Why does the Phoenix have Bussard collectors?

[Crazy Eddie]

I don't really care about the logistics Alpha.
I know they didn't put as much thought into this as we did. I'm not necessarily saying they should but at least...make it believable. I'm not desperate to make their haphazard FX work in real life.

Then what are you even doing here? Unless you're trying to make the case that, all evidence to the contrary, Zephram Cochrane is supposed to have launch an antimatter-fueled space craft with a mass of 75 tons equipped with warp coils made of (lol) dark matter on a one hundred year old rocket that couldn't lift a tenth of that into orbit?

Gotta source for that? (just curious)

I have the papers sitting on my desk downstairs, but the best online source would be here. No reference for the 450MW produced by the first prototype, but the Phase 3 reactor produced about 4.1GW total.

Sorry, Alpha it's not irrelevant, at least not logically.

Actually, it's EXTREMELY relevant. There is simply no reason for Cochrane to use an actual Titan-II, and no realistic way for him to have obtained one in good working order. The only thing you can say is that he either acquired a NEW missile that also happened to be named Titan, or he obtained a modern ICBM with a completely different name, painted it like the Gemini launch vehicle (being a 60s nostalgia nut and all) and named it "Titan" himself.

Either way, it isn't a 1960s ICBM, and was never intended to be interpreted as such.

ETA: And I checked Crissie's site. Nowhere in FC is the missile ever IN DIALOG identified as a Titan-II rocket. Production materials describe it as the Titan-V (a fictional new addition to the Titan family) but it could just as easily be a Peacekeeper-VI repainted to look like a Gemini booster. Whatever it is, Cochrane's rocket has a Titanium casing, where the Titan family were all steel and aluminum.

That's wonderfully obvious but I'm looking for the deduction from that to density.

Why would you need to know the density since you haven't bothered to compare their relative VOLUME? Phoenix is not even the same length as the shuttle, let alone the same fuselage width (it's thinner) let alone the same internal arrangement (less structural reinforcement) let alone the Phoenix not having a pair of gigantic delta wings. It's a smaller spacecraft with a completely different design and a completely different flight regime; apples and oranges.

Again, three Shenzhou craft stacked one on top of the other to equal the Phoenix's length would have a mass of just over 21 tons. Density wise, Phoenix is going to be more similar to a non-returnable orbiter stack than a reusable spaceplane anyway.

Well like I said size to weight ratio.

Size and length are not the same thing.

I appreciate the thought but the internal power systems of the Phoenix could eaily account for that mass. Like i said 136 tons just for the portion of the TITAN II the Phoenix would take up.

Of which 127 tons was FUEL.

No matter how you slice it that Rocket does not have the ability of anywhere near 4 million lbs of thrust and neither does a Nerva.

Which is irrelevant because Nerva was only ever meant to be used as an upper stage. Click the link I gave you and do the math. With 333kN of thrust, a specific impulse of 850 seconds and 120 tons of propellant, Nerva (a 34 ton stage BY ITSELF) would have a Delta-V of 11.6 km/s; that's MORE THAN ENOUGH to circularize an orbit for an upper stage, and this for an engine that was designed in the 1960s.

He's got anti matter. Where did he get that from?

Nowhere, because he doesn't.

warp cannot be achieved any other way.

Yes it can. Ask Ben Sisko.

That's the special part that the writers have always left out. They pretend that the M/AR is the big deal but it's really the subspace field that's special. No conventional terrestrial material is ever going to warp space.

Yes, because YOU know enough about subspace physics to determine that no conventional material is ever going to warp space.

You need Exotic matter of some kind. Whether created in a laboratory or found in interplanetary space....

Or a Z-machine and a particle accelerator.

I'm talking about the theta radiation reference which is well established in Trek to come from antimatter.

With no reference to say it comes ONLY from antimatter, so the point is moot.

So, retcon it towards something closer to its original purpose. The "intermix chamber" is just a manifold where ionized plasma is combined with another energetic reactant prior to consumption by the warp nacelles. For example, ionized hydrogen superheated to 6000K combined with a specific vanadium isomer that emits gravitons in the presence of high electric potentials.

OMG...a intermix chanber is not a manifold.

It is on the Phoenix.

 

[Saquist]

Then what are you even doing here? Unless you're trying to make the case that, all evidence to the contrary, Zephram Cochrane is supposed to have launch an antimatter-fueled space craft with a mass of 75 tons equipped with warp coils made of (lol) dark matter on a one hundred year old rocket that couldn't lift a tenth of that into orbit?

Shrug...it's trivia....Nothing more nothing less.

I have the papers sitting on my desk downstairs, but the best online source would be here. No reference for the 450MW produced by the first prototype, but the Phase 3 reactor produced about 4.1GW total.

Yeah I've read it twice now...

Actually, it's EXTREMELY relevant. There is simply no reason for Cochrane to use an actual Titan-II, and no realistic way for him to have obtained one in good working order. The only thing you can say is that he either acquired a NEW missile that also happened to be named Titan, or he obtained a modern ICBM with a completely different name, painted it like the Gemini launch vehicle (being a 60s nostalgia nut and all) and named it "Titan" himself.

Yeah well those aren't the only options.
That's why I said it's not irrelevant.

ETA: And I checked Crissie's site. Nowhere in FC is the missile ever IN DIALOG identified as a Titan-II rocket. Production materials describe it as the Titan-V (a fictional new addition to the Titan family) but it could just as easily be a Peacekeeper-VI repainted to look like a Gemini booster. Whatever it is, Cochrane's rocket has a Titanium casing, where the Titan family were all steel and aluminum.

I already knew that.
I also know that it's showing us a TITAN II Rocket.

Why would you need to know the density since you haven't bothered to compare their relative VOLUME? Phoenix is not even the same length as the shuttle, let alone the same fuselage width (it's thinner) let alone the same internal arrangement (less structural reinforcement) let alone the Phoenix not having a pair of gigantic delta wings.

None of that really matters we have the proper comparison for a TITAN II ICB which it fits precisely and those estimates for the weight from the shuttle comparison are WELL within tolerance. I already pointed out the apples and oranges and the likes and dislikes.

Size and length are not the same thing.

That's what she said....

Of which 127 tons was FUEL.

Yep...

Which is irrelevant because Nerva was only ever meant to be used as an upper stage. Click the link I gave you and do the math. With 333kN of thrust, a specific impulse of 850 seconds and 120 tons of propellant, Nerva (a 34 ton stage BY ITSELF) would have a Delta-V of 11.6 km/s; that's MORE THAN ENOUGH to circularize an orbit for an upper stage, and this for an engine that was designed in the 1960s.

No I don't think so.
There is no way a hundred and twenty tones of propellant is going to fit on the Phonix with the subsystem map we see.

Nowhere, because he doesn't.

You may not want to believe it but that's where the evidence points.

Yes it can. Ask Ben Sisko.

Why?

Yes, because YOU know enough about subspace physics to determine that no conventional material is ever going to warp space.

I know enough about Quantum Mechanics.
Space warping is the power of black holes and physic bridges and every scenario requires some kind of exotic matter to make it possible but you can continue believing in the magic fields that Trek uses but you're sitting here arguing Rocket Science so try and keep some perspective.

Or a Z-machine and a particle accelerator.

That's baryonic matter...

With no reference to say it comes ONLY from antimatter, so the point is moot.

It's mute to you. Believe what you want but don't tell me to believe it. Under canon and logic we have a smoking gun. Negative proof is a fallacy all it's own. You can't argue that it's not what it seems with out evidence to the contrary. Don't just be contentious for the sake of being contentious. If you're going to argue that it is not as canon says it is you need (if not canon material) a realistic source of theta radiation....

Oh wait...it's fictional.
(shucks)

It is on the Phoenix.

Get under an engine.
2 Outs and one In is not any sort manifold. It's a splitter, a Y junction. Actually look up what a manifold is and don't use the wiki to define it. Phoenix's manifold and intermix wasn't the same device.

 

[Patrickivan]

So glad I came up with a topic that stimulated conversation.

Man, I don't even know what they're talking about anymore. They lost me on page 5...

 

[Crazy Eddie]

I also know that it's showing us a TITAN II Rocket.

Now it's not, because a Titan-II has two engines in its first stage where Cochrane's rocket only has one.

None of that really matters we have the proper comparison for a TITAN II ICB which it fits precisely

What does that even mean? That they kinda-sorta have the same paint job? What does that have to do with... anything?

No I don't think so.
There is no way a hundred and twenty tones of propellant is going to fit on the Phonix with the subsystem map we see.

No such map ever appears in the film, so I'm not sure how that matters.

In either case, reduce that down to 40 tons of propellant (this reduces your mass fraction a bit) and that gives you a Delta-V of about 6km/s. Again, this for an engine using 1960s technology.

Why?

Because Ben and Jake proved in "Explorers" that it is possible to travel faster than light using nothing more sophisticated than a solar sail.

I know enough about Quantum Mechanics.

Of course, and I'm sure the only reason you haven't invented warp drive yourself is because you don't have access to dark matter.

Space warping is the power of black holes...

Under general relativity, space warping is a property of ANY massive object of virtually any size. Once you've figured out how to do this WITHOUT using mass/energy, you've got a warp engine.

That's baryonic matter...

And?

With no reference to say it comes ONLY from antimatter, so the point is moot.

It's mute to you. Believe what you want but don't tell me to believe it. Under canon and logic we have a smoking gun.

Lack of ANY reference to antimatter = "smoking gun" to you? Despite the fact that the radiation is described as coming from the "damaged throttle assembly?"

Fail logic is fail.

If you're going to argue that it is not as canon says it is you need (if not canon material) a realistic source of theta radiation....

Theta radiation, unlike antimatter, is not a real thing. Antimatter does not emit anything known as "theta radiation" in any known reaction, so the term is probably a blanket concept for a range of emissions--alpha rays, beta rays, x-rays, gamma rays, etc--known to cause damage to human tissues and/or DNA.

Which would explain why it's coming from a damaged throttle assembly. One of the control drums must have been stuck in a wrong position.

It is on the Phoenix.

Get under an engine.
2 Outs and one In is not any sort manifold. It's a splitter, a Y junction.

Which is why I specified an engine with (at least) two ins and two outs.

 

[TIN_MAN]

What exactly is dark matter anyway? beyond a catch all term for some form of invisable mass in the universe, nobody knows, not even physisists have a real clue!

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Nobody knows WHAT it is, but the term "dark matter" is a hypothetical material that has (at least most of) the following properties:

- It does not interact with normal matter in any way EXCEPT through gravitational interaction
- It does not reflect or absorb radiation
- It is not composed of nucleonic matter
- It accounts for 99% of the mass of the universe

Personally I think the entire concept is bollocks, but for reasons that should be obvious, you cannot make warp coils--or anything else--out of dark matter: you cannot touch it, you cannot interact with it, you cannot even SEE it, the only thing you can do is be attracted by its gravitational field. Unless Zephram Cochrane spent the last few years harvesting Nibler's litterbox, he wouldn't even have a means to OBTAIN the stuff, let alone fashion a warp engine out of it.

 

[Saquist]

Now it's not, because a Titan-II has two engines in its first stage where Cochrane's rocket only has one.

That doesn't mean it wasn't a Titan II.

What does that even mean? That they kinda-sorta have the same paint job? What does that have to do with... anything?

If you think same footage means paint job. Sure why not...

No such map ever appears in the film, so I'm not sure how that matters.

If you think about it, you might figure it out.

In either case, reduce that down to 40 tons of propellant (this reduces your mass fraction a bit) and that gives you a Delta-V of about 6km/s. Again, this for an engine using 1960s technology.

You're just playing around with the numbers at this point. Do you want me to actually draft the fuel tanks to give you there proper volume or do you want to keep guessing?

Because Ben and Jake proved in "Explorers" that it is possible to travel faster than light using nothing more sophisticated than a solar sail.

Oh...that stupidity....
Are you going to try and make that little bit creative license work in reality too...

Of course, and I'm sure the only reason you haven't invented warp drive yourself is because you don't have access to dark matter.

That's not even a guarantee either. It all depends on the properties of the Dark Matter. But some sort of Exotic Matter would be necessary to warp space because normal baryonic matter requires huge helpings to warp space.

Under general relativity, space warping is a property of ANY massive object of virtually any size.

Once you've figured out how to do this WITHOUT using mass/energy, you've got a warp engine.

What do you mean "without Mass/Energy? Please Explain.

Lack of ANY reference to antimatter = "smoking gun" to you? Despite the fact that the radiation is described as coming from the "damaged throttle assembly?"

The term "smoking gun" was originally, and is still primarily, a reference to an object or fact that serves as conclusive evidence of a crime or similar act. In addition to this, its meaning has evolved in uses completely unrelated to criminal activity: for example, scientific evidence that is highly suggestive in favor of a particular hypothesis is sometimes called smoking gun evidence. Its name originally came from the idea of finding a smoking (i.e., very recently fired) gun on the person of a suspect wanted for shooting someone, which in that situation would be nearly unshakable proof of having committed the crime. A piece of evidence that falls just short of being conclusive is sometimes referred to as a "smoldering gun."

So spelling it out (because you need it apparently)
If canon has no other reference to Theta Radiation causes...
If Theta radiation is completely fiction...
Then logic in the context of canon deduces is anti-matter. We've eliminated any realistic cause of theta radiation and our sources only give us one explanation for the radiation. Anti-matter. It's definitely a no brainer.

Anything you come with (which you haven't come up with anything) will be pure conjecture. You can believe your own conjecture. But again, don't me to set aside the facts for no reason. There is no reason not to believe it's not anti-matter. The Throttle Assembly is not a negative indication. Not in reality.

Fail logic is fail.

Is that some sort of cliche all pupose catch phrase when you think you've executed a logical argument but don't or can't actually spell out the deductions?

Theta radiation, unlike antimatter, is not a real thing. Antimatter does not emit anything known as "theta radiation" in any known reaction, so the term is probably a blanket concept for a range of emissions--alpha rays, beta rays, x-rays, gamma rays, etc--known to cause damage to human tissues and/or DNA.

I really don't care, Alpha.
We have a proper explanation from canon. You fishing around trying to solve every discontinuity is your own time to waste. You don't have to include me on these particular portions because I'm always going to stop with the most canon source. The only time I speculate on this level is just to give some creative resolution (which I believe is what you're doing) but I don't pass that speculation off as sacrosanct or above the canon explanation.

Which is why I specified an engine with (at least) two ins and two outs.

OMG...that is not a manifold either...
You're looking for one out... or one in and multiple splits not just two. Not a splitter or convergence junction. Good Grief Alpha, a Manifold isn't an all purpose term like Star Trek uses it.

What exactly is dark matter anyway? beyond a catch all term for some form of invisable mass in the universe, nobody knows, not even physisists have a real clue!

Dark Matter is part of the classification of Exotic Matter, which deals with particles that viewed as hypothetical or uncommon forms of matter. There are multiple canidates for Dark Matter from Photons to Brown Dwarfs and even neutrinos.

For me, I think Dark matter (or one form) is neutrinos because we have deduced that they do have mass and they do exist in massive numbers in the universe.

 

[TIN_MAN]

Like I said, nobody has a clue. Or, as I like to call it...
"Fabricated Ad hoc Inventions Repeatedly Invoked in Efforts to Defend Untenable Scientific Theories" (FAIRIE DUST).

 

[Saquist]

Like I said, nobody has a clue. Or, as I like to call it...
"Fabricated Ad hoc Inventions Repeatedly Invoked in Efforts to Defend Untenable Scientific Theories" (FAIRIE DUST).

Unquestionably.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Now it's not, because a Titan-II has two engines in its first stage where Cochrane's rocket only has one.

That doesn't mean it wasn't a Titan II.

Yes it does.

What does that even mean? That they kinda-sorta have the same paint job? What does that have to do with... anything?

If you think same footage means paint job. Sure why not...

What in the bloody hell are you even talking about?

Oh...that stupidity....
Are you going to try and make that little bit creative license work in reality too...

It works in the Trekiverse, which is where Phoenix exists.

That's not even a guarantee either. It all depends on the properties of the Dark Matter. But some sort of Exotic Matter would be necessary to warp space because normal baryonic matter requires huge helpings to warp space.

Or a severely distorted energy condition, which could theoretically be obtained from zero-point energy or other similar effect.

So spelling it out (because you need it apparently)
If canon has no other reference to Theta Radiation causes...
If Theta radiation is completely fiction...
Then logic in the context of canon deduces is anti-matter.

Fail logic redux: theta radiation can also be produced by ordinary lab equipment and is a standard feature of NX-01's decontamination chamber. More to the point: antimatter does not ACTUALLY produce anything we call "theta radiation." It's the exact same situation when Starfleet science officers refer to nerve agents as "biogenic weapons." Since nerve agents are real things, we can deduce from this that the term "biogenic weapon" is a blanket term that includes both chemical and biological weapons.

As described, and considering the assosciation with antimatter, "theta radiation" is just another term for ionizing radiation (much the way "plasma" is just a catch-all term for ionized gas).

I really don't care, Alpha.
We have a proper explanation from canon.

Yes we do. Theta radiation is a blanket term for all forms of ionizing radiation.

Which is why I specified an engine with (at least) two ins and two outs.

OMG...that is not a manifold either...
You're looking for one out... or one in and multiple splits not just two.

Uh huh...

Linky.

Are you loosing your mind or just being a jerk? I can't tell.

 

[Saquist]

Yes it does.

What in the bloody hell are you even talking about?

That all depends on what you're talking about.

It works in the Trekiverse, which is where Phoenix exists.

It's fiction what do you expect?

Or a severely distorted energy condition, which could theoretically be obtained from zero-point energy or other similar effect.

You're talking about producing an effect of mass with out it.
Would you like to explain how that is done with zero-point energy?

Fail logic redux: theta radiation can also be produced by ordinary lab equipment and is a standard feature of NX-01's decontamination chamber.

First you're assuming that those instruments produced the radiation, rather than emitted which doesn't prove it wasn't a contaminated antimatter source. We also don't know how ordinary the lab equipment was.

I looked over of the MA article and they simply don't come to the same conclusions you do. The opening line is quite clear. "contaminated antimatter byproducts". You're making assumptions in your premise that fit your conclusion and negating the sources information. But you're calling my statements a failure in logic....

If you want to counter the source that's one thing but finding a failure in logic means more than making making unfounded assumptions as a counter.

antimatter does not ACTUALLY produce anything we call "theta radiation." It's the exact same situation when Starfleet science officers refer to nerve agents as "biogenic weapons." Since nerve agents are real things, we can deduce from this that the term "biogenic weapon" is a blanket term that includes both chemical and biological weapons.

We know we're not dealing with real science but seeing how you're pouring over the material you haven't taken the obvious avenue to the "theta radiation thus antimatter argument" But I like how MA attempts to round out even that avenue. They clearly believe theta radiation is from antimatter and it's byproducts.

As described, and considering the assosciation with antimatter, "theta radiation" is just another term for ionizing radiation (much the way "plasma" is just a catch-all term for ionized gas).

Yes we do. Theta radiation is a blanket term for all forms of ionizing radiation.

The article says that Theta radiation "presumably" related to antimatter radiation. But if you presume that Theta radiation is simply a general term for all forms of ionizing radiation, then Delta Radiation would be the same general term aswell, so where are we now?

Uh huh...

Linky.

Are you loosing your mind or just being a jerk? I can't tell.

Don't be dense.

Then this is a manifold...
http://www.troyerperformance.com/cgi-bin/ppistore.pl?user_action=detail&catalogno=10758

Then this is a manifold...
http://www.key-ideas.com/DGKurTwo2-031603-Exhaust-2.html

Then this is a manifold...
http://www.rpaperformance.com/

Then this is a manifold...
http://www.typeoneracing.com/blog/?m=200809

Rather they're Y connectors or T junctions. You found a part that was misnamed. Happens all the time in english

A manifold, in systems for moving fluids or gases is a junction of pipes or channels, typically bringing one into many or many into one.~wiki

The word manifold comes from the Old English word manigfeald (from the Anglo-Saxon manig [many] and feald [fold]) and refers to the folding together of multiple inputs and outputs.~wiki

Multiple
consisting of, having, or involving several or many individuals, parts, elements, relations, etc.; manifold.~dictionary.com

...which fits with the etymology of manifold but because engineering is a bit more specific we have Y-connectors T-Junctions, Multiple axis joints and manifolds delineating between just two splits and multiple splits and how they split. Every bill of materials I've ever filled out has made a distinct difference between these two items. This all goes to naming conventions. I don't know how many times in R&D we have renamed something a manufacturer has labeled because it's inaccurate.

So I'm not being a jerk. I'm sticking to the standard I've always known and have been held to by shop personnel and the implied understanding of my own system engineer.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

You're talking about producing an effect of mass with out it.
Would you like to explain how that is done with zero-point energy?

Mass and energy are equivalent, so relativistically speaking, you should be able to create a space warp by concentrating a large amount of energy in a very small space. If you had some method of altering the behavior of vacuum fluctuations in a region of space around your ship, you could take advantage of those fluctuations to produce a buildup of energy in one direction and a depression in the other. Over time, this would build up to a large enough energy to warp space and produce a pseudo-gravitational force (similar to the alcubierre metric).

Of course, this is Trek science; you could just as easily make up some "undiscovered" physical process of producing electrogravitic fields and using them to warp space.

First you're assuming that those instruments produced the radiation, rather than emitted which doesn't prove it wasn't a contaminated antimatter source.

It wasn't. The decon chamber is DESIGNED to emit theta radiation in order to kill microorganisms. It was also used by Trip Tucker in NX-01's physics lab in an attempt to manufacture Trellium-D (where no mention of any new/special equipment is made).

I looked over of the MA article and they simply don't come to the same conclusions you do. The opening line is quite clear. "contaminated antimatter byproducts". You're making assumptions in your premise that fit your conclusion and negating the sources information.

Actually, I looked it up from Ex Astris and checked the episodes myself. Bernd describes it as consisting of "subspace energy," which is sort of implied in "The Omega Directive" (btw, Omega particles also emit theta radiation).

We know we're not dealing with real science

Star Trek ATTEMPTS to be real as much as possible, which is why they try to use REAL concepts as much as possible to fit the properties of their technology. Hence the use of, say, antimatter instead of "tylium" or "dragonite" or some fanficul made-up substance. They chose to use something that really exists, so we can't simply handwave its real properties out of existence and substitute them with fictional ones.

The article says that Theta radiation "presumably" related to antimatter radiation.

The article is wrong, as it is also produced by Omega Particles. Actually, the one and only time it's directly associated with antimatter is in "Night," where Torres essentially describes it as a byproduct of ANY antimatter reaction and that the radiation itself is actually captured and converted into electricity (thus it would fit the bill as ionizing radiation: far-UV through gamma). In "Juggernaut" the useage becomes so sloppy that we get to hear about theta tanks, theta cores, and--oh yes--"theta gas."

Bernd correctly pins it as a byproduct of warp drives in general and is probably what Scotty was talking about in TWOK (and is therefore what ultimately killed Spock when he opened the dilithium chamber). Thus by origin and by effect, it is identical to ionizing radiation.

But if you presume that Theta radiation is simply a general term for all forms of ionizing radiation, then Delta Radiation would be the same general term aswell, so where are we now?

In the same way that "S-Band" is a subset of "radio," then Delta rays are a subset of "theta radiation." All of which, anyway, is a subset of electromagnetic radiation.

A manifold, in systems for moving fluids or gases is a junction of pipes or channels, typically bringing one into many or many into one

Yes. Point here is, Phoenix is not a car, not is it based on automotive engineering conventions. The basic definition of "manifold" is general enough to describe a multi-valved Y or T-junction (as it does in the space shuttle, where the feed-line manifold from the external tank is merely a three-way splitter to the SSMEs).

The good news is, you're not out of your mind.

 

[Saquist]

Mass and energy are equivalent, so relativistically speaking, you should be able to create a space warp by concentrating a large amount of energy in a very small space.

And produce the effect of mass with pure energy?
I need...source for research.

Actually, I looked it up from Ex Astris and checked the episodes myself. Bernd describes it as consisting of "subspace energy," which is sort of implied in "The Omega Directive" (btw, Omega particles also emit theta radiation).

I'm leaving the theta radiation issue alone, too much interpretation. (BTW) Omega was a molecule not a particle.

The article is wrong, as it is also produced by Omega Particles. Actually, the one and only time it's directly associated with antimatter is in "Night," where Torres essentially describes it as a byproduct of ANY antimatter reaction and that the radiation itself is actually captured and converted into electricity (thus it would fit the bill as ionizing radiation: far-UV through gamma). In "Juggernaut" the useage becomes so sloppy that we get to hear about theta tanks, theta cores, and--oh yes--"theta gas."

That's fine if you want to contest the source and it's perfectly valid but don't attack me because of. MA is a perfectly useful source. From time to time they do get things wrong.

(I disagree because they are dumping waste. That should be particle radiation such as Beta or Alpha Radiation. How are supposed to dump Gamma rays?)

The basic definition of "manifold" is general enough to describe a multi-valved Y or T-junction (as it does in the space shuttle, where the feed-line manifold from the external tank is merely a three-way splitter to the SSMEs).

The good news is, you're not out of your mind.

That the perfect example one in and three outs.
You see if they called every Y and T junction a "manifold" then it's not specific, there would be numerous manifolds through out the system under the impulse or warp engines and to just say...Impulse manifold is then just a pretense of specifics.

Funny in reality the actual designation for those joints isn't manifold, that's why I object to the use of the word.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Mass and energy are equivalent, so relativistically speaking, you should be able to create a space warp by concentrating a large amount of energy in a very small space.

And produce the effect of mass with pure energy?
I need...source for research.

Special relativity already predicts this in terms of relativistic mass; that is to say, a fast-moving object has more kinetic energy than a stationary one, which means that the object's inertial will increase the more energy you impart on it in a given reference frame. Although relativistic mass doesn't ACTUALLY make the object heavier, some interpretations say the added energy behaves like mass and increases the object's gravitational field. I don't happen to believe this myself, but it's one theory I've heard a number of times.

That's fine if you want to contest the source and it's perfectly valid but don't attack me because of.

I'm not. I simply said that theta radiation does NOT directly imply the Phoenix was fueled by antimatter, since Theta radiation comes from multiple sources and not JUST from antimatter. It appears, actually, to be a blanket term for ionizing radiation, which would be consistent with the original writer's intent that Phoenix was powered by a plutonium core.

(I disagree because they are dumping waste. That should be particle radiation such as Beta or Alpha Radiation. How are supposed to dump Gamma rays?)

You wouldn't dump either one, you would dump the SOURCE of that waste. Spent uranium fuel, IIRC, also emits some gamma radiation as well as alpha and beta rays. The combination of the three is, IMO, what "theta radiation" describes. The "inoculation" against it is probably some sort of nanomachine injection that swims around in your bloodstream and quickly repairs and replaces damaged cells.

That the perfect example one in and three outs.

Assuming a classic (i.e. 23rd century) intermix chamber, would that include the EPS taps?

Anyway, it's really just a point of trivia, since as far as I can tell nobody in the film actually mentions any sort of manifold that wouldn't otherwise by part of the booster rocket; the "throttle assembly," for example, is never referred to as such.

You see if they called every Y and T junction a "manifold" then it's not specific, there would be numerous manifolds through out the system under the impulse or warp engines and to just say...Impulse manifold is then just a pretense of specifics.

Funny in reality the actual designation for those joints isn't manifold, that's why I object to the use of the word.

Granted, but I had something pretty specific in mind when I was talking about Phoenix's possible intermix configuration. If it's powered by a fission reactor, then we could very well be looking at a chamber with several inputs from a bank of several helicon arrays--electrically ionizing hydrogen gas--which are then combined into a single stream, induced to extreme high voltage, and then split into two feeds to the warp nacelles as an energized plasma.

 

[sojourner]

God, this is 8 pages of awesome.

 

[Mike Have-Not]

God, this is 8 pages of awesome.

I, for one, have been kept entertained by this thread lately :-)

Sometimes I get lost in the line-by-line debating for hours :-p

 

[Saquist]

Special relativity already predicts this in terms of relativistic mass; that is to say, a fast-moving object has more kinetic energy than a stationary one, which means that the object's inertial will increase the more energy you impart on it in a given reference frame. Although relativistic mass doesn't ACTUALLY make the object heavier, some interpretations say the added energy behaves like mass and increases the object's gravitational field. I don't happen to believe this myself, but it's one theory I've heard a number of times.

OMG relativistic mass is sort of disputed in that light.
Now...I'm not one of the people that disputes the application of relativistic mass but I understand the principle of equivalence. But this is more indicative of the question of what gravity is and Einstein noted the similarities between Gravity and acceleration. Since they are equal I have to assume that what we perceive as gravity from massive bodies is wrong. (I know that's bold) But it seems to me that if acceleration and deceleration could create the same effect as a gravitational field then likely Gravity is a larger sense of deceleration not some mysterious effect of a vague origins.

It's a fascinating part of science. But that's why I believe dark matter is a big deal. I've heard lots of estimates on the total amount in the universe from 30 to 90%. But if we found out exactly what it is like we narrowed down black holes by there effects on other matter then we might discover the secrets behind gravity itself.

I'm not. I simply said that theta radiation does NOT directly imply the Phoenix was fueled by antimatter, since Theta radiation comes from multiple sources and not JUST from antimatter. It appears, actually, to be a blanket term for ionizing radiation, which would be consistent with the original writer's intent that Phoenix was powered by a plutonium core.

You wouldn't dump either one, you would dump the SOURCE of that waste. Spent uranium fuel, IIRC, also emits some gamma radiation as well as alpha and beta rays. The combination of the three is, IMO, what "theta radiation" describes. The "inoculation" against it is probably some sort of nanomachine injection that swims around in your bloodstream and quickly repairs and replaces damaged cells.

Whoa there. I have learned since high school that alpha radiation positive charged particles not ionizing radation and beta radiation was negatively charged particle radiation. But gamma radiation is represented by an elementary particle or the conveyor of the electromagnetic force, a boson. Alpha radiation could be like helium and are caused by ionizing radiation. Therefore particle radiation can be "dumped" such what they're doing with the Fukishima plant in Japan because much of the radiation is caused by gamma radiation from the spend fuel rods but the short term impact is contaminating water and resource with alpha and beta radiation which is more enduring but easily blocked.

Assuming a classic (i.e. 23rd century) intermix chamber, would that include the EPS taps?

THAT is exactly what I always believed was a true Trek manifold. I imagined each tap either was seperate splitter but in succession at interval or that it was indeed an single splitter. The advantage of single splits along the length of the PTC is redundancy so that if one of those taps overloaded it would take out half the ships power. But the EPS power distribution would require multiple manifolds as points of divergence from each the starboard and Port PTC to every deck or primary system junctions.

Granted, but I had something pretty specific in mind when I was talking about Phoenix's possible intermix configuration. If it's powered by a fission reactor, then we could very well be looking at a chamber with several inputs from a bank of several helicon arrays--electrically ionizing hydrogen gas--which are then combined into a single stream, induced to extreme high voltage, and then split into two feeds to the warp nacelles as an energized plasma.

Okay I'm having trouble visualizing this. Becauce I have several fundamental blocks for the technology being used. Such as intermix (chamber).

From the top describe how you be believe the Phoenix power systems work. Describe it's Emergency power system (that which starts the Primary), the Primary system, how that power is then transfered to the nacelles. Describe it's Secondary propulsion and how it all best fits the terminology used in one Wall of text (if necessary) so I can get the sense of the big picture. (leave out the first stage lift)

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I just found picture of the complete missile after reconfiguration. Phoenix is a couple of meters shorter than expected but the booster is much larger than I expected. It seems to have around 30% more volume than I expected.

http://www.neutralzone.de/database/PreFederation/21thcentury/TitanVRocket.htm

 

[Tiberius]

They aren't Bussard Collectors.

They're Cochrane's equivilent of the spirals they put on jet engines so you can tell if they are working. it just gives him a way to look out the window and see if they are working right.

:P

 

[Ronald Held]

I have no idea where this is going.

 

[Santaman]

^ Into chaos and disorder and then a few bad words, fighting and finally a thread closure... what else?