Should we bring back the percontation point?

[Eyes]

Oh, yes, this is what we need. I am tired of being taken seriously, although I often use when I'm being sarcastic.

And percontation point as a name sounds cool.

 

[Goliath]

(I was being serious. I never, ever use it myself. I thought it had become vestigial, like the ampersand.)

The ampersand is also widely used in programming languages.

That's interesting. That would mean that three obsolescent punctuation marks--@,#, and &--have been repurposed and given a new lease on life by computers. Just because they were there, on the keyboard.

It would be interesting to see how the "cent" sign and other symbols missed out, by comparing the timeline of their omission from keyboards to the timeline of the information revolution.

 

[bigdaddy]

If I remember I put a after what I say.

 

[Trekker4747]

"#" is called a "pound sign" or sometmes "hash." But more often I see it called "pound."

£ = pound sign
# = hash

Your confusion is due to the bygone days of computing.

Computer text was originally encoded in ASCII, which was one byte per character.

European keyboards had £ on shift-3, while American keyboards had # on shift-3. But in both locales, shift-3 encoded to the same ASCII code (hex-23).

What this meant was that when Americans read British documents, hex-23 appeared to them as a hash symbol, even though it was typed as pound sign in Britain. The Americans learned to call # a pound sign because that was how it was being used, even though it's completely wrong to call it that.

Well, not anymore it would seem. It's commonly used in America as symbol for "pound" (our measurement of weight) and, as I said, it's commonly what it's called when it comes to phone keypads.

 

[Roger Wilco]

No, it totally defeats the point when you label sarcasm, it's like having to explain the punchline of a joke.

eta: And I use the "#" frequently for numerations.

 

[Goliath]

^I'm not sure that's true either. In spoken speech, irony and sarcasm are often indicated by tone of voice and facial expression. That's one reason why they can be difficult to spot in written form. And tone of voice is just the sort of thing that punctuation is supposed to help convey.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

On TrekBBS, isn't the smiley intended to serve the purpose of indicating sarcasm?

I don't think so. In my experience, it's usually used to indicate frustration, exasperation, and contempt. Like rolled eyes in real life.

But the mouse-over says "Roll Eyes (Sarcastic)", and the interpretation I stated conforms with what is described in the wiki link I gave.

In addition, there's a difference between sarcasm and irony, which none of those marks recognize.

Ah yes, I was waiting for you to get to this point, which is discussed here. Besides enumerating disagreement on the precise meaning of either term, it says this interesting thing:

Most instances of verbal irony are labeled by research subjects as sarcastic, suggesting that the term sarcasm is more widely used than its technical definition suggests it should be (Bryant & Fox Tree, 2002; Gibbs, 2000).

Recently there was a thread on "OMG" in [sic] Webster's, but it was really about "OMG" in the OED. In due course, it became apparent that the term "acronym" has come to mean, in common modern usage, any abbreviation whatsoever. I objected to that on the grounds that meaning was being lost in language. Unfortunately, it really looks like the ship has sailed on the word acronym meaning an abbreviation pronounceable as a word, in and of itself.

I wonder whether a similar conflation is in the cards for the terms "sarcasm" and "irony".

 

[Roger Wilco]

Btw. looking around wikipedia I just found my new favourite punctuation mark, the interrobang. Not only is it awesomely named, but also really useful - am I right or am I right‽

 

[Goliath]

But the mouse-over says "Roll Eyes (Sarcastic)", and the interpretation I stated conforms with what is described in the wiki link I gave.

That may be, but I think that the way people actually use emoticons matters more than their labels, or anything Wikipedia says.

What you say in the rest of your post cuts both ways: if people can use "irony" to mean "sarcasm," then they can also use to mean something besides sarcasm. And as I said: in my experience, they generally do just that.

Since all meaning is attributed, rather than inherent, it follows that definitions are descriptive rather than prescriptive. They're accurate only insofar as they correspond to the ways in which people actually use those words.

That said: while sarcasm and irony probably already mean the same thing in common usage, "common usage" is not the only usage around. As a speaker of the "academic" sociolect, those two words mean quite different things to me. And that's fine--so long as we're both clear on what language we're actually speaking.

 

[lurok]

^I'm not sure that's true either. In spoken speech, irony and sarcasm are often indicated by tone of voice and facial expression. That's one reason why they can be difficult to spot in written form. And tone of voice is just the sort of thing that punctuation is supposed to help convey.

btw, thanks for the great thread (not meant ironically or sarcastically)

I like your concept, even though having fun with it. And I agree with problems re: written/verbal. And to me does mean sarcastic/whatever, and there is very very important difference between irony and sarcasm. But, generally speaking, if person is literate I can usually spot good irony in text/posts, whereas sarcasm can be more...dissembling.

I concur with your outrage, and I'm starting to think we have a very similar sense of humour

indubitably...

 

[Goliath]

Btw. looking around wikipedia I just found my new favourite punctuation mark, the interrobang. Not only is it awesomely named, but also really useful - am I right or am I right‽

You are right.

ETA: "A reverse and upside down interrobang for starting phrases in Spanish, Galician and Asturian is called by some a gnaborretni (interrobang backwards)."

 

[K'Ehleyr]

^I'm not sure that's true either. In spoken speech, irony and sarcasm are often indicated by tone of voice and facial expression. That's one reason why they can be difficult to spot in written form. And tone of voice is just the sort of thing that punctuation is supposed to help convey.

I agree with your 'In spoken speech...' it also helps that you use irony or sarcasm mostly with friends who appreciate your ways.
Here, we are mostly strangers and the written word can easily be taken wrongly.
I think a usually portrays a jocular point but it would be fun to introduce the percontation point.

 

[lurok]

Btw. looking around wikipedia I just found my new favourite punctuation mark, the interrobang. Not only is it awesomely named, but also really useful - am I right or am I right‽

You are right.

That did make me

I'm beginning to have sympathy for rationale that new emoticon is needed for international/intellectual differences.

 

[Spot's Meow]

I call # the number sign, as I use it for that purpose sometimes (for example when listing rankings, such as I am #1, you are #2). But as others have said, its real name over here is the pound sign. I also use ampersands every so often, though not in formal writing. Looking at the keyboard I would say the only symbols that are obsolete for me are ~, {, }, and |.

Anyway, I guess a symbol for sarcasm or irony might work, but sometimes the whole point of the joke is that some people will never realize you aren't being serious.

 

[K'Ehleyr]

But I still have a love for my 'tilde', even if I use it incorrectly ~ I'm just a punctuation Maverick

I'm loving the interrobang though RW and when I follow Jadzia's instructions I will start using new and more exciting punctuation marks

 

[RoJoHen]

I shouldn't have to tell people I'm being ironic. They should be smart enough to figure it out. It defeats the point of irony to tell people that I'm being ironic.

 

[lurok]

But I still have a love for my 'tilde', even if I use it incorrectly ~ I'm just a punctuation Maverick

I'm loving the interrobang though RW and when I follow Jadzia's instructions I will start using new and more exciting punctuation marks

See...this is why written language so beautiful yet so under-appreciated. Percontation...interrobang (so onomatopoeic)...tilde (always makes me think of Ms Swinton )

Interesting to see a sort-of consensus emerging re: use of irony...

 

[Goliath]

Interesting to see a sort-of consensus emerging re: use of irony...

Yes. It suggests to me that irony, like humour, is primarily a form of aggression. That never occurred to me before.

 

[lurok]

Interesting to see a sort-of consensus emerging re: use of irony...

Yes. It suggests to me that irony, like humour, is primarily a form of aggression. That never occurred to me before.

Really? *sad* I view quite the opposite. Sarcasm is aggressive and lazy; irony is gentle and playful, reliant on shared commonalities of wit and artistic/cultural/literary references. The worse thing I think one can say of irony is that it could be considered cultural snobbery.

 

[K'Ehleyr]

Interesting to see a sort-of consensus emerging re: use of irony...

Yes. It suggests to me that irony, like humour, is primarily a form of aggression. That never occurred to me before.

Really? *sad* I view quite the opposite. Sarcasm is aggressive and lazy; irony is gentle and playful, reliant on shared commonalities of wit and artistic/cultural/literary references. The worse thing I think one can say of irony is that it could be considered cultural snobbery.

I think irony and sarcasm may both be viewed as aggresive in some circumstances ~ unless said drolly with one arm draped over a sumptuous couch and the other holding a martini. One must also accompany these comments with a slight eyebrow raise and a slight but charming smile