It was clearly just that one ship, Data puts them into the low-power repair cycle. And then the ship conveniently blows up...
Revisiting ST-TNG...
- Thread starter Warped9
- Start date
It was clearly just that one ship, Data puts them into the low-power repair cycle. And then the ship conveniently blows up...
Which is why you're not an enlightened 24th century human who doesn't value vengeance and blood over humanitarianism.
"The Next Phase" ***
After a transporter incident everyone believes Laforge and Ro are dead.
Part of me kinda likes this, but it's all hinged on some really shaky science ideas. Yeah, I know, it's "sci-fi," but still some things can be hard to accept. Laforge and Ro are supposed to be out of phase with normal matter yet they can still see unphased light, hear unphased sounds, breathe unphased air and while they can pass through walls and objects somehow they don't fall through the floor. Ehhh...yeah.
After a transporter incident everyone believes Laforge and Ro are dead.
Part of me kinda likes this, but it's all hinged on some really shaky science ideas. Yeah, I know, it's "sci-fi," but still some things can be hard to accept. Laforge and Ro are supposed to be out of phase with normal matter yet they can still see unphased light, hear unphased sounds, breathe unphased air and while they can pass through walls and objects somehow they don't fall through the floor. Ehhh...yeah.
Two more episodes to go to round off the season: "Inner Light" and "Time's Arrow" Part I.
"Inner Light" is an episode I'm wondering whether I'll like it more now then when I first saw it so many years ago. I remember thinking it slow and plodding although it's conceptually interesting. "Time's Arrow" I recall having quite a few humorous as well as creepy moments, but again I haven't seen it in a long time.
Even though I haven't finished Season 5 yet I have to say that I've found it to be generally bland and dull with few exceptions. It really feels like the series was running out of gas and just going through the motions after Seasons 2-4. At times I found it quite a chore to get through some of it.
"Inner Light" is an episode I'm wondering whether I'll like it more now then when I first saw it so many years ago. I remember thinking it slow and plodding although it's conceptually interesting. "Time's Arrow" I recall having quite a few humorous as well as creepy moments, but again I haven't seen it in a long time.
Even though I haven't finished Season 5 yet I have to say that I've found it to be generally bland and dull with few exceptions. It really feels like the series was running out of gas and just going through the motions after Seasons 2-4. At times I found it quite a chore to get through some of it.
Well, as I've stated here before, even people who love TNG acknowledge that the 5th season is one of the weakest (although the 7th is probably even worse.) And I will reiterate again, the 6th season, after a poor start of 4-5 episodes, develops into one of the most intriguing, different, and ambitious seasons of the show. It's also one of the better ones, along with season 3-4. Some of the episodes may fall flat, but unlike in the 5th season, you can rarely accuse the writers of not trying.
And by the way, when I first saw The Inner Light, as a kid, I too found it slow and uninvolving. When I rewatched it years later, as a husband and father, I found it heart-wrenching. It's probably the episode of the series that depends most on having lived enough life experience to understand and appreciate it. It really is a heartfelt and beautiful piece of work.
And by the way, when I first saw The Inner Light, as a kid, I too found it slow and uninvolving. When I rewatched it years later, as a husband and father, I found it heart-wrenching. It's probably the episode of the series that depends most on having lived enough life experience to understand and appreciate it. It really is a heartfelt and beautiful piece of work.
Exact opposite for me when it comes to the Inner Light. First saw it at 21 and found in an interesting concept. At 39, found it plodding and nearly unwatchable.
"The Inner Light" ****
Picard finds himself living an entire life an another world.
This is better than I remember it, but I still find it slow and rather low-key. I do find it curious that a world with such limited science and technology somehow manage the science to connect with an alien mind (Picard's) and manipulate it in such a way. It also strikes me that this alien society was presenting a rather clean and romanticized image of itself. If they were indeed practically human then I'm sure their real existence wasn't quite so sublime and orderly.
Conceptually it's interesting and it can cause one to reflect how humanity might deal with the imminent end of our own planet if we were faced with it today. This story is decently executed and that's what nudges it up to good. That said we soon get the idea of what's going on because they cut back to Picard unconscious on the deck of the bridge.
Picard finds himself living an entire life an another world.
This is better than I remember it, but I still find it slow and rather low-key. I do find it curious that a world with such limited science and technology somehow manage the science to connect with an alien mind (Picard's) and manipulate it in such a way. It also strikes me that this alien society was presenting a rather clean and romanticized image of itself. If they were indeed practically human then I'm sure their real existence wasn't quite so sublime and orderly.
Conceptually it's interesting and it can cause one to reflect how humanity might deal with the imminent end of our own planet if we were faced with it today. This story is decently executed and that's what nudges it up to good. That said we soon get the idea of what's going on because they cut back to Picard unconscious on the deck of the bridge.
Are "slow" and "low key" criticisms? I don't see how. Is the fact that this culture is showing a romanticized view of itself a criticism of the writing, or merely an observation? Because it would be highly unlikely if they didn't do that, I think. After all, we would. And, is the fact that we know from the start what is happening a criticism? Clearly, the episode is not meant to be a mystery, which was a clever choice, since it allows the viewer to concentrate instead on other more important things.
Anyway, Inner Light is, in my books, better than 90% of what the rest of the franchise (including TOS) has to offer. Why? Because I found it deeply moving, something I don't often associate with Star Trek. I felt deep sympathy both for Picard, and for this lost and forgotten race.
The fact that it's low-key isn't really a criticism, but it is quite slow moving. Yes, you're right they're are presenting a romanticized view of themselves and that isn't a fault of the writing. I admit that at this moment I'm not sure how it could be done differently.
As far as it being better than most other Trek including much of TOS...well, there we'll part company. I think I'm being a tad generous rating this as good because while I thought it was thought provoking I didn't find it very emotionally engaging. The whole idea is presented in a very plodding and bland manner. I've seen other TNG episodes that I've enjoyed a lot more and a lot of TOS episodes that I think are more effective and more enjoyable.
For me if "Inner Light" doesn't engage you either emotionally or at least intellectually then it could put one to sleep.
As far as it being better than most other Trek including much of TOS...well, there we'll part company. I think I'm being a tad generous rating this as good because while I thought it was thought provoking I didn't find it very emotionally engaging. The whole idea is presented in a very plodding and bland manner. I've seen other TNG episodes that I've enjoyed a lot more and a lot of TOS episodes that I think are more effective and more enjoyable.
For me if "Inner Light" doesn't engage you either emotionally or at least intellectually then it could put one to sleep.
I'd pretty much agree with all these ratings. In particular, everyone raves about Inner Light, but I just can't push it beyond 4 stars for me, for very similar reasons to those you outlined. I also think First Duty is a very underrated episode.
I'd grade Cause and Effect a star higher, but much of that is nostalgia for the fun I had when I first saw it. I'm surprised at the low ratings for both Violations and Conundrum though. I found both these episodes very compelling. Violations is an easy 4 stars for me; I thought they explored the rape theme pretty effectively for a family show. Conundrum I'd also easily give 4 stars to.
Mind you, the first time I saw it, I tuned in about five minutes in. So I had NO idea what was going in. I was basically in the same position as the crew, wondering what the hell just happened. I also had no idea as to the context of Macduff (didn't know that he only materialised after the aliens zapped the Enterprise with the memory beam), so wondered if he actually WAS Starfleet. Honestly, that made the ep a LOT more fun.
First time I saw the full episode from the start, I was kinda disappointed they made it so obvious. They should have just cut the teaser and started the episode without the setup.
Five stars for me. I love this episode both for its exploration of medical ethics, and for Worf's situation. Yes, the ending is a little bit of a cop-out, but at least they gave it some genuine suspense.
The Inner Light, as far as I'm concerned, is a perfect episode and one of the four or five best SF TV episodes I've seen. The concept is quintessentially TNG, but somehow the individual episode far transcends that.
Yeah, Season 5 is pretty weak. The sense of adventure was almost gone, the music was stamped firmly into wallpaper territory as this is the first full season with Ron Jones, and the show just became bland. There were a few standout episodes that I like including "Ensign Ro," "The Masterpiece Society," "Conundrum," "Cause & Effect," "The First Duty," and "The Next Phase," but that's really it. Most of the other episodes are meh to completely forgettable to bad. Give me the first or second season over this one any day!
You know, I have to agree with that.
For a long time I used to really trash those first two seasons of TNG, but as time goes by I'm becoming more and more fond of them. I still don't think they're perfect (IMO, they often suffered from clunky execution, and the acting was pretty abysmal across the board), but in terms of "rewatchability" (that same quality TOS has in such abundance) they're head and shoulders above what came later.
Really? I thought the Enterprise D was far better-looking than the others... Then again, I'm mostly a 24th century fan.
I'm concurrently running this thread on another message board and there was some question in regard to my rating system. And so for clarity I'll reiterate it here as well.
***** Excellent - An episode doesn't have to be note perfect to be considered excellent. In fact nothing is ever perfect. But ultimately I think an excellent episode is something you find genuinely rewarding and satisfying. You feel engaged and enthused after watching it. You feel that all the important things fell into place and the good far outweighs whatever quibbles you might have.
**** Good - Pretty much like excellent except your reservations might be a bit more pronounced. You generally enjoy the experience, but you feel it isn't quite there and it could have been better. Your reservations aren't that serious.
*** Fair - I guess the best word here is "inoffensive." It isn't flawed enough for you to call it poor, but you're not engaged and/or interested enough to call it good. It's just okay. Maybe the subject matter doesn't interest you or maybe there were good ideas in it, but they weren't addressed well enough.
** Poor - There may have been something of worth in this, but the execution is lacking. Or it could be polished, but it just doesn't engage you.
* Bad - It's a stupid idea and/or it's terribly done. It grates on your nerves and your immediate impulse is to just turn it off and go find something more interesting to do.
***** Excellent - An episode doesn't have to be note perfect to be considered excellent. In fact nothing is ever perfect. But ultimately I think an excellent episode is something you find genuinely rewarding and satisfying. You feel engaged and enthused after watching it. You feel that all the important things fell into place and the good far outweighs whatever quibbles you might have.
**** Good - Pretty much like excellent except your reservations might be a bit more pronounced. You generally enjoy the experience, but you feel it isn't quite there and it could have been better. Your reservations aren't that serious.
*** Fair - I guess the best word here is "inoffensive." It isn't flawed enough for you to call it poor, but you're not engaged and/or interested enough to call it good. It's just okay. Maybe the subject matter doesn't interest you or maybe there were good ideas in it, but they weren't addressed well enough.
** Poor - There may have been something of worth in this, but the execution is lacking. Or it could be polished, but it just doesn't engage you.
* Bad - It's a stupid idea and/or it's terribly done. It grates on your nerves and your immediate impulse is to just turn it off and go find something more interesting to do.
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My two cents about the Romulans in TNG is certainly Tomalak has presence. Now, Marc Alaimo played the first "modern" Romulan in TNG, and had be been a recurring Romulan adversary, he would've been effective!
"Time's Arrow" (Part I) ****
The Enterprise investigates evidence of an alien threat to 19th century Earth.
For me the best part of this was Data in 19th century San Francisco. There were some genuinely amusing moments in that. The rest of it was okay but the discovery that the aliens are feeding on the life forces of humans was kind of creepy.
Generally I'm not fond of this cliffhanger type of season ending, but so far it's been okay. And it's nice that today we don't actually have to wait some months to see the conclusion. Part of the appeal of this was seeing the characters out of their normal element. At this point, though, it's just Data and Guinan and through them we meet the amusing young Jack London and Mark Twain.
I generally liked this, but I wasn't over-the-moon about it. And there was a fair amount of temporal technobabble in it that just sounds so bogus.
The Enterprise investigates evidence of an alien threat to 19th century Earth.
For me the best part of this was Data in 19th century San Francisco. There were some genuinely amusing moments in that. The rest of it was okay but the discovery that the aliens are feeding on the life forces of humans was kind of creepy.
Generally I'm not fond of this cliffhanger type of season ending, but so far it's been okay. And it's nice that today we don't actually have to wait some months to see the conclusion. Part of the appeal of this was seeing the characters out of their normal element. At this point, though, it's just Data and Guinan and through them we meet the amusing young Jack London and Mark Twain.
I generally liked this, but I wasn't over-the-moon about it. And there was a fair amount of temporal technobabble in it that just sounds so bogus.
Season 1 episode average = 2.56
Season 2 episode average = 2.95
Season 3 episode average = 3.23
Season 4 episode average = 3.15
Season 5 episode average = 2.96
Season 5 takes another hit in average quality and making it effectively on par with Season 2. And yet it's percentage of poor-to-bad episodes compared to fair-to-excellent ones is exactly the same as season 4. Hmm...
30.7% poor to bad episodes
69.3% fair to excellent episodes
Season 5 ratings:
***** Excellent (7.6%)
“Darmok”
“Ensign Ro”
**** Good (26.9%)
“A Matter Of Time”
“The Masterpiece Society”
“Ethics”
“The First Duty”
“I, Borg”
“Inner Light”
“Time’s Arrow” (Part I)
*** Fair (34.6%)
“Redemption” (Part II)
“Silicon Avatar”
“Unification” (Part I)
“Unification” (Part II)
“Conundrum”
“Power Play”
“Cause And Effect”
“The Perfect Mate”
“The Next Phase”
** Poor (15.3%)
“The Game”
“New Ground”
“Hero Worship”
“Violations”
* Bad (15.3%)
“Disaster”
“The Outcast”
“The Cost Of Living”
“Imaginary Friend”
***** It doubles the number of excellent episodes from Season 4, but it's still below that of Seasons 2 and 3.
1st Season = 0 episodes
2nd Season = 3 episodes (13%)
3rd Season = 5 episodes (19%)
4th Season = 1 episode (3%)
5th Season = 2 episodes (7%)
**** The season takes a hit in good episodes from season 4 and puts more on the same terms as Seasons 2 and 3.
1st Season = 4 episodes (16%)
2nd Season = 6 episodes (27%)
3rd Season = 6 episodes (23%)
4th Season = 10 episodes (38%)
5th Season = 7 episodes (26%)
*** This is on par with season 1.
1st Season = 9 episodes (36%)
2nd Season = 5 episodes (22%)
3rd Season = 8 episodes (30%)
4th Season = 7 episodes (26%)
5th Season = 9 episodes (34%)
** Generally on track with the previous seasons.
1st Season = 9 episodes (36%)
2nd Season = 4 episodes (18%)
3rd Season = 4 episodes (18%)
4th Season = 5 episodes (19%)
5th Season = 4 episodes (15%)
* Stays pretty much the same.
1st Season = 3 episodes (12%)
2nd Season = 4 episodes (18%)
3rd Season = 3 episodes (11%)
4th Season = 3 episodes (11%)
5th Season = 4 episodes (15%)
Statistically there doesn't seem to be much of a difference in Season 5 from Season 4. How odd. I think the season suffered mostly in two parts---I think the latter half of the season really drops off in general and the there are a greater number of just fair episodes at the loss of good one. But the real distinction is the overall tone of the season---it feels a lot more off than previous seasons. In many instances there a discernible lack of energy throughout the season. It feels as if the cast and production crew were mostly going-through-the-motions without much enthusiasm.
Season 2 episode average = 2.95
Season 3 episode average = 3.23
Season 4 episode average = 3.15
Season 5 episode average = 2.96
Season 5 takes another hit in average quality and making it effectively on par with Season 2. And yet it's percentage of poor-to-bad episodes compared to fair-to-excellent ones is exactly the same as season 4. Hmm...
30.7% poor to bad episodes
69.3% fair to excellent episodes
Season 5 ratings:
***** Excellent (7.6%)
“Darmok”
“Ensign Ro”
**** Good (26.9%)
“A Matter Of Time”
“The Masterpiece Society”
“Ethics”
“The First Duty”
“I, Borg”
“Inner Light”
“Time’s Arrow” (Part I)
*** Fair (34.6%)
“Redemption” (Part II)
“Silicon Avatar”
“Unification” (Part I)
“Unification” (Part II)
“Conundrum”
“Power Play”
“Cause And Effect”
“The Perfect Mate”
“The Next Phase”
** Poor (15.3%)
“The Game”
“New Ground”
“Hero Worship”
“Violations”
* Bad (15.3%)
“Disaster”
“The Outcast”
“The Cost Of Living”
“Imaginary Friend”
***** It doubles the number of excellent episodes from Season 4, but it's still below that of Seasons 2 and 3.
1st Season = 0 episodes
2nd Season = 3 episodes (13%)
3rd Season = 5 episodes (19%)
4th Season = 1 episode (3%)
5th Season = 2 episodes (7%)
**** The season takes a hit in good episodes from season 4 and puts more on the same terms as Seasons 2 and 3.
1st Season = 4 episodes (16%)
2nd Season = 6 episodes (27%)
3rd Season = 6 episodes (23%)
4th Season = 10 episodes (38%)
5th Season = 7 episodes (26%)
*** This is on par with season 1.
1st Season = 9 episodes (36%)
2nd Season = 5 episodes (22%)
3rd Season = 8 episodes (30%)
4th Season = 7 episodes (26%)
5th Season = 9 episodes (34%)
** Generally on track with the previous seasons.
1st Season = 9 episodes (36%)
2nd Season = 4 episodes (18%)
3rd Season = 4 episodes (18%)
4th Season = 5 episodes (19%)
5th Season = 4 episodes (15%)
* Stays pretty much the same.
1st Season = 3 episodes (12%)
2nd Season = 4 episodes (18%)
3rd Season = 3 episodes (11%)
4th Season = 3 episodes (11%)
5th Season = 4 episodes (15%)
Statistically there doesn't seem to be much of a difference in Season 5 from Season 4. How odd. I think the season suffered mostly in two parts---I think the latter half of the season really drops off in general and the there are a greater number of just fair episodes at the loss of good one. But the real distinction is the overall tone of the season---it feels a lot more off than previous seasons. In many instances there a discernible lack of energy throughout the season. It feels as if the cast and production crew were mostly going-through-the-motions without much enthusiasm.
Here's breaking down the seasons in a little different way.
Good to Excellent - Here we see a sharp increase from Season 1 to 2 and then a gentler trend upwards...until Season 5 which really falls off. This gels with my overall impressions of the series so far.
Season 1 = 16%
Season 2 = 40.9
Season 3 = 42.3
Season 4 = 42.3
Season 5 = 34.6
Fair - Here the trend is up and down with an upswing in Season 5.
Season 1 = 36%
Season 2 = 22.7
Season 3 = 30.7
Season 4 = 26.9
Season 5 = 34.6
Poor to Bad - It trends downward from Season 1 to 3 then takes an upswing into Seasons 4 and 5. This also gels with my overall impression of the series so far.
Season 1 = 48%
Season 2 = 36.3
Season 3 = 26.9
Season 4 = 30.7
Season 5 = 30.7
General average:
Good to Excellent = 35.2%
Fair = 30.4%
Poor to Bad = 34.4
So it appears the ratios in overall quality are roughly in thirds. This is a little different than I remember which was liking about a quarter of the series and the rest I could dismiss or live without. That percentage so far has risen to a little better than a third.
The question is whether that trend will continue over the remaining two seasons.
Good to Excellent - Here we see a sharp increase from Season 1 to 2 and then a gentler trend upwards...until Season 5 which really falls off. This gels with my overall impressions of the series so far.
Season 1 = 16%
Season 2 = 40.9
Season 3 = 42.3
Season 4 = 42.3
Season 5 = 34.6
Fair - Here the trend is up and down with an upswing in Season 5.
Season 1 = 36%
Season 2 = 22.7
Season 3 = 30.7
Season 4 = 26.9
Season 5 = 34.6
Poor to Bad - It trends downward from Season 1 to 3 then takes an upswing into Seasons 4 and 5. This also gels with my overall impression of the series so far.
Season 1 = 48%
Season 2 = 36.3
Season 3 = 26.9
Season 4 = 30.7
Season 5 = 30.7
General average:
Good to Excellent = 35.2%
Fair = 30.4%
Poor to Bad = 34.4
So it appears the ratios in overall quality are roughly in thirds. This is a little different than I remember which was liking about a quarter of the series and the rest I could dismiss or live without. That percentage so far has risen to a little better than a third.
The question is whether that trend will continue over the remaining two seasons.
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