Why does the Phoenix have Bussard collectors?

[Crazy Eddie]

What else do we need? Everybody around Cochrane seems to credit him with the invention. Nobody expresses a contrary sentiment, not even Lily Sloane. And that ought to rule out the idea that the ST:FC "Cochrane" is some random guy who stepped in the boots of the real Cochrane who looked like Glenn Corbett.

I'm not saying he's impersonating Zephram Cochrane. I'm saying that Zephram Cochrane's role in the invention of warp drive appears to have been grossly exaggerated... BY ZEPHRAM COCHRANE. And if you go by First Contact, it would appear that the Enterprise crew were the ones who originally gave him the idea to take all the credit himself. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy: Cochrane goes on to claim that he alone developed the warp drive engine and bask in the spotlight as history retcons the facts and identifies him as a great man. Why? Because he has been told by the Enterprise crew that history says he alone developed the warp drive and is a great man. Since clearly nobody's going to care about the facts anyway, he might as well take the credit.

When did Lily get a chance to set the record straight on this issue? The entire time on the Enterprise Picard mentions Cochrane's role in history only once, when he says "Actually we're not unlike yourself and Doctor Cochrane," to which Lily quietly snickers. She doesn't get to sit through any of the gushing about what a great man Cochrane is and doesn't get the chance to say "Zephram? He's just a janitor. Mike Ocuda The Third invented the actual drive."

They're a must-have for the Federation style of warp, though.

Only (apparently) in the 24th century. Those caps are never canonically identified in TOS, nor is the grillework on the front of the TMP vessels identified as having any similar function. The Excelsior and Oberth classes do not have ANY identifiable features there.


And to weigh in on the antimatter issue, I can only AGAIN point out that the script for FC explicitly described the Phoenix's warp drive as being powered by plutonium salvaged from a nuclear warhead. Data's line about Cochrane converting a WMD into an instrument of peace makes sense ONLY in that context, since an ICBM by itself is not actually a weapon.

 

[The Librarian]

What else do we need? Everybody around Cochrane seems to credit him with the invention. Nobody expresses a contrary sentiment, not even Lily Sloane. And that ought to rule out the idea that the ST:FC "Cochrane" is some random guy who stepped in the boots of the real Cochrane who looked like Glenn Corbett.

I'm not saying he's impersonating Zephram Cochrane. I'm saying that Zephram Cochrane's role in the invention of warp drive appears to have been grossly exaggerated... BY ZEPHRAM COCHRANE. And if you go by First Contact, it would appear that the Enterprise crew were the ones who originally gave him the idea to take all the credit himself. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy: Cochrane goes on to claim that he alone developed the warp drive engine and bask in the spotlight as history retcons the facts and identifies him as a great man. Why? Because he has been told by the Enterprise crew that history says he alone developed the warp drive and is a great man. Since clearly nobody's going to care about the facts anyway, he might as well take the credit.

When did Lily get a chance to set the record straight on this issue? The entire time on the Enterprise Picard mentions Cochrane's role in history only once, when he says "Actually we're not unlike yourself and Doctor Cochrane," to which Lily quietly snickers. She doesn't get to sit through any of the gushing about what a great man Cochrane is and doesn't get the chance to say "Zephram? He's just a janitor. Mike Ocuda The Third invented the actual drive."

I imagine the claim to inventing the 'first' warp drive is rather like the claim to inventing powered flight. Everyone remembers the Wright brothers and their flyer and (unless you're French and/or Brazilian) forgets Santos-Dumont and the 14-Bis. They basically built their planes simultaneously and there were plenty of others close behind. I imagine that there's some teams in other parts of the world who are really, really annoyed that Cochrane got there first and took all the credit.

 

[Patrickivan]

What else do we need? Everybody around Cochrane seems to credit him with the invention. Nobody expresses a contrary sentiment, not even Lily Sloane. And that ought to rule out the idea that the ST:FC "Cochrane" is some random guy who stepped in the boots of the real Cochrane who looked like Glenn Corbett.

I'm not saying he's impersonating Zephram Cochrane. I'm saying that Zephram Cochrane's role in the invention of warp drive appears to have been grossly exaggerated... BY ZEPHRAM COCHRANE. And if you go by First Contact, it would appear that the Enterprise crew were the ones who originally gave him the idea to take all the credit himself. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy: Cochrane goes on to claim that he alone developed the warp drive engine and bask in the spotlight as history retcons the facts and identifies him as a great man. Why? Because he has been told by the Enterprise crew that history says he alone developed the warp drive and is a great man. Since clearly nobody's going to care about the facts anyway, he might as well take the credit.

When did Lily get a chance to set the record straight on this issue? The entire time on the Enterprise Picard mentions Cochrane's role in history only once, when he says "Actually we're not unlike yourself and Doctor Cochrane," to which Lily quietly snickers. She doesn't get to sit through any of the gushing about what a great man Cochrane is and doesn't get the chance to say "Zephram? He's just a janitor. Mike Ocuda The Third invented the actual drive."

They're a must-have for the Federation style of warp, though.

Only (apparently) in the 24th century. Those caps are never canonically identified in TOS, nor is the grillework on the front of the TMP vessels identified as having any similar function. The Excelsior and Oberth classes do not have ANY identifiable features there.


And to weigh in on the antimatter issue, I can only AGAIN point out that the script for FC explicitly described the Phoenix's warp drive as being powered by plutonium salvaged from a nuclear warhead. Data's line about Cochrane converting a WMD into an instrument of peace makes sense ONLY in that context, since an ICBM by itself is not actually a weapon.

The FC crew didn't make Cochrane claim anything. Remember- it was the Borg who damaged the ship that caused Cochrane to lose hope. And then it was the FC crew that scared him by telling him how famous he'd be when that wasn't what he was seeking.

It was then that they had to convince him to get back on track. Back on track is key. They knew he developed it. Kirk and Spock knew it. I am surprised this is even a discussion. Trek lore has him inventing it.

Anyway, back to the OP question. My point still remains after reading this thread, that the BC's were an integral part of the overall warp engine concept and design, and while not critical in this particular flight, they were incorporated non-the-less for flight data purposes.

 

[Timo]

We're lastly told that Cochrane made the Phoenix .. in a cave.. with a box of scraps.

Cochrane did it in a distinctly high-tech cave - one with plenty of spare parts for spacecraft.

And nothing requires us to believe he did it all after WWIII, or during it. All we need to believe is that he launched after the war. The warp testbed might have been 99% ready when the first bombs fell, and Cochrane mainly spent the next ten years trying to find the missing three optical circuit boards and the five cans of thermoresistant paint.

It's mostly a matter of choosing the zero level. After the Hundred Years War, it would have been pretty unlikely for anybody to cobble together a working aircraft. Right after WWI, people built those in garages. During WWII, people built those inside prison camps, right under the noses of their guards! There's no particular reason to think that building of spacecraft would not be trivially easy in the 21st century of Star Trek, or that commercial systems for storing antimatter wouldn't be ubiquitous.

Cochrane goes on to claim that he alone developed the warp drive engine

Does he? Where in Trek do we get the impression that he did it all solo, blindfolded and his left hand tied behind his back, while whistling Yankee Doodle backwards?

All Trek tells us is that he did it. Not solo, not whistling, not in any specific circumstances that would be contradicted by ST:FC. He invented the warp drive, he discovered the space warp; those may have been one and the same feat, depending on how quickly the discovery resulted in a practical application, or perhaps how quickly a practical application yielded theoretical data that revealed the nature of the space warp. Oppenheimer invented the atomic bomb, although a few thousand generally uncredited people helped him in it. The Wright brothers invented the powered heavier-than-air craft, although a few thousand generally uncredited people were behind their success, having done the math, invented the internal combustion engine, perfected the airfoil, created the materials needed. Al Gore invented the internet. Why complicate such clear-cut statements with the dull facts of life?

Nowhere in Trek, least of all in ST:FC, is it suggested that Cochrane would have lacked the backing of a team of experts, a chain of universities, a mighty superpower nation or, for all we know, two. He had to complete his first test flight in abysmal conditions because somebody decided to have an armageddon war. But his invention is not stated to have been made during the war, as the result of the war, or anything like that - it was made despite the war.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Crazy Eddie]

The FC crew didn't make Cochrane claim anything. Remember- it was the Borg who damaged the ship that caused Cochrane to lose hope.

Three artillery shells from an unknown source is enough for "To hell with the Phoenix." How do you suppose he reacted to World War Three? The man who throws in the towel at the first possible excuse is probably NOT the cornerstone of the entire program.

And then it was the FC crew that scared him by telling him how famous he'd be when that wasn't what he was seeking.

Giving him his SECOND excuse to try and bail on the Phoenix. That would be like going up to the Wright Brothers and trying to talk them into inventing powered flight and winding up holding them in their shop at gunpoint, building the Wright flyer yourself, and then making them fly it.

Back on track is key. They knew he developed it. Kirk and Spock knew it.

And the question is, WOULD HE be credited with having invented it if the Enterprise hadn't shown up? If the Enterprise-E returned to its original timeline, then the Borg interference in Montana was ALREADY part of their timeline, and therefore so is Enterprise's intervention with Cochrane's flight (something Kirk and Spock would NOT have been aware of).

When the Enterprise-E crew was not aware of was that Cochrane was not a visionary, in fact had very little vision at all and virtually no motivation. They did not really CARE, however, because the results of the flight were more important than how they came about (hence their willingness to tell Cochrane all about the future and the Borg etc etc). You have to wonder what ELSE they were not aware of going into this situation, or if it would have changed anything if they did know.

My point still remains after reading this thread, that the BC's were an integral part of the overall warp engine concept and design

But they're not, because they were never identified as such in TOS or TMP. We don't know what those caps are or what they do until the 24th century, when their function could be entirely different than in their earlier counterparts.

 

[Patrickivan]

The FC crew didn't make Cochrane claim anything. Remember- it was the Borg who damaged the ship that caused Cochrane to lose hope.

Three artillery shells from an unknown source is enough for "To hell with the Phoenix." How do you suppose he reacted to World War Three? The man who throws in the towel at the first possible excuse is probably NOT the cornerstone of the entire program.

And then it was the FC crew that scared him by telling him how famous he'd be when that wasn't what he was seeking.

Giving him his SECOND excuse to try and bail on the Phoenix. That would be like going up to the Wright Brothers and trying to talk them into inventing powered flight and winding up holding them in their shop at gunpoint, building the Wright flyer yourself, and then making them fly it.

Back on track is key. They knew he developed it. Kirk and Spock knew it.

And the question is, WOULD HE be credited with having invented it if the Enterprise hadn't shown up? If the Enterprise-E returned to its original timeline, then the Borg interference in Montana was ALREADY part of their timeline, and therefore so is Enterprise's intervention with Cochrane's flight (something Kirk and Spock would NOT have been aware of).

When the Enterprise-E crew was not aware of was that Cochrane was not a visionary, in fact had very little vision at all and virtually no motivation. They did not really CARE, however, because the results of the flight were more important than how they came about (hence their willingness to tell Cochrane all about the future and the Borg etc etc). You have to wonder what ELSE they were not aware of going into this situation, or if it would have changed anything if they did know.

My point still remains after reading this thread, that the BC's were an integral part of the overall warp engine concept and design

But they're not, because they were never identified as such in TOS or TMP. We don't know what those caps are or what they do until the 24th century, when their function could be entirely different than in their earlier counterparts.

Look- the guy had already gone through a lot of stuff before the Enterprise showed up. He was just pushed too far. And the burden that the Enterprise crew puts on him on top of the knowledge that people have travelled from the future? That's a lot of heavy stuff to put on someone.

As for credit. Well, Kirk and Spock seemed to know who Cochrane was. So unless you're suggesting that TOS is actually post FC influence, (and maybe that's what you are suggesting), then there's your reference.

Now as for the BC's... Because it was mentioned in TNG what the BC's are, we can surmise that based on similar design, that these were indeed BC's on this ship and TOS's Enterprise. And it's just that, a theory based on evidence.

Now here's what you're saying essentially: here are three wheels from three different time periods, that all look very much alike, but because they were only called a "wheel" in the most recent time period, and NEVER called a wheel before, we can therefore conclude that these are absolutely NOT wheels.

I'm not trying to suggest you're wrong entirely. I'm simply saying that your logic behind your conclusion needs to be re-worked. The absence of evidence is not evidence to base a conclusion on. But the evidence I cite is simply a physical characteristic that is very much similar through 300 years of Star Trek and that evidence is hard to ignore completely.

Though you may be right after-all. Who knows. It is Star Trek after all. Ships have been known to also magically double in size.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Look- the guy had already gone through a lot of stuff before the Enterprise showed up. He was just pushed too far. And the burden that the Enterprise crew puts on him on top of the knowledge that people have travelled from the future? That's a lot of heavy stuff to put on someone.

Same problem in either case. Cochrane is WAY too willing to just up and walk away from the Phoenix for it to have been that important to him. Clearly it was important to SOMEONE, just not so much to HIM. Even Picard says as much, "He wouldn't walk away from this ship, it was his dream, it meant everything to him." Turns out he didn't give a shit one way or the other.

Phoenix was somebody's baby, but it sure as hell wasn't Cochrane's.

As for credit. Well, Kirk and Spock seemed to know who Cochrane was. So unless you're suggesting that TOS is actually post FC influence, (and maybe that's what you are suggesting), then there's your reference.

In TOS he's the "discoverer of the space warp," not the inventor of warp drive.

Now as for the BC's... Because it was mentioned in TNG what the BC's are

Nope. In TNG they're referred to as "hydrogen collectors," and in DS9 and Nemesis they're referred to as "ramscoops." Their actual function is never described, except that the only time they are ever mentioned is when they're being used to collect and then dump interstellar material.

We can surmise that based on similar design, that these were indeed BC's on this ship and TOS's Enterprise. And it's just that, a theory based on evidence.

Why would we surmise that when TOS contains no reference of any kind to ramscoops being used in ANY capacity, let alone replenishing ship's fuel?

Now here's what you're saying essentially: here are three wheels from three different time periods, that all look very much alike, but because they were only called a "wheel" in the most recent time period, and NEVER called a wheel before, we can therefore conclude that these are absolutely NOT wheels.

You're confusing your analogies. We know the Phoenix has a warp engine. We know it has nacelles. That is obvious. What we're talking about is a SPECIFIC COMPONENT of a warp engine that not all warp engines actually have. You're looking at a shiny bulb in the middle of the wheel and saying "The Phoenix has hubcaps." If it's part of the physical rim of the tire, though, it's not a hubcap, it's a rim.

It doesn't matter what the caps LOOK LIKE, what matters is what they do. There's no evidence or even suggestion that they do anything at all, even in TOS. Their function isn't even that clear in TNG for that matter.

 

[Ronald Held]

I still do not see enough evidence for a M/AM reactor. Starting antimatter production much earlier make me doubt that the facilities are there. Maybe the hardware was worked on for decades. the DY-100 was fission powered, and that was state of the art around 2000

 

[Timo]

Cochrane is WAY too willing to just up and walk away from the Phoenix for it to have been that important to him.

Wrong tense. It's not important to him at that timepoint. But he has already invented it - it's ready for its first flight when the Borg come. The achievements are all in the past, and Cochrane probably never ever dreamed of flying the contraption himself, booze or no booze. Oppenheimer never flew the Enola Gay, either.

Whatever Cochrane is, he's not a test pilot for the program. That he himself makes abundantly clear.

In TOS he's the "discoverer of the space warp," not the inventor of warp drive.

Which is probably the same thing. Theory leads to practice - and due to the armageddon war, the same team is tasked with both halves of the equation, with the practical doers pruned from the organization by well-placed bombs. Or, more probably, Cochrane's aeronautical engineers and test pilots gave their lives to the war effort, and if they did survive their tours of duty, they didn't return to work with Cochrane.

the DY-100 was fission powered, and that was state of the art around 2000

We were only told that the DY-100 and her ilk had "simple nuclear-powered engines", to be sure. No mention of fission vs. fusion vs. some other type of nuclear reaction that the 21st century of Trek might have harnessed.

The somewhat later Charybdis was stated to have a "gas-core fission reaction propulsion system" in an Okudagram that apparently never made it to the actual episode. Or if the transparency was installed on the E-D science station monitor, it was lit when the camera was turned away. So that bit remains just as noncanonical as Sternbach's ideas on how Ares IV was powered or propelled.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Patrickivan]

I don't really have much more to say to present my side of the discussion. newtype_alpha did state that they weren't called BC's, but that they were stated to collect hydrogen. That was one of the primary functions of a BC. Memory Alpha and EAS, amongst others will say the same thing.

As for the "hubcaps" or glowing ends of the nacelles, it would seem quite odd (to me) that a componant seen on ships from the 24th century would mimic the look of 21st century componant, yet have two completely seperate functions... I'm just trying to think of a real world utilitarian expensive and complex piece of equipment that would do that. I mean a wheel from the 10th century does pretty much the same thing as a more refined contemporary wheel. The technology may be different, but the function is basically the same. No, you wouldn't put a 10th c wheel on a sports car, but nor would you put a 21st/ 22nd c BC on a galaxy class ship because while the function would be similar, it would be designed differently. Like a model T engine going into a ford F150.

That's really all I can say. Unless someone can present a reasonable in universe theory why, I'm going to stick with mine.

 

[Timo]

..they weren't called BC's, but that they were stated to collect hydrogen.

Actually, it's vice versa. In "Samaritan Snare", they are explicitly called "Bussard collectors", but their function is not clarified, and we subsequently see them belch out hydrogen instead of collecting it.

Earlier in the episode, when our heroes were sending cryptic messages to the kidnapped LaForge, Data did mention "hydrogen collectors", supposedly in order to make LaForge aware that they will be used later on in an attempt to free him - but Data didn't draw any direct connection between these hydrogen collectors and the later mention and use of Bussard collectors.

In "Night Terrors", the term "Bussard collectors" is again used, as is the more generic mention of "the collectors" - but once again, no collecting of hydrogen takes place, and instead the devices belch out a hydrogen stream.

In ST:Insurrection, the expression used for the nacelle forward thingamabobs is "ramscoop", and these are used for collecting gas. We don't know if this is a routine or exceptional use, to be sure.

The implication is more or less clear: BCs collect hydrogen, and can be reversed. But it's not explicit. If we want to, we can assign some other function to the BC tech, and even decide that these things collect something with the help of hydrogen, rather than collecting hydrogen!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Albertese]

I like Rick Sternbach's explanation above. It suggests that any ship with BC's on the front of the engines doesn't actually need a navigational deflector, explaining ships like the Daedalus, or Miranda and other's which do not explicitly carry such a device. perhaps the nav def is required for higher speeds. But low speeds are quite manageable with the BC's simply drawing free gases of every sort (mostly H in space) from out of the path of the shp proper. Another good reason to have them some distance from the hull, so the rest of the ship isn't subjected to friction from gases on their way to the collectors. Perhaps this was in fact the only purpose of collectors in the first place and the idea of utilizing the stored gases as fuel material came later. Perhaps originally the gases were stored and released as RCS exhaust.

Makes sense to me.

--Alex

 

[Timo]

It suggests that any ship with BC's on the front of the engines doesn't actually need a navigational deflector, explaining ships like the Daedalus, or Miranda

...The funny thing being that the Miranda not only lacks the glowing deflector, but also the glowing Bussard domes!

The sort-of-half-domes at the forward quarters of TMP style nacelles are fairly good candidates for successors to the TOS domes (better, IMHO, than the thin slits at the very bow). The thing is, though, they don't glow red or any other color at any flight mode...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Cochrane is WAY too willing to just up and walk away from the Phoenix for it to have been that important to him.

Wrong tense. It's not important to him at that timepoint. But he has already invented it - it's ready for its first flight when the Borg come. The achievements are all in the past, and Cochrane probably never ever dreamed of flying the contraption himself, booze or no booze. Oppenheimer never flew the Enola Gay, either.

Whatever Cochrane is, he's not a test pilot for the program. That he himself makes abundantly clear.

Oddly enough, test piloting the Phoenix is the only thing Cochrane actually DOES in the entire movie. If this is the only thing he DIDN'T need to do, then why did he go on the flight at all?

Which is probably the same thing.

No, it isn't. Einstein discovered mass-energy equivalence, but he cannot be credited with inventing the atomic bomb.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

I don't really have much more to say to present my side of the discussion. newtype_alpha did state that they weren't called BC's, but that they were stated to collect hydrogen...[/qu8ote]
But it is never said from where they're supposed to collect it. A device for extracting hydrogen from the upper atmosphere of a gas giant for refueling purposes would not be in the same category as a ramscoop, nor would an exhaust filter that extracts hydrogen from un-burned warp plasma to be recycled later (catalytic converter style).

As for the "hubcaps" or glowing ends of the nacelles, it would seem quite odd (to me) that a componant seen on ships from the 24th century would mimic the look of 21st century componant, yet have two completely seperate functions...

The similarity may be entirely superficial, like the difference between a 17th century naval cannon and a 20th century torpedo launcher. Their functions are similar in a lot of ways, but they are two completely different devices with two completely different functions.

And again, there's the complete lack of these features on the Refit Constitution, the Excelsior class, the Miranda class, the Oberth, and the vast majority of non-Starfleet designs.

[quote[I'm just trying to think of a real world utilitarian expensive and complex piece of equipment that would do that. I mean a wheel from the 10th century does pretty much the same thing as a more refined contemporary wheel.

And yet nobody's going to claim that a set of chrome spinners on a 21st century car tire serve the same purpose as the spokes of a 10th century wagon wheel. Doesn't matter if the LOOK similar, they're two completely different things.

Basically you can't judge functionality from cosmetic appearances, especially in spacecraft. If, for example, the front end of the nacelle is simply the ideal position to place any extremely high-energy device that also requires warp power, then it becomes a very good place for deflector shields, long range sensors, weapons, sensors, field stabilizers, ramscoops, structural integrity generators, etc.

 

[Albertese]

It suggests that any ship with BC's on the front of the engines doesn't actually need a navigational deflector, explaining ships like the Daedalus, or Miranda

...The funny thing being that the Miranda not only lacks the glowing deflector, but also the glowing Bussard domes!

The sort-of-half-domes at the forward quarters of TMP style nacelles are fairly good candidates for successors to the TOS domes (better, IMHO, than the thin slits at the very bow). The thing is, though, they don't glow red or any other color at any flight mode...

Timo Saloniemi

I fully expect that the TMP style nacelles did have some sort of BC arrangement. Also, I am solidly in the camp that the Reliant as seen in TWOK was a refit of an earlier TOS style ship (Surya or Coventry?) and no doubt still had the TOS style domes.

Also, later versions of TMP engines seen in TNG and DS9 in fact do have glowy red and blue bits. So I think that's fair there is comparable tech involved.

--Alex

 

[Saquist]

I happen to believe the Phoenix is fusion powered... for a short jump. Its not a practical exploration ship, after all. However, some of the auxiliary drawings indicate M/AM, like the blow-up chart that was made at time of the movie release. I will try to get a clear image of that. Not 'canon' but that's what someone was thinking.

Part of the ship - the booster, the four covers - clearly were abandoned and would have had to be recovered or remade if Picard had seen this in the Smithsonian. However the 'bottom' of the capsule is scored with lines that resemble shuttle heat resistant tiles. So, parachutes / re-entry seems quite possible for the capsule, with the main ship body remaining in orbit or possibly burning up on re-entry.

I can deliver some detailed pics if anyone is interested.

That would make sense but a fusion plant wouldn't be emitting ambient radiation from a "manifold" (They just love throwing around that word like it's some sort of combustible engine)

It would make more sense if it were a fissionable source...bu then I wouldn't know how you get the plasma....

Um, I thought Zef only installed the warp drive and the cockpit. All the rockets that were used to get the ship into orbit were already there. You don't think he built the P{hoenix from scratch, do you?

Well the Wiki says he built the whole thing.
So they make it sound as if the whole thing was made out of Missile. Which is completely ludicrous.

And let's not forget that a runabout's warp core can provide significant warp speeds for considerable time. Zef's ship barely managed warp 1 and only for a few seconds.

That's irrelevant, though.
Minaturazation of this sort of technology should take some decades if not some centuries. This is the First FTL and they decided to put (what we know is a unstable power system) on board a Rocket Lift System. Every indication is that this isn't a carfully engineered inovation but rather a rag tag collection of smart people looking to get rich...

Do you know how many failures Rocket creators have initially. Now it's true that even know people can build Rockets very competently. You don't need Nasa to do it but these are still huge organizations that do do it. Ever see Top Gear create a Space Shuttle out of car. Fantastic as explosions go but they didn't achieve their height goal to deploy the car.

Why?

Because a deactivated Fusion plant wouldn't Generate ambient radiation "from a manifold" nor would it need a manifold or an intermix chamber. We know it had plasma injectors. So if it's not a Fusion device then it's Antimatter Reactor.

You can't make a warp ship with 24th century technology either. Not in real life.

Sure but, we know of no technology that would allow them to do it Trek either.

Why not? People seem to be under the illusion that 21st century tech in Star Trek is somehow similar to 21st century tech in the real world. It's not. We have had interstellar probes for a decade now, artificial gravity for two. Why on Earth should it be even moderately difficult to build a starship out of garage junk when that junk in all likelihood consists of leftover antimatter batteries and flying belts?

For one it doesn't have the lift ability.
The only thing we know they have is ION drives (useless on the Ground), Rockets (Insufficient lift ability), Fusion (but we know the TITAN is a Rocket)

Huh? Nothing in TNG was supposed to be new tech, save perhaps for holodecks. And even that "perhaps" was later clarified when it was revealed that the civilian world had operated passable holoentertainment devices for several decades before "Encounter at Farpoint" - thereby establishing continuity with TAS "Practical Joker".

Huh is right.
I meant from the Constitution onward...

Again, not. Nothing in TOS was said to be new technology, save for the M-5 multitronic computer and its predecessor technology duotronics. Phasers, transporters, warp drives, shields... They were all old news. If some technology was considered "old" and not up to the hero ship standards, it was centuries old, as in "Where No Man Has Gone Before" or "Balance of Terror".

Young Eager beaver in the pilot makes it pretty clear they "broke the time barrier". To me that implies that warp before still was relativistic.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

That would make sense but a fusion plant wouldn't be emitting ambient radiation from a "manifold" (They just love throwing around that word like it's some sort of combustible engine)

It would make more sense if it were a fissionable source...bu then I wouldn't know how you get the plasma....

Why do you need plasma? The only reason modern starships use it is because it's incredibly difficult to transmit terawatts of energy to the warp coils through a medium that won't completely vaporize under that kind of load. If Phoenix is using some kind of superconducting conduits or a microwave power feed or something similar, it could run the engines from a conventional turbine generator.

Because a deactivated Fusion plant wouldn't Generate ambient radiation "from a manifold" nor would it need a manifold or an intermix chamber. We know it had plasma injectors. So if it's not a Fusion device then it's Antimatter Reactor.

I hate to be annoying with this, but I again point out that this is a result of muddled dialog between the original script and the final version. Originally, the warp drive was powered by a plutonium core from an old nuclear warhead; damage to the ship cracked the radiation shielding, which caused the leak. At the same time, though, the attack did not at all damage the Phoenix's warp drive, only the throttle assembly for its booster rocket, without which Phoenix could not reach orbit to properly conduct the test.

If you want to reconcile this with the final version, we might assume that Phoenix is equipped with a NERVA-style nuclear thermal reactor, and that the "throttle assembly" might be integrated into the radiation shielding not unlike NERVA's control drums.

 

[Saquist]

Why do you need plasma?

Because the ship has plasma injectors and warp plasma conduits.

I hate to be annoying with this, but I again point out that this is a result of muddled dialog between the original script and the final version. Originally, the warp drive was powered by a plutonium core from an old nuclear warhead; damage to the ship cracked the radiation shielding, which caused the leak. At the same time, though, the attack did not at all damage the Phoenix's warp drive, only the throttle assembly for its booster rocket, without which Phoenix could not reach orbit to properly conduct the test.

Alpha, It's in the script and there fore apart of canon.
It's sloppy writing. Look at the title of the Tread. This was clearly something that wasn't properly thought, written or designed. I don't make excuses for it but I appreciate you telling me that there was at least some concept of an alternate power source but that goes to what you've mentioned already. They already mentioned two devices that transfer plasma. When acknowledged the higher reasoning for plasma rather than the more traditional means of energy transfer...There is no way a Plutonium warhead from a TITAN nuclear missile of that size could generate that sort of power for plasma conduction.

If you want to reconcile this with the final version, we might assume that Phoenix is equipped with a NERVA-style nuclear thermal reactor, and that the "throttle assembly" might be integrated into the radiation shielding not unlike NERVA's control drums.

You mentioned it before and I'm looking at it again.
Looks like it only has an impulse 2x that of chemical Rockets. At a hundred tons or more that is no where near enough Thrust to haul that much Mass on a TITAN II Rocket. Maybe if it actually was it's Launch PAD brother the TITAN V but not an ICBM. And the risk of explosion...only 9 years after the worse nuclear disaster in history...I think Cochrane would be a hunted man if they knew he was doing this.

That's why this idea of a hodgepodge warp engine is utter stupidity and it's direct from Berman Productions. He had not the slightest clue of the so many relevent things to this project including his own continuity but even more basic than that his own plot and story. What ever happened to NASA consultants in Trek. They weren't even trying on this movie.

 

[T'Girl]

establishing the Bonaventure as the first ship with warp drive

Could be a matter of nomenclature, the Phoenix might not have been considered "a ship."

We're explicitly told that FC had a nuclear war (in direct opposition to TOS, which explicitly said we didn't get one after all).

The third world war referred to in FC killed 600 million per Riker, the third world war referred to in Bread And Circuses killed 600 million per Spock

Which is probably the same thing.

No, it isn't. Einstein discovered mass-energy equivalence, but he cannot be credited with inventing the atomic bomb.

Einstein's theoretical work and (perhaps more importantly) communications with President Roosevelt were instrumental in creating the first atomic weapons, without Einstein's participation atomic weapons might have still been eventually invented, but certainly not in the time frame that they were.

So he can definitely be one of those credited with their invention.

Phoenix could not reach orbit to properly conduct the test...

I don't think the Phoenix was ever intended to go into orbit, it really wasn't necassary for the purposes of the test, also at the time of first stage separation the ass end of the missile was pointed straight at the Earth, not the horizon as it would have been with a space craft moving into a orbit. The Phoenix went basically straight up, not into orbit.

If the warp drive for any reason hadn't engaged, she would have fallen straight back to Earth.

That would make sense but a fusion plant wouldn't be emitting ambient radiation from a "manifold" (They just love throwing around that word like it's some sort of combustible engine)

All a manifold is is a pipe with one inlet and multiple outlet, or the reverse.

If a fusion reactor is producing your charged plasma, you would need a manifold to divide and direct the plasma into two separate warp nacelles and then addition manifolds inside your nacelles to feed the incoming plasma to each individual warp coil.

nor would it need a manifold or an intermix chamber.

That would depend on how many reactants were involved in the fusion process, it doesn't have to be only deuterium-deuterium. A deuterium-tritium fuel mix would release more energy than a single reactant, and is actually easier to achieve. A hydrogen and boron mix is harder to achieve, however results in much less neutron radiation and would require less shielding (and weight).

Multiple reactants would require a environment at some point prior to entering the reactor chamber where they would be "mixed," perhaps in some kind of "intermix chamber."

Because a deactivated Fusion plant wouldn't Generate ambient radiation

In the real world, radiation from a deactivated fusion reactor could come from the fuel supply (if tritium is used) or from stored by-products of the fusion reaction. However a more likely source of radiation would be the reactor itself, a fusion reactor's structure would become radioactive over time from the neutrons produced by the reactors operation.

If Cochrane (or Sloane) operated the onboard reactor to test either it, or to ground test the warp drive (non-propulsively), the reactor might have had hundred of operating hours on it, plenty of time to pick up a dangerous level of radioactivity inside of it's protective containment housing. The Borg attack might have penetrated the protective housing, the attack did damage the spacecraft, the throttle and according to Barclay also a segment of a plasma conduit.

For one it doesn't have the lift ability. [snip] ... Rockets (Insufficient lift ability)

The Minuteman Three is what I believe Cochrane craft was made from (or a follow on), it's first stage can lift-off thirty-five metric tonnes, the first stage we saw was likely the missiles original first stage.