Should we bring back the percontation point?

[Goliath]

As I'm sure just about everybody knows, irony is one of the most difficult things to convey clearly online. It's much too easy to misunderstand someone, and think they're being sincere when they're not.

This is not a new problem, of course. And it's not confined to the internet. Whenever I make my students read passages from Gibbon's Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, for example, I have to point out the passages where Gibbon is being ironic, and means the opposite of what he says.

As a consequence, there have been a number of suggestions for punctuation marks that would indicate when a person is being ironic. The oldest and simplest of these marks is the "percontation point" or "rhetorical question mark" suggested by Henry Denham in the 1580s. It's literally a backwards question mark, like so:

It's added at the end of the sentence, to show that the writer is being ironic.

This would eliminate a lot of misunderstandings online, and could easily be added to a standard keyboard in place of some other punctuation mark.

I mean, seriously--when was the last time you used the #? I'm not even sure what the # is called. The pound sign?

What do you all think? Should we bring back the percontation point?

 

[backstept]

I don't think it's that big of an issue. Ideally if one needed to make a point in a serious context one wouldn't use irony, but instead make a more direct statement.

 

[lurok]

I mean, seriously--when was the last time you used the #? I'm not even sure what the # is called. The pound sign?

I call it 'hash'. And use a lot As for signifying irony, no opinion as rarely use it (but I do tend to over-use the word 'ironically', much to my shame )

 

[Goliath]

I call it 'hash'. And use a lot

Really? For what?

As for signifying irony, no opinion as rarely use it

But do you like pie?

 

[lurok]

I call it 'hash'. And use a lot

Really? For what?

Scripts. Programming. Presentations. Unless you're being ironic

But do you like pie?

Ironically, I do. Key lime. And that great coconut cream one you get in certain diners. Yum.

 

[Goliath]

I call it 'hash'. And use a lot

Really? For what?

Scripts. Programming. Presentations. Unless you're being ironic

See what I mean?

Was I being ironic, or was I being serious? You'll never know.

And all this tragic uncertainty could have been avoided with one little percontation point.



(I was being serious. I never, ever use it myself. I thought it had become vestigial, like the ampersand.)

 

[K'Ehleyr]

Can I add 'yes I'm tired of being taken seriously' as well?

I'd never remember that name but it would be handy for an easy indicator to people's intended point.

At the moment I use or if a reply is intended to be taken ironically or in jest. As many a time I find myself raising an eyebrow as I type.

Can we have a competition for the design of the mark?
See now you've just made me go emoticon mad

 

[backstept]

"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

Ironic

People think it means:
Any kind of amusing coincidence.

Actually means:
An outcome that is the opposite of what you'd expect.

So, if a porn star moved to Virgin, Utah, that would be ironic. If the same porn star bought a house in Boner Knob, Montana that would not be ironic.

Read more: http://www.cracked.com/article_15664_9-words-that-dont-mean-what-you-think.html#ixzz1JKDYqEF5

 

[infinix]

What if we make it a rule that whenever a person is being ironic, it has to be WAY over the top, which would make it much easier to spot?

 

[Trekker4747]

As I'm sure just about everybody knows, irony is one of the most difficult things to convey clearly online. It's much too easy to misunderstand someone, and think they're being sincere when they're not.

This is not a new problem, of course. And it's not confined to the internet. Whenever I make my students read passages from Gibbon's Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, for example, I have to point out the passages where Gibbon is being ironic, and means the opposite of what he says.

As a consequence, there have been a number of suggestions for punctuation marks that would indicate when a person is being ironic. The oldest and simplest of these marks is the "percontation point" or "rhetorical question mark" suggested by Henry Denham in the 1580s. It's literally a backwards question mark, like so:

It's added at the end of the sentence, to show that the writer is being ironic.

This would eliminate a lot of misunderstandings online, and could easily be added to a standard keyboard in place of some other punctuation mark.

I mean, seriously--when was the last time you used the #? I'm not even sure what the # is called. The pound sign?

What do you all think? Should we bring back the percontation point?

"#" is called a "pound sign" or sometmes "hash." But more often I see it called "pound."

Anyway, I think the percontation point would be fun to bring back, why not?

 

[CorporalCaptain]

On TrekBBS, isn't the smiley intended to serve the purpose of indicating sarcasm? After a few misunderstandings, I've started inserting it whenever I intend to be sarcastic, even when I judge a misunderstanding to be unlikely.

In http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irony_punctuation#Other_typography, HTML-like sarcasm tags, as well as the smiley, are discussed as practical solutions. Personally, I think the ship has sailed on the percontation point. The practical solutions discussed in that section have the advantage of being presently in use, and are therefore already demonstrated as being both practical to implement and well-understood by communities.

 

[lurok]

"#" is called a "pound sign" or sometmes "hash." But more often I see it called "pound."

But not in UK. This is 'pound' sign: £.

 

[Goliath]

On TrekBBS, isn't the smiley intended to serve the purpose of indicating sarcasm?

I don't think so. In my experience, it's usually used to indicate frustration, exasperation, and contempt. Like rolled eyes in real life.

Personally, I think the ship has sailed on the percontation point.

I take thy point, but I believe thou art mistaken.

The practical solutions discussed in that section have the advantage of being presently in use, and are therefore already demonstrated as being both practical to implement and well-understood by communities.

Actually, I'm not convinced that the solutions discussed in that section are either practical to implement or well-understood.

In my opinion, the fake html tags are clumsy and space-consuming, while I'd never seen the "/s" before I read that article.

In addition, there's a difference between sarcasm and irony, which none of those marks recognize.

 

[Jadzia]

There's nothing to stop you from using a percontation point online, but how few will understand it's meaning

Not all fonts have it, so you can use this image if you want. Drag it to your bookmarks bar. Drag it from there into your posts.

As to whether we should bring it back: Is there a 'Ministry of Punctuation' which declares whether these symbols are in or out? Or do grammar experts simply record what is in common usage? If it is the latter, then you must lead by example.

 

[Trekker4747]

"#" is called a "pound sign" or sometmes "hash." But more often I see it called "pound."

But not in UK. This is 'pound' sign: £.

Well, because of their silly money.

But here you call a place and get the automated system "#" is "pound", you write out in shorthand "3 pounds" it'll be "3#" but I've heard it called "hash" at times too but mostly since the "hashtag" became the thing-to-do in Twitter.

Could just call it what I did when I was a kid, a "tic-tac-toe sign."

 

[Lindley]

(I was being serious. I never, ever use it myself. I thought it had become vestigial, like the ampersand.)

The ampersand is also widely used in programming languages.

 

[lurok]

"#" is called a "pound sign" or sometmes "hash." But more often I see it called "pound."

But not in UK. This is 'pound' sign: £.

Well, because of their silly money.

How dare you, sir

I humbly submit we should call any new irony sign: the Izzard.

 

[Goliath]

Not all fonts have it, so you can use this image if you want. Drag it to your bookmarks bar. Drag it from there into your posts.

Huh. I didn't even know I could do that. Thanks.

No, really. Thanks.

As to whether we should bring it back: Is there a 'Ministry of Punctuation' which declares whether these symbols are in or out?

In a sense. They're called "schools".

Or do grammar experts simply record what is in common usage? If it is the latter, then you must lead by example.

 

[Jadzia]

"#" is called a "pound sign" or sometmes "hash." But more often I see it called "pound."

£ = pound sign
# = hash

Your confusion is due to the bygone days of computing.

Computer text was originally encoded in ASCII, which was one byte per character.

European keyboards had £ on shift-3, while American keyboards had # on shift-3. But in both locales, shift-3 encoded to the same ASCII code (hex-23).

What this meant was that when Americans read British documents, hex-23 appeared to them as a hash symbol, even though it was typed as pound sign in Britain. The Americans learned to call # a pound sign because that was how it was being used, even though it's completely wrong to call it that.

 

[K'Ehleyr]

But not in UK. This is 'pound' sign: £.

Well, because of their silly money.

How dare you, sir

I humbly submit we should call any new irony sign: the Izzard.

I concur with your outrage, and I'm starting to think we have a very similar sense of humour