Revisiting Star Trek TOS/TAS...

[RAMA]

Wow, little bit of venom there for a fictional character.

Or they were desperate to maintain the "status quo". The more off-worlders that learn about it the more likely someone is going to shut it down.

It does seem the game has stifled their growth as a civilization.

In this particular case, the Eminians acted more nobly than Fox did in trying to protect the Enterprise.

By no means do I think the Eminians are worthy of admiration, however...unlike Kirk's assumption that the culture in the "Apple" was an arrested culture, the Eminians exhibit some advanced technology, and their way of life seems to work for them, preserving much of their society.

RAMA

At a cost of 1.5 billion lives.

The Earth has lost 100s of millions of lives to war since 1900...many millions more injured, displaced, raped. So should a race of beings 100-200 years more advanced than us come to Earth and create a treaty port in order to keep us in line? Hmmmmm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_and_anthropogenic_disasters_by_death_toll

Also, as devil's advocate...would REAL war have cost more lives? We have historical precedent in Star Trek series for wars lasting up to 500 years. THE UFP and Romulans have been enemies for 300+ years. The Klingons have had on and off wars with the UFP costing MILLIONS of lives. The Organians came in and put them in line for awhile...

RAMA

 

[Warped9]

^^ I think this is the sticking point thats getting messed up here.

The Federation couldn't care squat about Eminians and Vendikans offing each other. But they are damned well going to care about "thousands of lives lost" that are Federation or allied citizens. If ships are disappearing in that sector due to hostile action from the Eminian system then the Feds are definately going to act on it.

 

[RAMA]

^^ I think this is the sticking point thats getting messed up here.

The Federation couldn't care squat about Eminians and Vendikans offing each other. But they are damned well going to care about "thousands of lives lost" that are Federation or allied citizens. If ships are disappearing in that sector due to hostile action from the Eminian system then the Feds are definately going to act on it.

There is no evidence of any ship lost other than the Valiant. If they lost other ships after that incident and again after the Enterprise left, they'd be doing so contrary to any sensible argument, since they have been warned away from that planetary system, and space is large enough that no one HAS to go into that system.

RAMA

 

[Warped9]

^^ I think this is the sticking point thats getting messed up here.

The Federation couldn't care squat about Eminians and Vendikans offing each other. But they are damned well going to care about "thousands of lives lost" that are Federation or allied citizens. If ships are disappearing in that sector due to hostile action from the Eminian system then the Feds are definately going to act on it.

There is no evidence of any ship lost other than the Valiant. If they lost other ships after that incident and again after the Enterprise left, they'd be doing so contrary to any sensible argument, since they have been warned away from that planetary system, and space is large enough that no one HAS to go into that system.

RAMA

The problem is the episode doesn't give us enough information...or at least not enough to your liking. For me what we're told tells me that Fox is talking about the loss of Federation and allied lives and not about Eminian and Vendikan lives. They're not even sure why the Valiant went silent until they get to Eminiar 7. And the impression is that this is a largely unexplored sector and full of unknowns.

 

[plynch]

CAN somebody set up a poll on whether you woulda mucked up the computer war set-up they had going on eminiar and vendikar, or would you have left it the way it was? I so want to vote in that.

But -

I have no know how of how to know how to set up such a poll.

 

[BillJ]

CAN somebody set up a poll on whether you woulda mucked up the computer war set-up they had going on eminiar and vendikar, or would you have left it the way it was? I so want to vote in that.

But -

I have no know how of how to know how to set up such a poll.

I wouldn't care as long as third parties weren't being executed.

 

[Captain Robert April]

^^ I think this is the sticking point thats getting messed up here.

The Federation couldn't care squat about Eminians and Vendikans offing each other. But they are damned well going to care about "thousands of lives lost" that are Federation or allied citizens. If ships are disappearing in that sector due to hostile action from the Eminian system then the Feds are definately going to act on it.

There is no evidence of any ship lost other than the Valiant. If they lost other ships after that incident and again after the Enterprise left, they'd be doing so contrary to any sensible argument, since they have been warned away from that planetary system, and space is large enough that no one HAS to go into that system.

RAMA

So what the frak is the Federation supposed to do? Just let it keep happening? SOMEBODY clearly needed to step up and at least find out what the hell is going on in that sector that's costing so many lives, and Enterprise drew that duty.

Oh, and the Prime Directive only applies to developing cultures with no knowledge of other space faring civilizations and/or the capability of encountering them. Since a) they're clearly a developed culture and b) they've also been encountering other space faring cultures -- and killing them -- General Order One does not apply in the least.

 

[Warped9]

CAN somebody set up a poll on whether you woulda mucked up the computer war set-up they had going on eminiar and vendikar, or would you have left it the way it was? I so want to vote in that.

If I'm the Federation and my citizens ain't getting killed then I couldn't care less. It's hands off. But if they're executing my people just to keep each other happy then I'd definitely act on it. I'd either lay down the law on both of 'em or crash their computers.

Now let's say the Enterprise got away with no harm done and Fox reports back that nothin' doin'---the Eminians aren't interested. Oh, and by the way they did execute the Valiant's crew fifty years ago. Then I suppose likely the UFP could really only just warn folks to stay out of that sector or enter at their own risk. I'm not sure the Feds would go in to bust things up because of the loss of one ship...unless they had evidence that it was more than one ship and the Eminians and Vendikans were directly responsible for all those thousands of lives lost.

For myself there is also the question that if the Valiant was also a Starfleet vessel then how could that Captain have so easily capitulated. Unless, perhaps, the ship was destroyed in orbit much as the Eminians tried to do with the Enterprise and the initial landing parties executed.

 

[RAMA]

^^ I think this is the sticking point thats getting messed up here.

The Federation couldn't care squat about Eminians and Vendikans offing each other. But they are damned well going to care about "thousands of lives lost" that are Federation or allied citizens. If ships are disappearing in that sector due to hostile action from the Eminian system then the Feds are definately going to act on it.

There is no evidence of any ship lost other than the Valiant. If they lost other ships after that incident and again after the Enterprise left, they'd be doing so contrary to any sensible argument, since they have been warned away from that planetary system, and space is large enough that no one HAS to go into that system.

RAMA

So what the frak is the Federation supposed to do? Just let it keep happening? SOMEBODY clearly needed to step up and at least find out what the hell is going on in that sector that's costing so many lives, and Enterprise drew that duty.

Oh, and the Prime Directive only applies to developing cultures with no knowledge of other space faring civilizations and/or the capability of encountering them. Since a) they're clearly a developed culture and b) they've also been encountering other space faring cultures -- and killing them -- General Order One does not apply in the least.

Even if you are an equal, you can't go off half cocked and march into England and declare they need to sign a treaty with you so you can set up a treaty port...a self-defined imperialistic tool. I'm sure England and their nuclear subs, and aircraft will take very kindly to this "request".

Honestly the UFP has no business going in and deciding if a culture is a developing one then deciding to change it, especially if it is less advanced...observation, study is one thing, direct involvement is another. If the planet asked for help, and they are like the Eminians in development, a negotiation might be reached, and then the UFP could step in...on the other hand this is also tenuous, since Vendikar is involved in the equation, and they'd either have to be part of the treaty, or they'd have to reject UFP involvement. As it was, they warned them away!!!! Even Kirk in my transcript quote said its THEIR planet, and he wanted to leave.

Edit: Sadly, after much thought, I've taken a star away from my Taste of Armageddon rating. Reducing the 10 5-star eps from the first season to 9. I don't think I've changed a TOS rating in yrs.

RAMA

 

[Warped9]

"Errand Of Mercy" *****

Kirk and Spock are stranded on a backwards world in the midst of a Klingon occupation force.

Getting back on track. And this one is excellent! This is our first introduction to the Klingons as best personified by John Colicos' terrific portrayal of Klingon Commander Kor. This is a really good story with a lot of good moments. But much of it really revolves around the wonderful interaction between Kirk and Kor.

These Klingons are a refreshing change from the comic opera Klingons of much of the films and much of the TNG era and beyond. They're certainly not always spouting on about honour for one thing and they don't growl. They're ruthless, arrogant and also intelligent and clever. They've also got a sense of humour. There is a downside in that TOS couldn't afford to go more elaborate with the costumes and makeup and more particularly John Colicos got the most attention in terms of makeup. Except for Kor's aide it's best to try not noticing the Klingons in the background too closely.

Before we learn of the Organians' true nature it's curious how such a backward seeming people could be so nonplussed at Kirk and Spock's appearance and open reference to the Federation and other worlds. Of course part of the answer may be in Spock's description of Organia earlier on before they arrive---it suggests that Organian had been known of and visited before by Federation or other races quite some time before.

I also have to wonder about the quality of these Klingons' eyesight. Interesting that Kor initially accepts Kirk as an Organian even when Kirk's demeanor and haircut are clearly not native like.

Nonetheless this is a fun and engaging episode.

 

[BillJ]

Even if you are an equal, you can't go off half cocked and march into England and declare they need to sign a treaty with you so you can set up a treaty port...a self-defined imperialistic tool. I'm sure England and their nuclear subs, and aircraft will take very kindly to this "request".

Now show where Fox went into the Eminian council chamber and demanded a treaty? He ordered the Enterprise to ignore the 'code 710' but never once did he order a hostile stance be taken against them. As a matter of fact he ordered Scott to resume a peaceful stance.

 

[RAMA]

"Errand Of Mercy" *****

Kirk and Spock are stranded on a backwards world in the midst of a Klingon occupation force.

Getting back on track. And this one is excellent! This is our first introduction to the Klingons as best personified by John Colicos' terrific portrayal of Klingon Commander Kor. This is a really good story with a lot of good moments. But much of it really revolves around the wonderful interaction between Kirk and Kor.

These Klingons are a refreshing change from the comic opera Klingons of much of the films and much of the TNG era and beyond. They're certainly not always spouting on about honour for one thing and they don't growl. They're ruthless, arrogant and also intelligent and clever. They've also got a sense of humour. There is a downside in that TOS couldn't afford to go more elaborate with the costumes and makeup and more particularly John Colicos got the most attention in terms of makeup. Except for Kor's aide it's best to try not noticing the Klingons in the background too closely.

Before we learn of the Organians' true nature it's curious how such a backward seeming people could be so nonplussed at Kirk and Spock's appearance and open reference to the Federation and other worlds. Of course part of the answer may be in Spock's description of Organia earlier on before they arrive---it suggests that Organian had been known of and visited before by Federation or other races quite some time before.

I also have to wonder about the quality of these Klingons' eyesight. Interesting that Kor initially accepts Kirk as an Organian even when Kirk's demeanor and haircut are clearly not native like.

Nonetheless this is a fun and engaging episode.

OK so technically the UFP breaks the Prime Directive here (by appearances), they go in to a primitive planet and offer them advanced tech! Horrors...but at least the Organians are beyond cultural measure.

Always liked this episode! My one irritation over the years....not seeing the Klingons in orbit....enter TOS-R...solved!! ***** stars

http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x26hd/errandofmercyhd152.jpg

RAMA

 

[BillJ]

"Errand Of Mercy" *****

Kirk and Spock are stranded on a backwards world in the midst of a Klingon occupation force.

Getting back on track. And this one is excellent! This is our first introduction to the Klingons as best personified by John Colicos' terrific portrayal of Klingon Commander Kor. This is a really good story with a lot of good moments. But much of it really revolves around the wonderful interaction between Kirk and Kor.

These Klingons are a refreshing change from the comic opera Klingons of much of the films and much of the TNG era and beyond. They're certainly not always spouting on about honour for one thing and they don't growl. They're ruthless, arrogant and also intelligent and clever. They've also got a sense of humour. There is a downside in that TOS couldn't afford to go more elaborate with the costumes and makeup and more particularly John Colicos got the most attention in terms of makeup. Except for Kor's aide it's best to try not noticing the Klingons in the background too closely.

Before we learn of the Organians' true nature it's curious how such a backward seeming people could be so nonplussed at Kirk and Spock's appearance and open reference to the Federation and other worlds. Of course part of the answer may be in Spock's description of Organia earlier on before they arrive---it suggests that Organian had been known of and visited before by Federation or other races quite some time before.

I also have to wonder about the quality of these Klingons' eyesight. Interesting that Kor initially accepts Kirk as an Organian even when Kirk's demeanor and haircut are clearly not native like.

Nonetheless this is a fun and engaging episode.

OK so technically the UFP breaks the Prime Directive here (by appearances), they go in to a primitive planet and offer them advanced tech! Horrors...but at least the Organians are beyond cultural measure.

Always liked this episode! My one irritation over the years....not seeing the Klingons in orbit....enter TOS-R...solved!! ***** stars

http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x26hd/errandofmercyhd152.jpg

RAMA

Five stars.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

My one irritation over the years....not seeing the Klingons in orbit

Being as how Errand of Mercy aired eight months before the design of the D7 was finalized, I never had a problem not seeing any Klingon ships here. If there had been any shown, they would have looked completely different.

Actually, the remastered shots kind of ruin the episode (again). Problem not solved.

 

[RAMA]

My one irritation over the years....not seeing the Klingons in orbit

Being as how Errand of Mercy aired eight months before the design of the D7 was finalized, I never had a problem not seeing any Klingon ships here. If there had been any shown, they would have looked completely different.

Actually, the remastered shots kind of ruin the episode (again). Problem not solved.

Not every episode of TOS was improved with new FX--though every effect was improved with the new ones--this is one episode that was.

YES, I know it hadn't been designed yet..........but I wanted to see them, it makes the scope bigger, visualizes the threat...I didn't need to see a battle, it was enough they were there.

What does it matter if they would have looked different????????? Matt Jeffries would probably have used the same background and methods to make the ship. We know what it looked like afterwards in TOS...that's all I need to know.

RAMA

 

[CorporalCaptain]

though every effect was improved with the new ones

No way.

 

[RAMA]

though every effect was improved with the new ones

No way.

In a technical sense (1080p matching resolution, better shot, better filmed modern FX, better lit through CGI, cleaned up prints), a resounding yes. In an artistic sense, prob 97-98% of the shots are (selection of shots, angles, matching 60s detail, et al)...by personal preference, well that's your call. I'll go with the two out of three on this one.

RAMA

 

[CorporalCaptain]

though every effect was improved with the new ones

No way.

In a technical sense (1080p matching resolution, better shot, better filmed modern FX, better lit through CGI, cleaned up prints), a resounding yes. In an artistic sense, prob 97-98% of the shots are (selection of shots, angles, matching 60s detail, et al)...by personal preference, well that's your call. I'll go with the two out of three on this one.

RAMA

Spend your money the way you want. I opted out. I'm sure there are other threads to have that discussion.

 

[RAMA]

Even if you are an equal, you can't go off half cocked and march into England and declare they need to sign a treaty with you so you can set up a treaty port...a self-defined imperialistic tool. I'm sure England and their nuclear subs, and aircraft will take very kindly to this "request".

Now show where Fox went into the Eminian council chamber and demanded a treaty? He ordered the Enterprise to ignore the 'code 710' but never once did he order a hostile stance be taken against them. As a matter of fact he ordered Scott to resume a peaceful stance.

http://www.trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=4927994&postcount=181

 

[Warped9]

I haven't seen most of TOS-R although I've seen quite a few screencaps. Some of what I've seen is visually interesting, some good, but I've been lukewarm to disappointed with a lot of what I've seen. As has been mentioned already this really isn't the thread to go too deep into it.

That said I will reiterate that I'm not watching the TOS-R versions of these primarily because I want to see them as they were intended with what they had at hand. The way they told these stories is how I grew up with them and they were able to effectively engage my imagination as is.

Part of what bothers me about TOS-R is the fact that to my eyes it doesn't look seamless. It looks like two wholly different productions stitched together---which is exactly what it is. I'm often jarred out of the flow of the story because I'm seeing f/x sequences most of which I know couldn't have been done in the '60s even under the very best of conditions. That a lot of folks claim otherwise doesn't impress or influence me in the slightest.