Revisiting Star Trek TOS/TAS...

[RAMA]

What? Apparently you didn't read what I wrote...the episode has nothing to do about commerce (and that statement is debatable in itself also...that commerce is more important than non-interference) the deaths Fox mentioned apparently are all on-planet with the exception of one starship 50 yrs before...the central issue is that the UFP wants a SPACEPORT!! That's why they want the treaty...non-interference be damned. This is an independent world, you're talking as if the UFP has a right to take it over. That's just crazy, its not how the UFP is supposed to operate. The UFP as represented by FOX is one slight level abovethe Klingons in Errand of Mercy in this episode.

RAMA

You seem to misremember the episode...

FOX: Captain, in the past twenty years, thousands of lives have been lost in this quadrant. Lives that could have been saved if the Federation had a treaty port here. We mean to have that port and I'm here to get it.

Nothing about any of those lives being lost planet side.

If you are seeing increased traffic in the area... you can't allow these guys to act like fuckwads, executing innocent people who happen to wander into the wrong area of space.

Fox had the right intentions.

I mis-remembered the episode in the sense I didn't recall the extremity of Fox's attitude...or I glossed over it the last time I watched it a few yrs ago because I knew what the final msg was...In any case Fox does NOT have the best intentions, he has the absolute WORST intention...making the UFP appear like interplanetary thugs to increase their own power. Most distasteful.

UHURA: Captain, message coming in from Eminiar Seven. Sir, it's code seven-ten.
KIRK: Are you sure?
UHURA: Positive. It repeats over and over.
FOX: Is that supposed to mean something?
KIRK: Code seven-ten means under no circumstances are we to approach that planet. No circumstances what so ever.
FOX: You will disregard that signal, Captain.
KIRK: Mister Fox, it is their planet.
FOX: Captain, in the past twenty years, thousands of lives have been lost in this quadrant. Lives that could have been saved if the Federation had a treaty port here. We mean to have that port and I'm here to get it.
KIRK: By disregarding code seven-ten, you might well involve us in an interplanetary war.
FOX: I'm quite prepared to take that risk.
KIRK: You are. I'm thinking about this ship, my crew.
FOX: I have my orders, Captain, and now you have yours. You will proceed on course. Achieve orbit status and just leave the rest to me. You're well aware that my mission gives me the power of command. I now exercise it. You will proceed on course. That's a direct order.
(He leaves.)
SPOCK: In view of code seven-ten, Captain, may I suggest
KIRK: Yes, Mister Spock. This is the Captain. Condition Yellow Alert. Phaser crews stand by. Deflector shields up. We're going in. Peacefully, I hope. But peacefully or not, we're going in.
Captain's log, stardate 3192.5. Now in standard orbit around planet Eminiar Seven. My orders are clear. We must establish diplomatic relations at all cost. Preparing to beam down to planet surface.

NOWHERE does it claim that any lives are lost other than planetary war between two planets. Apparently you were confused by the fact that ONE starship had been destroyed as part of their war. Even the term "Treaty Port" is one of imperialism, originating when the Western Powers forcibly opened up Chinese Port cities in the 19th century!

Further...

SPOCK: We know very little about them. Their civilisation is advanced. They've had space flight for several centuries, but they've never ventured beyond their own solar system. When first contacted more than fifty years ago, Eminiar Seven was at war with its nearest neighbour.

They have every right to expect Vendikar and Eminiar VII are in a war between each other.

By forcing a situation rather than investigation and non-interference based on Eminiar's Sovereign request, the UFP become criminals. If every TOS episode followed this pattern, it would have been a MUCH different show.

http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/23.htm

RAMA

 

[BillJ]

By forcing a situation rather than investigation and non-interference based on Eminiar's Sovereign request, the UFP become criminals. If every TOS episode followed this pattern, it would have been a MUCH different show.

RAMA

So it's better to spy on the advanced culture than try to approach them as equals? All the while, they continue to execute innocents who happen to wander into their space.

 

[BillJ]

They have every right to expect Vendikar and Eminiar VII are in a war between each other


RAMA

So a damaged civilian liner with thousands of passengers accidentally wanders into their system, the Emininans have the right to execute them?

In each instance the leaders of the two worlds could've gotten on the Batphone with one another and explained that the crafts that were deemed "casualties" were not part of the war. But neither did.

There are times when progress of a larger community is going to force a smaller community to change their ways.

Once you have a government executing outsiders for doing nothing more than being in the "wrong place at the wrong time", it's time to end their game of Missile Command and tell them to grow up.

For some reason the above posted before the post I quoted from... weird.

 

[RAMA]

They have every right to expect Vendikar and Eminiar VII are in a war between each other


RAMA

So a damaged civilian liner with thousands of passengers accidentally wanders into their system, the Emininans have the right to execute them?

In each instance the leaders of the two worlds could've gotten on the Batphone with one another and explained that the crafts that were deemed "casualties" were not part of the war. But neither did.

There are times when progress of a larger community is going to force a smaller community to change their ways.

Once you have a government executing outsiders for doing nothing more than being in the "wrong place at the wrong time", it's time to end their game of Missile Command and tell them to grow up.

I'm confused..WHAT liner?? We have no idea what the crew of a starship from 50 years before was...likely it was several hundred. Regardless, you don't rush into a planet guns blazing or trying to take it over by forcing treaties.

There are times when progress of a larger community is going to force a smaller community to change their ways.

Wrong, this is just the sort of thing the Prime Directive is supposed to guard against. If the UFP had come to investigate, they should have asked, not force a treaty port.

 

[Warped9]

^^ I think you're wrong on one point. Fox's assertion that thousands of lives have been lost evidently goes beyond the loss of one starship fifty years previously. And at this point neither Fox nor anyone else seem even aware Eminiar and Vendikar are still at war. And if their war were only claiming Eminian an Vendikan lives than the Federation wouldn't have had a serious problem with that. So all this tells me that Federation and allied lives have been lost to unspecified causes and the Federation believes a treaty port in that sector will help save lives.

This story shows us in this instance Fox was bullheaded and Kirk was blameless in approaching the planet. Even when the situation was known I think Kirk was just as ready to leave the area. But once the Eminians acted against Kirk and his ship, and thus in extent the Federation, then all bets were off and Kirk gave them just a taste of what the Federation could have done in response to hostile action against its peoples and property.

It's possible the Federation already suspected the Eminians and Vendikans were responsible (or at least had knowledge of) what caused the loss of thousands in that sector and that's why Fox was dispatched there. It's apparent the Federation were intent on trying the diplomatic solution first by endeavouring to have Fox negotiate a treaty port. But that diplomatic overture went out the window the moment the Eminians took Kirk and his party hostage and made clear they intended to execute the entire ship's complement.

I think it likely, like CRA already mentioned, that if the Enterprise had failed to return the next UFP presence to the Eminian system would have been at least a Starfleet squadron.

 

[RAMA]

By forcing a situation rather than investigation and non-interference based on Eminiar's Sovereign request, the UFP become criminals. If every TOS episode followed this pattern, it would have been a MUCH different show.

RAMA

So it's better to spy on the advanced culture than try to approach them as equals? All the while, they continue to execute innocents who happen to wander into their space.

OK, there are several wrongheaded assumptions here..

1) The UFP was warned away, most likely BOTH times. A planet has a right to determine it's own course of history...if they want to remain at war, it their prerogative. Not every planet in UFP space belongs to the UFP! That has been established before. One would hope long range messaging would lead to some sort of compensation for the Valiant, but martial actions perpetrated by Fox are not characteristic of the UFP, and later episodes apparently dropped this idea.

2) The "innocents" on-planet are sadly killing themselves, but it was part of a treaty between two planets. One would hope they'd wake up to the folly, but its not an outsider's right to arbitrarily and unilaterally decide for them.

RAMA

 

[RAMA]

They have every right to expect Vendikar and Eminiar VII are in a war between each other


RAMA

So a damaged civilian liner with thousands of passengers accidentally wanders into their system, the Emininans have the right to execute them?

In each instance the leaders of the two worlds could've gotten on the Batphone with one another and explained that the crafts that were deemed "casualties" were not part of the war. But neither did.

There are times when progress of a larger community is going to force a smaller community to change their ways.

Once you have a government executing outsiders for doing nothing more than being in the "wrong place at the wrong time", it's time to end their game of Missile Command and tell them to grow up.

For some reason the above posted before the post I quoted from... weird.

I screwed up the quotations, corrected and reposted it, sorry about that. You must have been posting at the exact same time.

 

[BillJ]

I'm confused..WHAT liner?? We have no idea what the crew of a starship from 50 years before was...likely it was several hundred. Regardless, you don't rush into a planet guns blazing or trying to take it over by forcing treaties.

It was hypothetical. But considering they mention the Valiant and the thousands of lives lost as happening in two different time periods, it's logical to conclude that the "thousands of lives lost" are civilian or commercial in nature.

Wrong, this is just the sort of thing the Prime Directive is supposed to guard against. If the UFP had come to investigate, they should have asked, not force a treaty port.

They were never given the opportunity to ask.

The Eminians just sent a repeating message. Being an 'advanced' culture they could have at least given a proper response to the request to talk. You know... a live representative. If that had happened Fox would've been able to tell them what was so important. Then the two worlds could've drawn up language that made sure third parties weren't being executed in their game. Then there is no need for a treaty port.

You also seem to be working under the misconception that Fox was just going to go down and demand a treaty port. Being an Ambassador, I'm sure he'd of gotten a feel for the situation and whether it was even possible. His bluster with Kirk was to show who was in charge.

Even the Prime Directive must give way to the reality of a given situation. People were moving into that general area of space and it's the Federation and Starfleet's job to make sure it relatively safe for them. If the Klingons or Romulans or Cardassians or some other race loses ships and citizens to this game of Missile Command, their response wouldn't be so tempered.

 

[Warped9]

Another thing to consider in regard to those "thousands of lives lost." TOS was made long before episode-to-episode continuity became almost a staple of contemporary television series. But in this case we do know that soon enough we will see the events that unfold in "Errand Of Mercy." And in that episode there is reference to "disputed territories." It's just possible that those "thousands of lives lost" could have been a result of the Federation being in dispute with someone over the right of passage in that sector and that the Federation believed a treaty port there would help stem the losses.

 

[RAMA]

^^ I think you're wrong on one point. Fox's assertion that thousands of lives have been lost evidently goes beyond the loss of one starship fifty years previously. And at this point neither Fox nor anyone else seem even aware Eminiar and Vendikar are still at war. And if their war were only claiming Eminian an Vendikan lives than the Federation wouldn't have had a serious problem with that. So all this tells me that Federation and allied lives have been lost to unspecified causes and the Federation believes a treaty port in that sector will help save lives.

I disagree for 3 reasons. Firstly, Fox states there have been thousands of lives lost, apparently the UFP has intelligence of this, they just don't know how. Secondly, they knew they were at war 50 yrs ago, and should have assumed the worst first. Thirdly, they were warned AWAY!

This story shows us in this instance Fox was bullheaded and Kirk was blameless in approaching the planet.

I think it likely, like CRA already mentioned, that if the Enterprise had failed to return the next UFP presence to the Eminian system would have been at least a Starfleet squadron.

Fox was bull-headed but was under Federation orders that came from higher up to use the planets as a treaty port.

RAMA

 

[Warped9]

I want to assert that I'm not absolving Fox's decisions and actions. And yet it's also clear the Federation would have been really overstepping it to have sent in a squadron with Fox---that wouldn't have looked like much of a diplomatic overture. But it was sound thinking (within the context of the mission) to send Fox aboard a ship that could most likely hold its own if this went south. In this case it was proved a smart choice.

The flaw in this episode is that it doesn't really make clear what the Federation does and does not know about this sector of space. It also doesn't make clear any reasons for the loss of those thousands of lives. As it is we're are left to only speculate.

 

[RAMA]

They were never given the opportunity to ask.

We were never told if the UFP had tried to contact them previously about it.

It was hypothetical. But considering they mention the Valiant and the thousands of lives lost as happening in two different time periods, it's logical to conclude that the "thousands of lives lost" are civilian or commercial in nature.

WHY would a LINER be so near a planetary system AT WAR with each other??? Would the Queen Mary keep sailing toward a Somalian port especially if radio msgs told them to stay away??? As Doug Adams put it: Space is big, really, really big.

It is not specified where the lives are lost, but within the connotation of the episode its sensible to assume the UFP has intelligence (spy drones or radio chatter from within the system) there are thousands of deaths...they simply don't know why because the method of death (suicide disintegration booths) are difficult to figure out.

RAMA

 

[BillJ]

They were never given the opportunity to ask.

We were never told if the UFP had tried to contact them previously about it.

RAMA

UHURA: Captain, message coming in from Eminiar Seven. Sir, it's code seven-ten.
KIRK: Are you sure?
UHURA: Positive. It repeats over and over.

So we know that they aren't willing to talk. Even over subspace communications.

 

[Warped9]

They were never given the opportunity to ask.

We were never told if the UFP had tried to contact them previously about it.

RAMA

UHURA: Captain, message coming in from Eminiar Seven. Sir, it's code seven-ten.
KIRK: Are you sure?
UHURA: Positive. It repeats over and over.

So we know that they aren't willing to talk. Even over subspace communications.

This raises an interesting point and one not explored in the episode. Before approaching the planet Fox should have broadcast the Federation's intentions before ordering Kirk to approach.

 

[BillJ]

We were never told if the UFP had tried to contact them previously about it.

RAMA

UHURA: Captain, message coming in from Eminiar Seven. Sir, it's code seven-ten.
KIRK: Are you sure?
UHURA: Positive. It repeats over and over.

So we know that they aren't willing to talk. Even over subspace communications.

This raises an interesting point and one not explored in the episode. Before approaching the planet Fox should have broadcast the Federation's intentions before ordering Kirk to approach.

True.

But without knowing if the frequency is secured on both sides... anyone could be listening in. Without knowing more about the planet you could be revealing the existence of aliens to the general populace.

Though anyone could've been listening to the original signal... what do I know.

 

[RAMA]

They were never given the opportunity to ask.

We were never told if the UFP had tried to contact them previously about it.

RAMA

UHURA: Captain, message coming in from Eminiar Seven. Sir, it's code seven-ten.
KIRK: Are you sure?
UHURA: Positive. It repeats over and over.

So we know that they aren't willing to talk. Even over subspace communications.

They've had 50 years! They couldnt have ohhhh...sent a phone call over about their starship or requested a meeting, or asked for a few chickens, and a couple of credits in return for the Valiant's destruction??

The only thing the repeated signal tells me is that they are frantically trying to save Fox's unworthy ass from getting torched.

RAMA

 

[Warped9]

UHURA: Captain, message coming in from Eminiar Seven. Sir, it's code seven-ten.
KIRK: Are you sure?
UHURA: Positive. It repeats over and over.

So we know that they aren't willing to talk. Even over subspace communications.

This raises an interesting point and one not explored in the episode. Before approaching the planet Fox should have broadcast the Federation's intentions before ordering Kirk to approach.

True.

But without knowing if the frequency is secured on both sides... anyone could be listening in. Without knowing more about the planet you could be revealing the existence of aliens to the general populace.

Though anyone could've been listening to the original signal... what do I know.

The Valiant reported contact with the Eminians before going silent. It's apparent the Eminians already knew of life beyoned their own system.

 

[BillJ]

The only thing the repeated signal tells me is that they are frantically trying to save Fox's unworthy ass from getting torched.

RAMA

Wow, little bit of venom there for a fictional character.

Or they were desperate to maintain the "status quo". The more off-worlders that learn about it the more likely someone is going to shut it down.

It does seem the game has stifled their growth as a civilization.

 

[RAMA]

The only thing the repeated signal tells me is that they are frantically trying to save Fox's unworthy ass from getting torched.

RAMA

Wow, little bit of venom there for a fictional character.

Or they were desperate to maintain the "status quo". The more off-worlders that learn about it the more likely someone is going to shut it down.

It does seem the game has stifled their growth as a civilization.

In this particular case, the Eminians acted more nobly than Fox did in trying to protect the Enterprise.

By no means do I think the Eminians are worthy of admiration, however...unlike Kirk's assumption that the culture in the "Apple" was an arrested culture, the Eminians exhibit some advanced technology, and their way of life seems to work for them, preserving much of their society.

RAMA

 

[BillJ]

The only thing the repeated signal tells me is that they are frantically trying to save Fox's unworthy ass from getting torched.

RAMA

Wow, little bit of venom there for a fictional character.

Or they were desperate to maintain the "status quo". The more off-worlders that learn about it the more likely someone is going to shut it down.

It does seem the game has stifled their growth as a civilization.

In this particular case, the Eminians acted more nobly than Fox did in trying to protect the Enterprise.

By no means do I think the Eminians are worthy of admiration, however...unlike Kirk's assumption that the culture in the "Apple" was an arrested culture, the Eminians exhibit some advanced technology, and their way of life seems to work for them, preserving much of their society.

RAMA

At a cost of 1.5 billion lives.