Revisiting Star Trek TOS/TAS...

[GNDN]

The new versions are integral to the episodes now. I can't seperate one from the other, especially when they make significant improvements to the show. I'll restrict the commentary only where this occurs.

Integral to your viewing of the show perhaps, but not the show itself. The episodes stood on their own for nearly 40 years with no enhancement and I and many others were perfectly content.

The new FX, to me, are primarily a novelty. Some are fun to see and do contribute, others are distracting, to me. I know there are plenty of opinions on either side of that. Not arguing that I am right, only that there is no right answer. Thankfully the originals have been preserved.

The ship shots are very hit or miss.

They're not hit or miss at all, they always used the same CGI model after they modified the first one. The only thing "hit or miss" is the understanding people bring to the FX...some complain the new FX are there, then go on to complain that they are not state of the art...well the reason for this is to make them more seamless to the 60s episode(duh). Using Enteprise or even Phase II type FX would not fit with the episodes! The other side of the coin suggests they didn't go far enough with the FX! Well, I think they did a rather measured remastering, though I definitely would have made more changes if I had been doing it.

Merely expressing an opinion. Just because the model was the same, doesn't mean that concept or execution of the shots were always consistent. The ship and certain of the objects it encountered at times appear less realistic (or at least less convincing) to me. Heck, the Amoeba in "The Immunity Syndrome" looks like a Flash Animation in TOS-R, so I do feel the execution was hit and miss.

The original VFX have been a part of the show since the beginning, so especially for anyone who's seen Star Trek before, the CGI will immediately call attention to itself.

My point is that when Warped9 had a question about the new VFX (possibly prompted by the misleading widescreen shot from COTEOF) he started a new thread to ask the question, so while I have contributed to this tangent on new VFX, I feel it may be more appropriately discussed in the thread about TOS-R, and not one devoted to an analysis of the episodes with their original FX intact. I'll be bowing out of further TOS vs. TOS-R debate in this thread.

 

[RAMA]

The new versions are integral to the episodes now. I can't seperate one from the other, especially when they make significant improvements to the show. I'll restrict the commentary only where this occurs.

Integral to your viewing of the show perhaps, but not the show itself. The episodes stood on their own for nearly 40 years with no enhancement and I and many others were perfectly content.

The new FX, to me, are primarily a novelty. Some are fun to see and do contribute, others are distracting, to me. I know there are plenty of opinions on either side of that. Not arguing that I am right, only that there is no right answer. Thankfully the originals have been preserved.

The ship shots are very hit or miss.

They're not hit or miss at all, they always used the same CGI model after they modified the first one. The only thing "hit or miss" is the understanding people bring to the FX...some complain the new FX are there, then go on to complain that they are not state of the art...well the reason for this is to make them more seamless to the 60s episode(duh). Using Enteprise or even Phase II type FX would not fit with the episodes! The other side of the coin suggests they didn't go far enough with the FX! Well, I think they did a rather measured remastering, though I definitely would have made more changes if I had been doing it.

Merely expressing an opinion. Just because the model was the same, doesn't mean that concept or execution of the shots were always consistent. The ship and certain of the objects it encountered at times appear less realistic (or at least less convincing) to me. Heck, the Amoeba in "The Immunity Syndrome" looks like a Flash Animation in TOS-R, so I do feel the execution was hit and miss.

The original VFX have been a part of the show since the beginning, so especially for anyone who's seen Star Trek before, the CGI will immediately call attention to itself.

My point is that when Warped9 had a question about the new VFX (possibly prompted by the misleading widescreen shot from COTEOF) he started a new thread to ask the question, so while I have contributed to this tangent on new VFX, I feel it may be more appropriately discussed in the thread about TOS-R, and not one devoted to an analysis of the episodes with their original FX intact. I'll be bowing out of further TOS vs. TOS-R debate in this thread.

I'm more than happy to move the rest of the TOS-R convo to the other thread...but people keep responding here.

Edit: I moved my last response to that thread.

 

[Captain Robert April]

A better analogy to the Enterprise going to Eminiar VII in defiance of Code 710 is the historical incident it was actually based on, Admiral Perry and the US fleet steaming into Tokyo Harbor in 1853, for essentially the exact same reason, ships and lives were being lost due to piracy in the region and the US felt they needed to establish a presence, whether the xenophobic Japanese liked it or not.

 

[Brian]

Except the episode didn't say anything about anyone not of Eminiar/Vendikar being lost, except for the Valiant, 50 years earlier.

The analogy would hold if the US fleet had steamed into Tokyo harbor to establish a US port in the midst of a Japanese civil war.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Captain Robert April, what's your basis for claiming that A Taste of Armageddon was specifically based on the so-called "gunboat diplomacy" of Commodore Perry in Japan? (Matthew C. Perry was a Commodore, not an Admiral, by the way.) Did Robert Hamner et al. state this anywhere?

 

[GSchnitzer]

Captain Robert April, what's your basis for claiming that A Taste of Armageddon was specifically based on the so-called "gunboat diplomacy" of Commodore Perry in Japan? (Matthew C. Perry was a Commodore, not an Admiral, by the way.) Did Robert Hamner et al. state this anywhere?

Kirk remarks "I am not accustomed to taking part in gunboat diplomacy" in the Revised Final Draft script for "A Taste of Armageddon" (December 12, 1966). You can find it here:

http://www.fastcopyinc.com/orionpress/articles/a_taste_of_armageddon.htm

 

[Warped9]

Except the episode didn't say anything about anyone not of Eminiar/Vendikar being lost, except for the Valiant, 50 years earlier.

Wrong. At the beginning of the story Ambassador Fox clearly states that thousands of lives have been lost in that sector and he isn't talking about the Eminians and Vendikans. And there's no starship with "thousands of lives" aboard.


“Operation—Annihilate” ****

Deadly parasites overrun a Federation colony world and threaten to spread further.

I actually quite like this episode, but there are a couple of flubs in it. One in particular has to do with testing what kind of light will kill the creature. They are in such a hurry to conduct their testes that they don't even stop to analyze their results before moving onto the next stage? And even then I don't see how there would have been any harm in rigging up some protective goggles for Spock at that stage. I see it as sloppy writing, but it seems more deliberate just so they can spring the bit about Spock's inner eyelid on us after pulling at our emotional empathy a bit more.

Other than that I don't really see anything wrong with this episode, but it just doesn't make it over the top for me. I know the aliens were probably something simple like plastic gag vomit or something, but I do think they look effectively alien and otherworldly, not immediately identifiable as something we'd be somewhat familiar with.

Oh, and Kirk's sister-in-law was rather nice looking.

 

[Warped9]

Firstly, lets look at some stats.

Overall Rating = 127 of a potential 145 = 87.5% = average rating of 4.37 of 5
***** Excellent (16 episodes = 55.1%)
“Where No Man Has Gone Before"
“The Corbomite Maneuver”
“The Enemy Within”
“The Naked Time”
“Balance Of Terror”
“What Are Little Girls Made Of?”
“Dagger Of The Mind”
“The Galileo Seven”
“Court Martial”
“Shore Leave"
“Arena”
“Tomorrow Is Yesterday”
“A Taste Of Armageddon”
“Space Seed”
“Errand Of Mercy”
“The City On The Edge Of Forever”

**** Good (8 episodes = 27.5%)
“The Man Trap”
“Charlie X”
“The Menagerie” (Part I)
“The Menagerie” (Part II)
“The Squire Of Gothos”
“This Side Of Paradise”
“The Devil In The Dark”
“Operation—Annihilate”

*** Fair (5 episodes = 17.2%)
“Mudd’s Women”
“Miri”
“The Conscience Of The King”
“The Alternative Factor”
“The Return Of The Archons”

** Poor (0 episodes = 0%)

* Bad (0 episodes = 0%)

I'm sure someone out there is going to accuse me of being biased, but in Season 1 although Star Trek does stumble occasionally it never really drops the ball in any significant way. Out of twenty-nine episodes there isn't a bad or even genuinely poor episode in the lot. Wow!

Not too long ago I became familiar with the original The Outer Limits (predating TOS by a few years) and from that one can clearly see that Star Trek in the early goings had very much of an Outer Limits feel to it. But Star Trek goes one better than The Outer Limits on at least two points. Firstly TOS had generally better production standards overall (although there's a lot of good stuff and a helluva lot of imagination in The Outer Limits) and TOS benefits from a regular cast. Being familiar with a good and well executed cast allows us to be more easily drawn into the stories which leads to greater emotional empathy and impact for the viewer. Also TOS in its first season benefited from generally consistent writing and acting---rather few offbeat moments or performances.

Season 1 delivers pretty much everything or at least most of what the show's premise promised: action/adventure, drama, some humour, range of stories and even periodic allegory. And even with limited f/x resources it still managed to give us non human, or at least non humanoid, lifeforms, the most visually prominent being the Salt Vampire, the Gorn, the Horta and the insanity inducing parasites. We've no idea what Trelane or the Metrons or the Organians really look like.

If Star Trek had been cancelled after its first season it would have been a travesty because here we have not only one of the very best seasons overall in the Trek franchise (and I'd argue the best), but it is one of the very best seasons overall for science fiction on television, period.

I don't want to derail this thread before I move on to Season 2, but when I think of Star Trek at its best and what one would do well to emulate when embarking upon a project with Trek's name on it, particularly TOS, then Season 1 holds much of Star Trek at its very best. This is Star Trek done the way it should be done, the way it deserves to be done.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

This is Star Trek done the way it should be done, the way it deserves to be done.

I completely agree. Despite the fact that TOS season two has some excellent episodes, and my personal favorite Star Trek episode in particular, season two also has more episodes that are, shall we say, not good.

I especially agree that this is one of the very best seasons overall for science fiction on television. For me, the only other season in a different Trek series that has a chance of competing, as an aggregate whole, is TNG season three.

Wait till we get to TOS season three though, because that's going to be another story!

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Captain Robert April, what's your basis for claiming that A Taste of Armageddon was specifically based on the so-called "gunboat diplomacy" of Commodore Perry in Japan? (Matthew C. Perry was a Commodore, not an Admiral, by the way.) Did Robert Hamner et al. state this anywhere?

Kirk remarks "I am not accustomed to taking part in gunboat diplomacy" in the Revised Final Draft script for "A Taste of Armageddon" (December 12, 1966). You can find it here:

http://www.fastcopyinc.com/orionpress/articles/a_taste_of_armageddon.htm

I see. And this line was dropped from the episode.

Now, based on this, I agree it's reasonable to wonder whether the authors either were thinking of Commodore Perry or were inspired by his exploits. The parallels are indeed striking.

A better analogy to the Enterprise going to Eminiar VII in defiance of Code 710 is the historical incident it was actually based on, Admiral Perry and the US fleet steaming into Tokyo Harbor in 1853, for essentially the exact same reason, ships and lives were being lost due to piracy in the region and the US felt they needed to establish a presence, whether the xenophobic Japanese liked it or not.

However, none of this yet is sufficient evidence to conclude that the authors did specifically mean Commodore Perry. You need to cite something showing that the authors were specifically thinking of him, rather than any of the numerous other contexts, including those in the 20th Century, in which the term "gunboat diplomacy" has been applied.

I'm truly interested in any source you can find that backs up your claim, because it would go deeper than anything I've found.

 

[Warped9]

This is Star Trek done the way it should be done, the way it deserves to be done.

I completely agree. Despite the fact that TOS season two has some excellent episodes, and my personal favorite Star Trek episode in particular, season two also has more episodes that are, shall we say, not good.

I especially agree that this is one of the very best seasons overall for science fiction on television. For me, the only other season in a different Trek series that has a chance of competing, as an aggregate whole, is TNG season three.

Wait till we get to TOS season three though, because that's going to be another story!

If TOS had been canceled after Season 1 it likely would have become a cult favourite much like The Outer Limits. It wouldn't have had enough episodes to have been picked up for regular syndication, or at least not for long. And if it was remembered decades later than it could have been resurrected as a jacked up reboot with more contemporary sensibilities much like Lost In Space and other dimly recalled (by the general public) '60s television shows.

Hmm...hey, that actually happened anyway.

 

[Vasquez Rocks]

“Operation—Annihilate” ****

Deadly parasites overrun a Federation colony world and threaten to spread further.

I actually quite like this episode, but there are a couple of flubs in it. One in particular has to do with testing what kind of light will kill the creature. They are in such a hurry to conduct their testes that they don't even stop to analyze their results before moving onto the next stage? And even then I don't see how there would have been any harm in rigging up some protective goggles for Spock at that stage. I see it as sloppy writing, but it seems more deliberate just so they can spring the bit about Spock's inner eyelid on us after pulling at our emotional empathy a bit more.

Other than that I don't really see anything wrong with this episode, but it just doesn't make it over the top for me. I know the aliens were probably something simple like plastic gag vomit or something, but I do think they look effectively alien and otherworldly, not immediately identifiable as something we'd be somewhat familiar with.

Oh, and Kirk's sister-in-law was rather nice looking.

I didn't like how they just dropped the whole storyline of Kirk's nephew so abruptly at the end. Where and who did he go and live with? Both his parents are dead and nothing is really said.

 

[Warped9]

^^ I know what you mean, but I guess it came down to getting what they thought was important onscreen in the time alloted and there wasn't any time left for anything else.

Of course we have no idea, but it's possible Kirk's mother was still alive (and Kirk's father, too, for all we know) and or aunts and uncles on either Kirk's side or his sister-in-law's. As such it's safe enough to assume that some family would be able and willing to assume care for the boy.

 

[Botany Bay]

I didn't like how they just dropped the whole storyline of Kirk's nephew so abruptly at the end. Where and who did he go and live with? Both his parents are dead and nothing is really said.

INT. BRIDGE – ANGLE – KIRK, PETER
​

The boy Peter is now bright and well, dressed in a small version of the Enterprise uniform. He is smiling up at Kirk as the Captain lays a hand on his shoulder.
​

KIRK
You’re sure you don’t want to go back
to Earth to live with your grandmother?

​

PETER
I’m sure, sir. Dad thought Deneva here
is the best place in the whole galaxy.

​

KIRK
Well, your father’s partner said he
and his wife always wanted a boy.

PETER
(saddened)
They’re not like Mom and Dad...
but...

​

KIRK
(nods)
No one ever is, Petey.
(pats on shoulder)
Run along; they’re waiting for
you in the Transporter Room.​

The boy formally shakes hands with Kirk, exits to the elevator.​

ANOTHER ANGLE – INCLUDING SCOTT​

The Engineer moves in beside Kirk.​

SCOTT
He might want to go to the Academy
later on, sir. Looks like a bright lad.​

KIRK
I hope he decides not to.
(turns to Scott)
If there was no other choice, Scotty, I
would have had to give the order to
destroy this planet. I don’t want him
to ever have to make that choice.

SCOTT
(nods, understanding)
Yes, sir.

​

This scene was actually filmed, but cut. You can see a pic from it at this fantastic site.
​

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Gawd, Star Trek dodged a bullet there. The dialog is OK, but the uniform? OMFG!

 

[Brian]

Except the episode didn't say anything about anyone not of Eminiar/Vendikar being lost, except for the Valiant, 50 years earlier.

Wrong. At the beginning of the story Ambassador Fox clearly states that thousands of lives have been lost in that sector and he isn't talking about the Eminians and Vendikans. And there's no starship with "thousands of lives" aboard.

http://trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=4932966&postcount=226

 

[BillJ]

Except the episode didn't say anything about anyone not of Eminiar/Vendikar being lost, except for the Valiant, 50 years earlier.

Wrong. At the beginning of the story Ambassador Fox clearly states that thousands of lives have been lost in that sector and he isn't talking about the Eminians and Vendikans. And there's no starship with "thousands of lives" aboard.

http://trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=4932966&postcount=226

The only thing it shows is that the two Starfleet ships are sharing similar fates.

SPOCK: We know very little about them. Their civilisation is advanced. They've had space flight for several centuries, but they've never ventured beyond their own solar system. When first contacted more than fifty years ago, Eminiar Seven was at war with its nearest neighbour.

While open, other ships could've been captured by the spacefaring navies of the Eminiar VII and Vendikar and taken to the respective worlds and executed.

 

[Brian]

It shows that two ships are sharing similar fates, implying that no others have had that fate. The targeting of off-worlders is a momentous and troubling happening for them.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

http://trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=4932966&postcount=226

So?

In the first palce, you have no way of knowing that other ships were not destroyed by Vendikar. The line, "Just as it happened fifty years ago," could simply mean that Eminiar VII destroyed the Valiant, while Vendikar is responsible for the deaths of thousands of others.

Secondly, many things "can be inferred." The Enterprise has sent a message to Eminiar VII. The reply is code, 7-10, that Kirk can interpret. Therefore, "it can be inferred from the dialog" that Eminiar VII recognizes the Enterprise and the Valiant as being from the same Federation. Therefore, the line, "Just as it happened fifty years ago," might also simply mean that the control operator, Sar, was aware that the Enterprise is suffering the same fate as one of her sister ships sent from the same Federation.

 

[Brian]

And Fox's line about thousands killed could mean Eminians and Vendikarans.

So everyone is inferring to their conclusions. Then why discuss it any further? There is no on-screen evidence which conclusively points to either side of this debate. Done.