Revisiting ST-TNG...

[Trekker4747]

I always sort-of liked The Outcast's "message" in what it was trying to say. You don't think there's political and religious movements out there right now who'd love to be able to just "cure" someone of homosexuality and force it on people they deem to be "deviant?"

That message here works for me as it's trying to speak out this where societies get uptight about how others chose to live their lives even if it's a little bit different. I also think the episode shows how "non sexual" people are driven in the 24c as Soren is very much not the "type" we would attribute to Riker but clearly he's interested in her.

As for Worf his comments were that of plenty of people who get "weirded out" by gay people. So what? Your being "weirded out" means they're not supposed to be and live?

I think this is a great episode, personally.

 

[BillJ]

I always sort-of liked The Outcast's "message" in what it was trying to say. You don't think there's political and religious movements out there right now who'd love to be able to just "cure" someone of homosexuality and force it on people they deem to be "deviant?"

It's heart was in the right place, but The Outcast was poorly executed.

 

[Tomalak]

I always sort-of liked The Outcast's "message" in what it was trying to say. You don't think there's political and religious movements out there right now who'd love to be able to just "cure" someone of homosexuality and force it on people they deem to be "deviant?"

It's heart was in the right place, but The Outcast was poorly executed.

Yeah, this is my issue. It's one of Star Trek's only attempts to vaguely talk about homosexuality, and they pulled their punches and it doesn't have much impact. Nice speech at the end, but it's a pretty plodding episode. The fact that they cast a woman as Soren undermined the "message".

The sad fact is that none of the later series really improved upon this either.

 

[Warped9]

"The First Duty" ****

Wesley Crusher struggles with his conscience and divided loyalties following a flight accident.

This episode has been dumped on by some over the years, but I find I still like it. Wesley actually doesn't get on my nerves in this one and he's a good counterpoint to Nicholas Locarno. I really like when Picard lays it out for Wesley in his office. And Boothby is a prize. His scenes with Picard are good and it made me really want to know what it was Picard did as a Cadet to get into trouble.

I only have one nitpick albeit minor. Once again the Enterprise returns to Earth, underlining that the 1701D really isn't a deep space exploratory on the frontier. They can go home whenever they like.

 

[Anwar]

It's typical Trek speed of plot. Like how the Enterprise got back to Earth from the Mutara Sector in a short time in Wrath of Khan/Search for Spock, got back there in a short time, etc.

 

[Ubik]

Bah. You're crazy. Cause and Effect is awesome. And I've seen the X-Files episode you're talking about, and you're wrong, Cause and Effect is better. You know why? Atmosphere. Fantastic atmosphere. TNG was often very, very good at mysterious Twilight Zone creepy-type episodes, like Cause and Effect, Night Terrors, that sort of thing, and they're all about atmosphere. It's true, by season 7, there were too many bad ones of that type, but Cause and Effect is easily one of the best. Conundrum was another episode of that type that you didn't like as much as you should have - oh well. As you say, we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

[BillJ]

Conundrum was another episode of that type that you didn't like as much as you should have - oh well. As you say, we'll have to agree to disagree.

Why should he have liked it more... it was fucking stupid. I remember how to operate warp controls but I don't know what four pips mean.

I actually thought Warped9 has been rather generous to some of these episodes.

 

[Ubik]

Conundrum was another episode of that type that you didn't like as much as you should have - oh well. As you say, we'll have to agree to disagree.

Why should he have liked it more... it was fucking stupid. I remember how to operate warp controls but I don't know what four pips mean.

I actually thought Warped9 has been rather generous to some of these episodes.

Actually, when people get Alzheimers disease, that's precisely how random the memory loss is. Someone might remember how to do nuclear physics, but not know who that person living with them is. Or they might remember how to drive a car, but not know how to ride a bicycle. And that's real life we're talking about. So, it's not beyond the bounds of plausibility that when the alien race wiped out the memories of the crew, there would be strange and seemingly random side effects.

 

[Tomalak]

Yeah, and I liked Worf thinking he was in charge because he had the nice shiny sash.

 

[SchwEnt]

Conundrum was another episode of that type that you didn't like as much as you should have - oh well. As you say, we'll have to agree to disagree.

Why should he have liked it more... it was fucking stupid. I remember how to operate warp controls but I don't know what four pips mean.

I actually thought Warped9 has been rather generous to some of these episodes.

Actually, when people get Alzheimers disease, that's precisely how random the memory loss is. Someone might remember how to do nuclear physics, but not know who that person living with them is. Or they might remember how to drive a car, but not know how to ride a bicycle. And that's real life we're talking about. So, it's not beyond the bounds of plausibility that when the alien race wiped out the memories of the crew, there would be strange and seemingly random side effects.

But that's the point. It wasn't strange and seemingly random. It was a targeted attack on the crew, to the extent that names would be forgotten, but not technical knowledge. Memories of their earlier lives forgotten, but not their starship training. Knowledge of regulations and procedures intact, not memories of blue=medical and red=command and gold=engineering.

For this alien plan to work, very very specific items needed to be retained or forgotten. And this was across all species aboard the Enterprise, not to mention each individual brain. Is the alien mind technology that advanced, yet still incapable of conventionally defeating their enemy?

In fact, why drag the Enterprise into it at all?
Just direct their brain-attack against their enemies in the war so that they forget how to fight or resist or whatever is needed? How about that?

 

[Anwar]

Presumably their enemies would be familiar with that type of attack and be guarded by it.

 

[Rom's Sehlat]

Because it has happened 10 times already in their history, but since nobody could keep any records of the events...

 

[BillJ]

But that's the point. It wasn't strange and seemingly random. It was a targeted attack on the crew, to the extent that names would be forgotten, but not technical knowledge. Memories of their earlier lives forgotten, but not their starship training. Knowledge of regulations and procedures intact, not memories of blue=medical and red=command and gold=engineering.

That is one damned selective mind wiping beam.

 

[Trekker4747]

It still strikes me as odd that the bag-guy aliens could do so much to take over the Enterprise, a vastly more superior vessel, but couldn't take over their enemies in war. I mean, it's a really bad plot hole in your story when your own characters point it out!

 

[Anwar]

Like I said, their enemies would already likely know about this technique and be guarded against it.

 

[Herkimer Jitty]

Bah. You're crazy. Cause and Effect is awesome. And I've seen the X-Files episode you're talking about, and you're wrong, Cause and Effect is better. You know why? Atmosphere. Fantastic atmosphere. TNG was often very, very good at mysterious Twilight Zone creepy-type episodes, like Cause and Effect, Night Terrors, that sort of thing, and they're all about atmosphere. It's true, by season 7, there were too many bad ones of that type, but Cause and Effect is easily one of the best. Conundrum was another episode of that type that you didn't like as much as you should have - oh well. As you say, we'll have to agree to disagree.

Atmosphere doesn't make up for the writing, which really doesn't take advantage of the concept. Each loop is essentially exactly the same - the writers locked themselves into the concept, as opposed to playing around with it. This is an episode that is for me, a chore to re-watch.

 

[Noname Given]

Conundrum was another episode of that type that you didn't like as much as you should have - oh well. As you say, we'll have to agree to disagree.

Why should he have liked it more... it was fucking stupid. I remember how to operate warp controls but I don't know what four pips mean.

I actually thought Warped9 has been rather generous to some of these episodes.

Actually, when people get Alzheimers disease, that's precisely how random the memory loss is. Someone might remember how to do nuclear physics, but not know who that person living with them is. Or they might remember how to drive a car, but not know how to ride a bicycle. And that's real life we're talking about. So, it's not beyond the bounds of plausibility that when the alien race wiped out the memories of the crew, there would be strange and seemingly random side effects.

But for an alien beam (or a lower tech culture, and that was explicit to the story in that had they had equal or better tech, they wouldn't habve need the 1701-D) to be able to be THAT exact on 1000+ beings AND do that to a more advanced computer system... (Oh, and an alien officer familiar with Star Fleet protocols from a race the Federation has had no direct contact with previously...)

All in all the premise of the episode strained internal credability PAST the breaking point many times over. There was nothing for the viewer to get invested in story as it was obvious it was all just a setup and the only question for the viewer was - at what point would they snap out of it?

Neither race involved held anything extra for the viewer (for example had this been done BY the Romulans, Cardassians, etc - you might have a more involving story, but both races involved were 'alien of the week' - never seen before; and never seen since.

 

[Anwar]

That's one small shame of TNG, they could have easily used the recurring antagonist aliens like the Romulans or Cardassians in the place of several aliens-of-the-week with a few minor revisions.

Heck, the Borg could easily be used in the form of several uber-aliens or off-screen attacks they encountered. The aliens who were destroyed by Douwd in "The Survivors"? Just say it was a Borg ship/fleet and Kevin destroyed the Borg ships (instead of their entire species) and it fits.

 

[Canadave]

^ I think that episode would lose a lot of its impact in that case, though. Part of "The Survivors" brilliance is that chilling revelation that Douwd just caused an entire species to vanish. Wouldn't be the same if it were the Borg.

 

[Tomalak]

^ I think that episode would lose a lot of its impact in that case, though. Part of "The Survivors" brilliance is that chilling revelation that Douwd just caused an entire species to vanish. Wouldn't be the same if it were the Borg.

Exactly. It's the horror on Picard's face that an entire species he never heard of was wiped out in the blink of an eye. It's incomprehensible, and for an explorer, unfathomable.

The closing line of that episode is perfect. It's one of my favourite TNG stories actually.