest elected office. This is the case in most of Europe, Canada (4 foreign born PMs) and Australia (actually quite common). It is a quirk of the US that requires a natural born citizen, not merely a citizen. That requirement is very difficult to defend in light of what America supposedly stands for.

 

[Vance]

See what I mean? The ignore the special people really works out well.

The exact same standards were placed on McCain. The primary diffrence is that McCain went to the public right off the bat and Obama did not. Also, McCain didn't have a number of relatives saying 'no, no, he's really Panamanian!'

When Michelle Obama continually asserts that her husband is Kenyan, you honestly can't see why this could cause some consternation? I get what she was saying, but her behaviour (and his brothers, and his aunt's, and the Indonesian government's, etc.) is what furthered the issue along.

There may be an argument for a constitutional change now to allow naturalized citizenship for the high office, but there's nothing stopping anyone from calling for a conventional to get that done if there's such a demand for it.

Hey black guy! Prove you are an American by higher standards than we have with the white guy!

Then how the fuck did he become President in the first place? By your logic, he shouldn't have even made a showing in the DNC preliminaries.

The ignorance is amazing because the only reason that clause is written is because the founding fathers didn't like some guy that was born in England.

Ignorant of you considering that all of the founding fathers were British and quite a few of them were from the Isles. What they didn't want, and for good reason, was for foriegn influence to undermine the integrity of the Presidential office.

 

[JarodRussell]

Ignorant of you considering that all of the founding fathers were British and quite a few of them were from the Isles. What they didn't want, and for good reason, was for foriegn influence to undermine the integrity of the Presidential office.

LOL, how could the Founding Fathers have NOT been British? They certainly weren't born in the USA.

But Arnold Schwarzenegger becoming President would be indeed a major ploy of the Nazi-Germans to take over the world again.

 

[Squiggy]

Yes It doesn't mean that if the President's office is vacant that EVERYONE get's "promoted". When Kennedy was assassinated Johnson did get elevated but Speaker John W. McCormack did NOT become Vice President.

The succession line means that McCormack was indeed required to fufill the role of Vice President if the need arose, which would have occured if Johnson was unable to fufill his duty, or if the Senate would have had a tie vote on some issue. Since the duty of the Vice President is so minor, Johnson and the DNC at the time felt it best to simply not fill that seat for the time being. Nixon, as you casually ignored, did fill that seat with Ford after Agnew. Since Ford's term was so short, however, he went without a Vice President for the duration of his term.

I didn't casually leave it out as it didn't have anything to do with my topic. Nixon wanted a Vice President, he got a Vice President. He picked one and it was confirmed. It wasn't automatically plopped into his lap as you suggested would happen.

You're also saying that it's automatic...unless it isn't. Johnson didn't have a Vice President for well over a year, not until the start of his term.

And no...what you said still isn't how it happens. In the absence of a Vice President, the Speaker doesn't automatically become the VP if needed. The only de facto automatic elevation is the in the event of the vacancy of every position above him. The only point the Speaker would be elevated is if the President and Vice President were taken out of the system and then he would have to resign from office (as...being the constitutional scholar that you are I'm sure you're aware that someone can't serve in two branches of the government at the same time).

Of course, this is all theory as it's never been applied before and hopefully never will. But still...you're wrong. The only people who can vote in the Senate are Senators and the President of the Senate in the event of a tie. The Speaker of the House is neither of these positions and can only be the later if he's nominated and confirmed.

 

[bigdaddy]

It is a quirk of the US that requires a natural born citizen, not merely a citizen. That requirement is very difficult to defend in light of what America supposedly stands for.

No it's not hard to defend.

I don't want some Mexican to be president! I don't like Mexicans that are here! Even if they were born here and are a citizen I still don't want them here!

The racism in America is covered up by the people's stupidity.

 

[Vance]

LOL, how could the Founding Fathers have NOT been British? They certainly weren't born in the USA.

I was kinda wondering about that one...

But Arnold Schwarzenegger becoming President would be indeed a major ploy of the Nazi-Germans to take over the world again.

Here I thought it was Sky-Net's ploy?

But, if we're really at the point to open up the Presidency to naturalized citizens, then let's have the convention about it to amend the Constitution. I'm not really against the idea, but I strongly dislike the idea if its whole purpose is to get a specific person to be candidate.

 

[Vance]

Of course, this is all theory as it's never been applied before and hopefully never will. But still...you're wrong. The only people who can vote in the Senate are Senators and the President of the Senate in the event of a tie. The Speaker of the House is neither of these positions and can only be the later if he's nominated and confirmed.

You're misinterpretating what I said. If the time comes where the Speaker has to become Vice President (and there are only two occaisions for this), then, yes, he would have to resign his office in the House to actually become Vice President. The state would then have to decide (given their own Constitutional rights) when and how they would replace their lost house member. The majority party would also have to vote on a new speaker.

Now, since the Vice President's actual requirements and role is so minor (for the most part), all of the new elections and shuffling around is probably just seen as too much of a pain in the ass to do unless absolutely neccesary. (And, of course, today we would have the added wrinkle of the Vice President being a different PARTY than the President.)

As I said, as an intellectual exercise it may be interesting to see how it would really go down. But from a pratical matter, let's be very glad that it's not likely to happen.

 

[cultcross]

but I strongly dislike the idea if its whole purpose is to get a specific person to be candidate.

Why? They don't automatically become President just because they're eligible. There's an election first. And this sort of thing almost always changes because of specific examples where individuals challenge a rule. Someone who turns round and says 'well hang on, why can't I be on the ballot?'

Just as the issue of male privilege in the British royal family will ultimately end up being solved only when Will and Kate have a first-born girl, inequalities and issues in law don't correct themselves just because it would be right to - something needs to bring the issue to a head. A specific candidate being excluded for no other reason than his country of birth would be a perfect example.

 

[Vance]

Why? They don't automatically become President just because they're eligible.

Esay. Because it means that the 'cult of personality' matters more than the intent of the Constitution. If we're not prepared to look at all the ramifications, in perpetuity, of what we're doing with the law, for the sake of something popular in the short term, then we probably shouldn't do it.

If we act as a response to the law itself, then there's another issue. I'm willing to, in this instance, say it may be time to expand the law to include naturalized citizens (knowing full well that this will allow people that I will not politically agree with as well in the long run), but I will not be willing to say "I want the law expanded so I can vote for Arnold."

 

[Vance]

Already linked, 1001001. In 1947 the Congress passed a comprehensive list of sucession orders if case of disaster, assassination, or what have you. (Such as a very real possibility back then of Washington DC getting attacked.) Now, this law has some opponents based on the Constitutionality of it, but it has been in place since 1947 and was used and cited specifically to elevate Ford to the Vice Presidency after Agnew's resignation.

And has been pointed out, Section 2 has also been ingorned in the few times we've not had a VP at all (Johnson, Ford) due to the circumstances of their Presidential ascension. The point being, as I said, if Obama were to be removed from office, we would have President Biden and a VP Boehner. It would be a political mess, however, and we should all be thankful that this has not happened.

 

[1001001]

You might want to re-read the Constitution when you have some time....

The Federal Order of Succession isn't in the Constitution, but was a federal law passed in 1947 as part of a conern about the loss of government officials due to assassination or large-scale disasters.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_line_of_succession

The reason for the trial of sedition would be for the knowing fraud of putting up a foreign national as the American President.

But, please, be sure to personally attack me without knowing a fucking thing that you're talking about.

Uh...what?

The Presidential Succession plan in the event he is removed from office, is clearly delineated in the 25th Amendment to the Constitution:

Section 1. In case of the removal of the President from office or of his death or resignation, the Vice President shall become President.

Section 2. Whenever there is a vacancy in the office of the Vice President, the President shall nominate a Vice President who shall take office upon confirmation by a majority vote of both Houses of Congress.

The Speaker does not automatically become Vice President. Which is what you said. The line of succession you're talking about occurs under totally different circumstances.

It's not a personal attack to tell someone they are wrong. Especially when they are.

 

[J.T.B.]

Obama, however, spent millions of taxpayer dollars to keep the birth certificate sealed, ignored FOIA requests, and even ignored court orders.

Don't knock yourself out trying to find some credible basis for that codswallop. This "$2 million in legal fees" bunk has to do with all the Obama campaign legal bills including financial questions as well as a number of lawsuits that were dismissed as frivolous. And it has nothing to do with taxpayer money. See http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...-trump-claims-obama-has-spent-2-million-lega/

Since the duty of the Vice President is so minor, Johnson and the DNC at the time felt it best to simply not fill that seat for the time being. Nixon, as you casually ignored, did fill that seat with Ford after Agnew. Since Ford's term was so short, however, he went without a Vice President for the duration of his term.

The 25th Amendment was ratified between Johnson and Nixon. And you may want to look up the name "Nelson Rockefeller."

You are confusing the Presidential Succession Act, which deals with the event of a simultaneous vacancy in the offices of president and vice president, and a vacancy in the office of vice president alone, which is covered under the 25th Amendment.

--Justin

 

[TheBrew]

With the many of times that he has been flat out wrong here, I think that he might just be confused. Gerald Ford was never House Majority Leader (which would have been impossible since the Democrats controlled the House then). However he was Minority Leader, even though that has no bearing on succession.

Want to spit out more blatant falsehoods?

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

What most all birthers seem to be missing is that they are not experts in this realm (Maybe this comes from watching too many CSI programs which leads some into thinking that they themselves are sleuthy experts...!).

Unfortunately, CSI has screwed up a LOT of perceptions in our society about how investigations work. I've even heard of lawyers asking potential jurors if they watch shows like that, and ruling out jurors who do, because it's so bad.

You can bet that that first document was inspected and scrutinized by actual experts and proper authorities -both Republican and Democrat (not armchair conspiracy folks) or Obama could not have allowed to go on to become President.

This is what kept me from believing the birther thing. I mean, when I think about how much paperwork it takes me in my city just to get a damn library card (Seriously, people? You want to see my licence AND a bunch of my mail so I can get a library card?) I figured there had to be some agency that everyone who officially declares candidacy has to submit all of that stuff to (birth certificates, etc.) to have it vetted before they're allowed to be a candidate. (Going to guess it's the Federal Election Commission that handles that stuff, but I could be wrong.) It doesn't seem reasonable to me that they would let a major thing like that slip.

I would expect all prospective candidates to go through the normal bureaucratic process. I mean, I wanted McCain to win, but have no problem with the fact that he went through that process too, and had to be checked out to make sure he was indeed in a US territory at the time (and there certainly was reason to check that, given where his family was at the time). Anyway, I don't see how anyone could pull off a scam. I mean, look how quickly the fake documents got outed in Rathergate. A bunch of bloggers picked up on that (fonts unavailable during that time, and so on). Given that, I would expect experts not to be fooled for a second by anything that wasn't right.

 

[bigdaddy]

I figured there had to be some agency that everyone who officially declares candidacy has to submit all of that stuff to (birth certificates, etc.) to have it vetted before they're allowed to be a candidate. (Going to guess it's the Federal Election Commission that handles that stuff, but I could be wrong.) It doesn't seem reasonable to me that they would let a major thing like that slip.

Clearly the Federal Election Commission (Or whomever) was being paid off by Obama and the other blacks! It's so obvious!

 

[bluedana]

That Obama could have been elected without someone definitively proving that he was a natural born citizen is hilarious. It's not like he didn't hold a national office before becoming President.

Just to become a federal attorney, I had to have a full background check (and it has to be re-done every 5 years or so). Background investigators (typically FBI or USSS) personally visited every residence I've had, interviewed my neighbors and every roommate I've ever had, visited or confirmed every job I've EVER had (yes, even the waitressing gig I had when I was in high school), and did a full financial work up. I had to account for any relative who was born outside of the US (which is my whole family), as well as the ones within two degrees who currently live outside the US. I had to produce my marriage certificate, and admit to any drug use within the prior ten years (hello, freshman year of college!). Then I had to take a random (as in, report to X place six hours from now) drug test. And be fingerprinted. Then came the three hour interview, and the interviews of my friends, relatives, and references across the country.

As I said, it gets repeated and updated every five years.

So -- stealth Manchurian Candidate-type plot to put a Kenyan in the White House? Hilarious.

Oh, and:

Unfortunately, CSI has screwed up a LOT of perceptions in our society about how investigations work. I've even heard of lawyers asking potential jurors if they watch shows like that, and ruling out jurors who do, because it's so bad.

In most cases involving physical evidence (guns, drugs, robberies), we now ask judges to give "CSI instructions," so that jurors aren't looking for DNA and other bordering on sci-fi forensic testing.

 

[JarodRussell]

But, but, but Andy Dufresne got a fake birth certificate just by mailing some letters from prison!!!

 

[captcalhoun]

so, if there was a candidate who'd been born at, for example, Rhein-Main AFB in Germany in the 1970s when it was a US base, would they be eligible or not? it's US territory, their parents are Americans...