• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Roberto Orci Offers Star Trek 2 Update

Old fans also have to bite their lips to a certain extent and understand that new fans care less about fully acurate portrayals and more about the characters we do have being engaging and entertaining.

This is an understatement. The least some could do is research, especially for stories they write. And the TOS female characters seem to be the ones they really go after. Rand is written as a giggly broad who goes about the ship gossiping about the captain, whom she pines after (and the near rape was her fault). And Kirk is just not interested in her (despite what he's said). Uhura is written often times as Kirk's head cheerleader. Spock...when the hell did he acquire six nipples. Vulcans did not evolve from felines, and they do not use contractions. And based on one 5 minute scene in one of the worst ST movies, Uhura and Scotty have been lovers for a lifetime. I don't mind the slash, but for God's sake, Spock was not a powder puff, except when under the influence of sex pollen. And one line in DS9, uttered by a Ferengi (of all aliens) has Vulcans becoming innebriated through the consumption of chocolate. Ever seen an innebriated Vulcan on the show, outside of sex pollen? And evidently CAPTAIN Kirk cuts himself, now. There are so many others.
 
whom she pines after (and the near rape was her fault).

Ew. Victim blaming. Sometimes situations do open people up to vulnerability that could be questioned in terms of judgement but rape is never... ever the victim's fault.
 
Old fans also have to bite their lips to a certain extent and understand that new fans care less about fully acurate portrayals and more about the characters we do have being engaging and entertaining.

This is an understatement. The least some could do is research, especially for stories they write. And the TOS female characters seem to be the ones they really go after.

I guess I see your point....

Rand is written as a giggly broad who goes about the ship gossiping about the captain,

Ah--wha? I don't recall that. She was actually pretty understated in her attraction to Kirk--and she was by no means "giggly", any more than Uhura was! (To the best of my knowledge, she doesn't gossip, either.

whom she pines after (and the near rape was her fault).

EXCUSE me?!? How was it "her fault"...exactly?

And Kirk is just not interested in her (despite what he's said).

Despite what he...?

Assuming you're referring to what he says in "The Naked Time", note the moment when he reached over to brush her cheek--and pulls back at the last moment, knowing he can't, because he's the captain....

Uhura is written often times as Kirk's head cheerleader.

:wtf:

Spock...when the hell did he acquire six nipples. Vulcans did not evolve from felines

:wtf:...:wtf:

and they do not use contractions.

Neither does Data. And yet in the first season of TNG in particular...

And based on one 5 minute scene in one of the worst ST movies, Uhura and Scotty have been lovers for a lifetime.

Not necessarily...I don't see the "lifetime" thing. Recall Uhura notes in the film that it's one of those emotions "we've all been afraid to express."

I don't mind the slash, but for God's sake, Spock was not a powder puff, except when under the influence of sex pollen. And one line in DS9, uttered by a Ferengi (of all aliens) has Vulcans becoming innebriated through the consumption of chocolate. Ever seen an innebriated Vulcan on the show, outside of sex pollen? And evidently CAPTAIN Kirk cuts himself, now. There are so many others.

Captain Kirk...cutting himself?
 
The Enemy Within was one of the best Janice episodes along with Charlie X and the Man Trap. The fact that she stood up to Kirk's initial non-violent advances despite fancying the shirt off him says as much for her sense of duty as his own usual reluctance does for his. It would certainly have made an interesting ongoing 'soap' element if the show were being developed today.

I think Spock's 'interesting qualities' line might be a hang over from the Spock/Rand brother/sister relationship that was never really developed. For example, if Spock is aware that they fancy each other, he might be teasing her that 'evil' Kirk was willing to act on those feelings while 'normal' Kirk won't. To Spock, this is an interesting difference and his creepy smile is actually mocking their refusal to act on their feelings rather than mocking her for not enjoying the attempted rape. And lets not forget the general violence attached to Vulcan mating rituals... Maybe Spock can't understand why they didn't beat the crap out of each other with bladed weapons and then get it on.

Seriously though, a Kirk/Rand relationship in the new franchise at this stage would be a bad choice. If the franchise has legs then later on after Spock and Uhura have lost their shine could work.
 
I don't think a Kirk/Rand relationship is a bad choice. I just don't think it's going to happen right off the bat. It might towards the end of the movie. All movies need characters we can invest in, they need drama/adventure to keep us interested, and emotional commitment that evokes feelings, especially from the audience.

A relationship between Kirk and Rand would be easier to develop than one between Spock and Uhura, because Vulcans control their emotions outwardly, and humans love to show a relationship to others. Spock also quite probably has that persnickety Vulcan female he's been bonded to, to deal with. I heard there might be a fight scene with Uhura, and I'm looking for justice done, this time. T'Pring is going down.

TOS executives were wrong in keeping the three main characters from developing close personal relationships with other outside of themselves. Of course, this lead to Kirk being unable to let go of the Enterprise, Spock to become aloof and unable to deal with his emotions, and McCoy becoming a crochety old man.
 
Old fans also have to bite their lips to a certain extent and understand that new fans care less about fully acurate portrayals and more about the characters we do have being engaging and entertaining.


Old, old fan here.

There's no accuracy involved - it's a story; they're changing the story. Using "accurate" in this context is, well, wholly inaccurate. :lol:
 
The Enemy Within was one of the best Janice episodes along with Charlie X and the Man Trap. The fact that she stood up to Kirk's initial non-violent advances despite fancying the shirt off him says as much for her sense of duty as his own usual reluctance does for his. It would certainly have made an interesting ongoing 'soap' element if the show were being developed today.

I think Spock's 'interesting qualities' line might be a hang over from the Spock/Rand brother/sister relationship that was never really developed. For example, if Spock is aware that they fancy each other, he might be teasing her that 'evil' Kirk was willing to act on those feelings while 'normal' Kirk won't. To Spock, this is an interesting difference and his creepy smile is actually mocking their refusal to act on their feelings rather than mocking her for not enjoying the attempted rape. And lets not forget the general violence attached to Vulcan mating rituals... Maybe Spock can't understand why they didn't beat the crap out of each other with bladed weapons and then get it on.

Amen on all counts. :techman:

Seriously though, a Kirk/Rand relationship in the new franchise at this stage would be a bad choice. If the franchise has legs then later on after Spock and Uhura have lost their shine could work.

Agreed. No need to cram our minds with too much long-term romance so soon.

I don't think a Kirk/Rand relationship is a bad choice. I just don't think it's going to happen right off the bat. It might towards the end of the movie. All movies need characters we can invest in, they need drama/adventure to keep us interested, and emotional commitment that evokes feelings, especially from the audience.

(nods) Good points. Investments is everything.

A relationship between Kirk and Rand would be easier to develop than one between Spock and Uhura, because Vulcans control their emotions outwardly, and humans love to show a relationship to others. Spock also quite probably has that persnickety Vulcan female he's been bonded to, to deal with. I heard there might be a fight scene with Uhura, and I'm looking for justice done, this time. T'Pring is going down.

Assuming T'Pring happened to survive Nero's attack.

But if so--heck, yeah. T'Pring...you will FALL!!!

TOS executives were wrong in keeping the three main characters from developing close personal relationships with other outside of themselves. Of course, this lead to Kirk being unable to let go of the Enterprise, Spock to become aloof and unable to deal with his emotions, and McCoy becoming a crochety old man.

Apparently...that's all about to change....
 
I'm still waiting for you to explain to me just which part of Rand's character--established or intended--is in any way incompatible with her being chief of security (note: "It's 1964" is not a character trait).

How about Yeoman to transporter chief?
Or Navigator to Security Chief?

You really think I'm baiting you? I don't. I find myself reacting very legitimately to your knee-jerk objection to Janice Rand being anything OTHER than Kirk's personal secretary squire/girl with nothing better to do except make the Captain feel better. The franchise has been rebooted, I think we can do better than Communications Officer after a forty year career.

Don't forget O'Brien's tactical officer to helm to transporter chief to chief of ops/engineer. Personally, I don't find that level of breadth credible and it annoys me. Characters are only defined by what they say and do. I prefer them to be well defined within a fairly narrow margin.
And this would mean something if we were talking about anyone OTHER than Janice Rand. In terms of TOS, we never really saw her say or do anything particularly meaningful, so her character has never been well defined or explored. We've seen her DO a dozen different things in the TMP era, but we never got to know her very well.

Character development is what happens when a character discovers something about himself that he didn't know before or arrives at a new place in his life. The beauty of this is, the VIEWERS are learning about that character at the same time, and they take the journey together. In this case, we don't really know anything about Janice Rand, so just about anything she could do that introduces new information would constitute SUBSTANTIAL character development.

Troi's problem was that her role was defined as plot device empathy and fluffy counselor, which only has enough breadth for a guest character. There's a narrow definition and then there is so narrow that you serve nno useful purpose most of the time.
Is that not exactly what happened with Janice Rand anyway?:confused:

Travis suffered from this problem too. If they'd toned down Troi's empathy, formally defined her as the ship's diplomatic officer, treated her as an officer in a proper uniform and not a civilian showing off her boobs, and let her take the lead in more negotiations instead of just standing around and offering a line or two of advice to Picard, then I think the character would have been fine.
So what you're really saying is TROI NEEDS A REAL JOB.

We reach, brother. Because what I'm really saying is JANICE RAND NEEDS A REAL JOB. Captain's Yeoman just doesn't cut it; that's the fast track to making Lieutenant by the age of 55. If you don't like the security department (I only think it fits because the TOS cast otherwise has no regular character to fill that role and it seems like they ought to) then transporter chief would be a close second. But "I give advice to the Captain and I'm his friend and confidant" is so narrow a role that she is DESTINED to be the first element written out of any script. That role has so little importance to any storyline that to limit her to that makes her both disposable and irrelevant. She can be that as well, but for her to become an meaningful member of the Enterprise crew she needs to have A REAL JOB.

I agree with you in that there is no reason why Rand can't be trained in security instead of engineering - her engineering career is not an iconic part of her character. However, I see no reason why she has to be security chief.
For the same reason you would have been happier with Ilia as that role. Rand has virtually no backstory and little or nothing is known about her other than a handful of appearances in TOS and her precious few cameos in the movies. You could EASILY turn that sort of transfer into a life-changing moment for Rand in her discovering a few hidden talents that no one--least of all her--ever suspected she possessed.

She is best known for being YEOMAN Rand in the same way that Christine is best known for being NURSE Chapel.
And yet, even Chapel became a full medical doctor. What's the next step up from Yeoman, exactly?

Conversely, as the captain's yeoman, Rand's role is far more flexible. She can interact with the other characters on many different levels in many different locations and she has a convenient reason to be at Kirk's side both on and off the ship. She can be a kick-ass security guard without the baggage that comes with security chief and the ability to develop a more personal realtionship with Kirk.
The only problem is, "Guarding captain Kirk" is another extremely narrow role that is only situational and contingent on Kirk specifically needing to be guarded. The plot requirement for Kirk to be endangered means writing Rand OUT of that scene by some contrivance, which again reduces her to uselessness (kinda like Troi's telepathy conveniently fails--or she just happens to not be around--at a time when it would be most handy).

Give her a wider role on the ship where she'd have a reason to guard Kirk or anyone else for that matter, then ANY situation involving saving Kirk's ass--or anyone else's for that matter--must involve her. Suddenly she has a reason to be there OTHER than Kirk, an actual job with actual responsibilities and not just the Captain's pet.

Plus, as with Tasha, it isn't the role of security chief that has any inherent worth (TOS barely used one).
Of course not, unless the security chief is intentionally given a lead role (as in, for example, Odo and Malcolm). The ROLE they are given is simply a context in which they are given things to do. But if you give them an incredibly narrow role, you find it hard to give them things to do and you eventually write them out of the story because they're useless.
 
And this would mean something if we were talking about anyone OTHER than Janice Rand. In terms of TOS, we never really saw her say or do anything particularly meaningful, so her character has never been well defined or explored. We've seen her DO a dozen different things in the TMP era, but we never got to know her very well.

So what you're really saying is TROI NEEDS A REAL JOB.

We reach, brother. Because what I'm really saying is JANICE RAND NEEDS A REAL JOB.

But "I give advice to the Captain and I'm his friend and confidant" is so narrow a role that she is DESTINED to be the first element written out of any script. That role has so little importance to any storyline that to limit her to that makes her both disposable and irrelevant. She can be that as well, but for her to become an meaningful member of the Enterprise crew she needs to have A REAL JOB.

...even Chapel became a full medical doctor. What's the next step up from Yeoman, exactly?

Give her a wider role on the ship where she'd have a reason to guard Kirk or anyone else for that matter, then ANY situation involving saving Kirk's ass--or anyone else's for that matter--must involve her. Suddenly she has a reason to be there OTHER than Kirk, an actual job with actual responsibilities and not just the Captain's pet.

The ROLE they are given is simply a context in which they are given things to do. But if you give them an incredibly narrow role, you find it hard to give them things to do and you eventually write them out of the story because they're useless.

You make some good points but we're just coming at the same argument from different perspectives. Troi HAD a real job; just not a real job that could contribute to many of the stories as a series regular, which just left her convenient and/or inconvenient empathy or relationship episodes.

Whether Chapel is a nurse or a doctor makes little difference. In either role she can do little more than assist Dr McCoy in a minor role (unless it's him she's treating). Chapel needs her own niche to shine otherwise all we get to focus on is her personal relationships and that is a cliche that NuTrek has already fallen into. That's why I'd favour her as a biologist where she can assist Spock or McCoy and shine in her own right.

I think you view the position of yeoman as something that isn't worthwhile, whereas I view it as an easy way of getting in a few lines of dialogue with just about any character in just about any situation. As a security-trained yeoman, you can take the role to the next, more modern level and have her kick a** as well as serve coffee. It can be a nice comic moment when Kirk realises that his secretary might even be able to take him in a fight.

Make her the official security chief and you lose several dimensions. It becomes her primary role and you have to think of a reason beyond, 'sign this PADD' to have her in a particular location, you also lose a bit of breadth in the potential humour stakes as it should be no surprise that the security chief iss kick a**. I'm not totally averse to making her a security officer (although security chief - meh - these characters are far too young for it to be credible) but I don't view the position of yeoman as having less inherent worth and I think that as a character it would give her wider opportunities.
 
If they bring Chapel and Rand back, I also hope that they have more important jobs.

Chapel could be for example a doctor, specialized in certain alien physiologies or something else, McCoy isn't an expert in. A biologist/chemist could work, too. Just not a "mere" nurse again.

And I like the idea of making Rand the security chief. She doesn't have to be 20. You can easily give the role to an older actress, so the character wouldn't be too young for the job. I think the security chief is an important position and there is no one with a similar role yet, so the character would have room to grow there.
 
If they bring Chapel and Rand back, I also hope that they have more important jobs.

Chapel could be for example a doctor, specialized in certain alien physiologies or something else, McCoy isn't an expert in. A biologist/chemist could work, too. Just not a "mere" nurse again.

And I like the idea of making Rand the security chief. She doesn't have to be 20. You can easily give the role to an older actress, so the character wouldn't be too young for the job. I think the security chief is an important position and there is no one with a similar role yet, so the character would have room to grow there.

I suppose, if I'm pedantic, Rand is actually Kirk's age so if he's old enough to be Captain, then she's old enough to be security chief. It's Chekov and Uhura who are a bit young to be department heads (although they can be posted to the bridge without being department heads).
 
If they bring Chapel and Rand back, I also hope that they have more important jobs.

Chapel could be for example a doctor, specialized in certain alien physiologies or something else, McCoy isn't an expert in. A biologist/chemist could work, too. Just not a "mere" nurse again.

And I like the idea of making Rand the security chief. She doesn't have to be 20. You can easily give the role to an older actress, so the character wouldn't be too young for the job. I think the security chief is an important position and there is no one with a similar role yet, so the character would have room to grow there.

I suppose, if I'm pedantic, Rand is actually Kirk's age so if he's old enough to be Captain, then she's old enough to be security chief. It's Chekov and Uhura who are a bit young to be department heads (although they can be posted to the bridge without being department heads).

I have no idea how old Rand was supposed to be exactly in TOS. I always thought she was in her 20s. If Rand was really younger in TOS than Kirk, it doesn't mean she has to be in the next movie. That is all I wanted to say. Just give the role to an actress, who will be believable in her role.
 
If they bring Chapel and Rand back, I also hope that they have more important jobs.

Chapel could be for example a doctor, specialized in certain alien physiologies or something else, McCoy isn't an expert in. A biologist/chemist could work, too. Just not a "mere" nurse again.

And I like the idea of making Rand the security chief. She doesn't have to be 20. You can easily give the role to an older actress, so the character wouldn't be too young for the job. I think the security chief is an important position and there is no one with a similar role yet, so the character would have room to grow there.

I suppose, if I'm pedantic, Rand is actually Kirk's age so if he's old enough to be Captain, then she's old enough to be security chief. It's Chekov and Uhura who are a bit young to be department heads (although they can be posted to the bridge without being department heads).

I have no idea how old Rand was supposed to be exactly in TOS. I always thought she was in her 20s. If Rand was really younger in TOS than Kirk, it doesn't mean she has to be in the next movie. That is all I wanted to say. Just give the role to an actress, who will be believable in her role.

She was going to be 24 in Miri (9 years younger than Kirk and 3 years older than Chekov) but the line was cut. In Flashback her age is allegedly shown on a screen and it was adjusted to be the same as the actress, which would make her a one or two years older than Kirk I think. I like her to be the same age as Kirk personally as I think Rand should be an experienced crewman who has been around the block a few times. It makes her more credible as a confidante.
 
I suppose, if I'm pedantic, Rand is actually Kirk's age so if he's old enough to be Captain, then she's old enough to be security chief. It's Chekov and Uhura who are a bit young to be department heads (although they can be posted to the bridge without being department heads).

I have no idea how old Rand was supposed to be exactly in TOS. I always thought she was in her 20s. If Rand was really younger in TOS than Kirk, it doesn't mean she has to be in the next movie. That is all I wanted to say. Just give the role to an actress, who will be believable in her role.

She was going to be 24 in Miri (9 years younger than Kirk and 3 years older than Chekov) but the line was cut. In Flashback her age is allegedly shown on a screen and it was adjusted to be the same as the actress, which would make her a one or two years older than Kirk I think. I like her to be the same age as Kirk personally as I think Rand should be an experienced crewman who has been around the block a few times. It makes her more credible as a confidante.

I also prefer an older actress and not a 20 year old. I think it could be even interesting to make the character significant older than Kirk, someone in her late 40s. All the other characters are very young. An Admiral could have had the opinion, that there should be at least one very experienced officer on board to keep them from being careless or at least save their lives, when their inexperience put them in danger.

That could be an interesting dynamic. On the one had the very experienced security chief, whose job it is to protect the crew and especially the high ranking bridge officers, and on the other hand the young inexperienced hot headed captain, who often acts impulsive on his instincts.

Giotto was also quite old in TOS.

http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Giotto
 
I agree, I would like to see some more seasoned officers helping them out. Number One wouldn't hurt. I'd quite like to see Ann Mulhall too, she was smart, an astrobiologist and an engineer, and she could be an older lady. If she replaced Keenser as Scotty's number two, I'd be very happy.

I'm not totally anally retentive about character ages btw, I just researched them to prepare character sheets for a Thousand Suns role-playing game.
 
If they bring Chapel and Rand back, I also hope that they have more important jobs.

Not everybody can have the utmost of important jobs, nor should they need to. The last thing this cast needs is another super expert at something. Bring on the Enterprise janitors! :)
 
If they bring Chapel and Rand back, I also hope that they have more important jobs.

Not everybody can have the utmost of important jobs, nor should they need to. The last thing this cast needs is another super expert at something. Bring on the Enterprise janitors! :)

Those "normal" jobs are of course also important for the functioning of a ship, but they generally don't get any speaking roles. They are just there in the background. I don't want this to happen to Chapel and Rand. ;)
 
You could simply start with the Constellation answering a distress signal and arriving in orbit of a planet just as the Doomsday Machine is devouring it. Fight, loose, crippled in space... CUE TITLE. From there, it's pretty easy to padd this out to a whole two-our feature; have at least one sequence where they have to fight and stall the machine so the population of the next victim planet can evacuate, add some serious damage/control "The ship is on fire" moments in between, then go for the finale.

And the Captain's wife is pregnant and the fighting triggers labor. She manages to get away in a shuttle... her husband is lost, and she remarries someone with the last name Picard...

Haven't we seen this opening before?
 
I also prefer an older actress and not a 20 year old. I think it could be even interesting to make the character significant older than Kirk, someone in her late 40s. All the other characters are very young. An Admiral could have had the opinion, that there should be at least one very experienced officer on board to keep them from being careless or at least save their lives, when their inexperience put them in danger.

That could be an interesting dynamic. On the one had the very experienced security chief, whose job it is to protect the crew and especially the high ranking bridge officers, and on the other hand the young inexperienced hot headed captain, who often acts impulsive on his instincts.

Giotto was also quite old in TOS.

http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Giotto

Rand in her late 40s?

No...no...no.

Sorry. Chekov's age adjustment was bad enough--but THIS?

If you're going to do that, just create another character, for goodness sake. Make that character "security chief".

(For that matter--let's have Giotto! I always like him, and was dissapointed he was only in one ep....)

But Rand is supposed to be yeoman to Kirk's captain. Grace may have been older than Shatner by a couple of years...but she looked younger--and the characterization had her as younger.

Sorry, but I'm going with the Star Trek Chronology standard--use info cut from the script (such as Sarek and Amanda being married for such-and-such a number of years as of "Journey to Babel"). In this case...by "Miri", she's 24. (Perhaps, as the thing in Enterprise: TFA on her legal age being three years older than her actual age, actually 21. Again, that's actually consistant with Kirk's age in that book setting it in 2262.)

Perhaps, in that case, it may actually be best to put off introducing Rand for a while, as Trek XI is set in 2258, making Kirk 25, and Rand 16/13!

Yeah. Put Rand off for a while....
 
Last edited:
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top