Would you have helped out?

[MANT!]

Been there..done that..

in Brazil (of all places) I was in the Sao Paulo airport in the W.C. , the attendant (yes they still have attendants in public bathrooms there) was out for a few minutes when an elderly man in a wheelchair motioned for me to help him..I helped him out of the chair and onto the john when the attendant came back and with a cheerful "Obrigado" the old man thanked me... I'm glad I didn't have to clean up afterwards..but I felt compelled to assist...

 

[Shaw]

Re: Would you of helped out?

Well, yes, I would help the guy out... but I also volunteer help to people of special needs in our apartment complex, and I know that I'm physically strong enough to deal with most situations (and had to deal with similar situations with one of my cousins who had muscular dystrophy).

But I totally understand people not being comfortable with helping. Agreeing to help means taking on a measure of responsibility... and it shouldn't be taken lightly.

 

[An Officer]

Re: Would you of helped out?

I would help. And I would try to be discreet and as relaxed as possible to ease the other person's discomfort - it must be both scary and uncomfortable to go into a toilet with a complete stranger who is more able... There, but for the grace of god, go I.

 

[thestrangequark]

Re: Would you of helped out?

The following (for the most part) are valid points and I'm staying up past my bedtime to address them, but after this I'm going to sleep!

I can see where you're coming from, but let me ask this. This person that asked me to help him to the restroom, and I've seen around the school does not have anyone with him to help him with such tasks. But where or how does it make it acceptable to ask complete strangers for such help? In a way it's a form of self entitlement. I can understand something coming where a caregiver may not have been there for a day, but to continually come to school and expect someone to always help, that's rather selfish and arrogant. If he's at a university then he is mentally capable of understanding that.

Both of you are bringing a lot of what ifs into the scenarios, that would very reasonably affect how someone ought to deal with this situation.
My original post, and the viewpoint by which I stand, is intended to address the greater question of the meaning of dignity. Frankly, I think dignity is as convoluted a term as sexual morality. It's been so corrupted by different societal norms, religious customs, and cultural traditions over centuries that most people just regurgitate some standard definition with out really thinking about what it could be. In my humanistic worldview, dignity is defined as I said. It is the asking of help and offering of help, the overcoming of stupid societal mores and so-called "manners" (which in this case seem counter to the societal peace and pleasantness manners are supposed to foster), and doing what is right.

Now, when one complicates the situation of course the answers may change -- that is because, like anything else to do with real life, these situations don't occur in a vacuum. Every situation is different and one must consider safety and legality issues, certainly. Likewise the question of entitlement -- we don't know the exact circumstances this individual found himself in when he chose to ask for help, and until we do we have no right to judge whether or not his behavior was too assuming. But these aren't the points I'm arguing.

My point comes back to this:

No, needing help on the toilet doesn't make someone less of a person. A trained caregiver is a godsend to someone in that situation. But disabled persons don't have egos? I'd think at the end of the day, knowing you had to have a total stranger wipe your butt would be a bit of a downer to anyone.

Why should it be? I'm not talking about grieving the loss of abilities one once had -- rather the idea that not being entirely self-reliant in this way should be a knock to one's ego. Again, I find the person who can accept help with grace more dignified than the person who thinks it should be an issue.

That's kind of what this thread has become. At what point is too much doing too much? I have already said I have no problem seeing to it the person is safely to the toilet.

After that, a number of variables complicate "doing the right thing," including just what he needs to do in the toilet and how much he can't do himself. It isn't just the "gross-out" factor. Depending on the aid needed, it may be risky for an untrained person to render assistance beyond a certain point. In my case, I could be opening an entire university up to liability issues. That sounds crass, but it's very true.

There's also a public health issue, frankly. No trained person would do this without wearing protective gloves. Again, that sounds crass, but it's true.

Actually, I still think you're are missing my point. As I said, I understand that variable circumstances may change the answer. As I said, I understand that safety and legality concerns can complicate the matter. And as I said, I'm not arguing that point.

What's right or wrong has to be balanced by what is socially proper and safe (for everyone involved). You also seem to be enobling the disabled person a bit too much. Can this person be embarrassed by anything?

Firstly, I take particular concern at this:

What's right or wrong has to be balanced by what is socially proper

Seriously? I mean, really, seriously? By what's safe, sure, but by what's socially proper? I'm supposed to let some arbitrary ideals of propriety affect the morality of my behavior? Humans have a history of doing this, and it never turns out well. I would say that precisely the opposite is true: What's right or wrong exists independently of what we (currently, because it changes) deem socially proper, and regardless of the mores we ought to do the right thing.
Secondly, I'm not sure if you meant to write "enable" or "ennoble" there. "Ennoble" makes less sense, so I'll go with enable. If suggesting that an individual's worth is not based on whether or not he requires assistance on the toilet is to enable him -- well, I just can't see the negative in that. The OP made no indication that the individual in question implied that it was another's duty to help him. He just asked. There was no implied sense of entitlement.

No, losing self-reliance should not be a knock on one's ego or dignity. But having to rely on the "kindness of strangers" (so to speak) in a situation like this not going to set well with all disabled people. And probably, the prouder they are, the more embarrassed they'll be. This student must have been desparate to ask such a thing in the first place. I doubt the favor was asked as if it were no big deal.

I need to be more clear with my words, because, granted "no big deal" is defined completely differently by everybody. Sure, a person who's newly disabled will likely find it much more of an issue to require assistance with such things than will someone who has been assisted at the toilet all his life. But this is all besides the point I am making. My point really has nothing to do with the perceived embarrassment of the individuals in question, I am addressing specifically the assertion that helping a disabled individual at the toilet is somehow undignified for either party. It is not.

I mean, we're going to have to agree to disagree, here. I think there is a social boundaries line that can be crossed. I think there are safety issues that must be weighed against "doing right" given the situation. Hell, like everything else, there are even legal issues. I think both people can try to act dignified about it, but at the end of the day, both will wish it hadn't happened.

We can agree to disagree on where social boundaries should be drawn, and how dignity is defined, but (and I mean no offense), I quite frankly find it sad that one's dignity should be compromised in the eyes of oneself or others simply because he requires help getting on the john.

 

[Sector 7]

Re: Would you of helped out?

I am both appalled and cheered by this thread.

I am appalled that anyone could think "let nature take its course" or to let them suffer. Personally, those who are so uncaring may be less entitled to life than those who struggle much harder to survive on a daily basis.

To those who say they would say, "No," I understand your discomfort in such a situation and appreciate your honesty. My own brother tells me often that he could not take care of our mother the way that I do.

I have said, "Yes" on multiple occasions because I understand the helplessness of someone in that situation. Bedpan duty is a daily chore for me, because my mom is here in a hospital bed... and, yes, I wipe her bottom afterward.

Once, in a movie theater, the teenage kid sitting next to me asked me if I'd help him go to the bathroom. At first, I said, can't someone in your family help? He replied, I don't want my mom taking me to the girls restroom. Please? That is when I noticed both arms were in casts... and felt ashamed for not wanting to help. I thought about what I would feel like in that situation and I did help him.

To those who would like to help, but don't know what to do... ASK. All you have to say is, "What help do you actually need. I'm not sure what to do." Believe it or not, they may say, "just open the door" or "I can't stand up by myself, but once you get me started...", etc. THEN you can decide if you want to do all that person needs. My godson has Cerebral Palsy so I have some idea of what is involved. (He's not shy. He'd not only ask, he'd give you specific directions!) I remember pushing him to learn to self-transfer so he would not be as dependent on others. Now he self-transfers (gets in and out of his wheelchair by himself) easily.

I am cheered to know that there are others who have taken care of family members with disabilities. Maybe we should start a TrekBBS Caregivers Club. THANK YOU for all you do for them!!

Whew, that was a long post for me!

 

[Amaris]

Re: Would you of helped out?

I am both appalled and cheered by this thread.

I am appalled that anyone could think "let nature take its course" or to let them suffer. Personally, those who are so uncaring may be less entitled to life than those who struggle much harder to survive on a daily basis.

To those who say they would say, "No," I understand your discomfort in such a situation and appreciate your honesty. My own brother tells me often that he could not take care of our mother the way that I do.

I have said, "Yes" on multiple occasions because I understand the helplessness of someone in that situation. Bedpan duty is a daily chore for me, because my mom is here in a hospital bed... and, yes, I wipe her bottom afterward.

Once, in a movie theater, the teenage kid sitting next to me asked me if I'd help him go to the bathroom. At first, I said, can't someone in your family help? He replied, I don't want my mom taking me to the girls restroom. Please? That is when I noticed both arms were in casts... and felt ashamed for not wanting to help. I thought about what I would feel like in that situation and I did help him.

To those who would like to help, but don't know what to do... ASK. All you have to say is, "What help do you actually need. I'm not sure what to do." Believe it or not, they may say, "just open the door" or "I can't stand up by myself, but once you get me started...", etc. THEN you can decide if you want to do all that person needs. My godson has Cerebral Palsy so I have some idea of what is involved. (He's not shy. He'd not only ask, he'd give you specific directions!) I remember pushing him to learn to self-transfer so he would not be as dependent on others. Now he self-transfers (gets in and out of his wheelchair by himself) easily.

I am cheered to know that there are others who have taken care of family members with disabilities. Maybe we should start a TrekBBS Caregivers Club. THANK YOU for all you do for them!!

Whew, that was a long post for me!

[hugs] I know exactly how you feel.

 

[Sector 7]

Re: Would you of helped out?

^ I just realized, we don't have a "big hug" emoticon. This is an outrage!

 

[RandyS]

Re: Would you of helped out?

^ I just realized, we don't have a "big hug" emoticon. This is an outrage!

Why don't you make one?

 

[PKTrekGirl]

Re: Would you of helped out?

I would have helped.

I'd have hated every second of it because I'd feel uncomfortable helping a total stranger to the toilet. But refusing to help another human being, when it just had to be humiliating for them to ask me to begin with....I just couldn't turn them down and in doing so, force them to have to ask yet another total stranger. I mean, clearly, anyone who would ask a total stranger for that kind of help REALLY needs it, and needs it quickly.

I'd have just sucked it up and said to myself "Okay. Five minutes. I can do ANYTHING for five lousy minutes." And with a smile on my face, said, "Sure...what do you need me to do?"

 

[Witterquick]

Re: Would you of helped out?

By the way, why is "have" always replaced with "of" for so many people? Is it a British thing?

Good Lord, no! Well not just British anyway

It's a mistake that's been made for a long time, because people write what they hear and saying "would've" sounds like "would of" so that's what is written.

Ah that makes sense. "Would've" is indeed very close in sound to "would of". I just always read "would of" as it is, with a hard "of", so it sounds aloy like those incomprehensible British folks on TV.

 

[Maestro]

Re: Would you of helped out?

Well, I'm pleased to see that several of you have no clue what the hell you're talking about, and at least one poster who had managed to ram their foot squarely in their mouth had the good sense to walk away.

So here's a little education for you... Just because someone is confined to a wheelchair doesn't mean there's anything wrong with their brain. Try treating them like actual human beings instead of someone who makes you uncomfortable because their mobility is different than yours.

God, there are some fuckin' dumb people around here.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Re: Would you of helped out?

Well, I'm pleased to see that several of you have no clue what the hell you're talking about, and at least one poster who had managed to ram their foot squarely in their mouth had the good sense to walk away.

So here's a little education for you... Just because someone is confined to a wheelchair doesn't mean there's anything wrong with their brain. Try treating them like actual human beings instead of someone who makes you uncomfortable because their mobility is different than yours.

Exactly: whatever answer you give, in a situation like this, should be one that you can deliver with RESPECT to that person. "Yes" is great. I do also think there is a respectful "no," and that's how I hope I'd be understood.

 

[pookha]

Re: Would you of helped out?

I am both appalled and cheered by this thread.

I am appalled that anyone could think "let nature take its course" or to let them suffer. Personally, those who are so uncaring may be less entitled to life than those who struggle much harder to survive on a daily basis.

To those who say they would say, "No," I understand your discomfort in such a situation and appreciate your honesty. My own brother tells me often that he could not take care of our mother the way that I do.

I have said, "Yes" on multiple occasions because I understand the helplessness of someone in that situation. Bedpan duty is a daily chore for me, because my mom is here in a hospital bed... and, yes, I wipe her bottom afterward.

Once, in a movie theater, the teenage kid sitting next to me asked me if I'd help him go to the bathroom. At first, I said, can't someone in your family help? He replied, I don't want my mom taking me to the girls restroom. Please? That is when I noticed both arms were in casts... and felt ashamed for not wanting to help. I thought about what I would feel like in that situation and I did help him.

To those who would like to help, but don't know what to do... ASK. All you have to say is, "What help do you actually need. I'm not sure what to do." Believe it or not, they may say, "just open the door" or "I can't stand up by myself, but once you get me started...", etc. THEN you can decide if you want to do all that person needs. My godson has Cerebral Palsy so I have some idea of what is involved. (He's not shy. He'd not only ask, he'd give you specific directions!) I remember pushing him to learn to self-transfer so he would not be as dependent on others. Now he self-transfers (gets in and out of his wheelchair by himself) easily.

I am cheered to know that there are others who have taken care of family members with disabilities. Maybe we should start a TrekBBS Caregivers Club. THANK YOU for all you do for them!!

Whew, that was a long post for me!

best most common sense post.
especially the part about just ask the person about what kind of help they need.
they know and it might not be as complicated as some think.
or scarey.
this probably isnt the first time they instructed someone new.
a lot of people in wheelchairs are used to instructing family members or aides.

which is why i thought this was a little odd..

]

is[/I] polite society, whether the person is disabled or not. This is a social situation with strong social and cultural boundaries being crossed, whether the person is disabled or not. That's what makes it such a quandary.

Besides my dignity (what's left of it after 50 years) I'm sure the disabled person wouldn't feel too good about sitting there having a total stranger wipe his butt if it came to it, either. The indignity and embarrassment is on both sides.

actually iam sure they have been through this before with "strangers" .. ie the first time they have a new nurse , aide ect,..

the dignity is in how you treat them while helping them.


at least find out what kind of help they need and then as sector said you feel it is beyond you say if they need to be lifted and you feel it isnt safe for you to try..
tell them in a polite manner you cant but if they wish you can try and find someone who can.

Both of my parent's have always said to me, "If I get to the stage where I can't go to the toilet by myself, then I'd rather not be here. I wouldn't ask/want/expect anyone to help me." Then talking about dignity and how being in that state would be an existence and not a life. Then drawing an analogy with animals in the wild and how nature would take its course.

So that's the attitude I have.

this is so.. odd.
really you never had a friend who was in a wheel chair?
i have known several people both friends and relatives.
they had more grace and dignity even when others were helping them then several self mobile people put together.

the inner wisdom, grace and intelligence one has dosnt go away just because your body fails you.

 

[WillsBabe]

Re: Would you of helped out?

I'd help. For someone to need to come up to me and ask for assistance in the bathroom means that their need must be urgent and pressing. I'd feel uncomfortable and nervous but I would do my best to assist another human being.

 

[RJDiogenes]

Re: Would you of helped out?

God, there are some fuckin' dumb people around here.

Okay, you can make your point without going down that road. Let's not get into personal attacks, please.

 

[scotpens]

Re: Would you of helped out?

I'm surprised so many people are very uncomfortable about possibly witnessing/assisting in someone going to the toilet. It's not like you don't do this yourself every day, ie it's not like being squicked out over watching heart surgery.

Really? I sometimes self-stimulate, if you follow me. Would it surprise you to learn that I'd be uncomfortable assisting another dude in doing the same?

There are excellent evolutionary reasons, btw, for us being weirded out by others' waste. It isn't just a personal/cultural thing, it's at least partly innate.

I often wonder how new parents can manage to change their babies’ diapers without throwing up. Frankly, I’m uncomfortable with the sight of my own poo.

Watching heart surgery? No problem.

 

[Jadzia]

Re: Would you of helped out?

this is so.. odd.

There's more details to that than I'm willing to divulge here, but it's an attitude that's influenced by past experience.

really you never had a friend who was in a wheel chair?

I haven't, no.

 

[Maestro]

Re: Would you of helped out?

God, there are some fuckin' dumb people around here.

Okay, you can make your point without going down that road. Let's not get into personal attacks, please.

No, no, really I can't. It offends me greatly anytime someone makes any comment or insinuation that a person who is unable to walk might be less than a person or might have something wrong with their mind. So, yes, RJ, I will go there if I have to.

Very little will push me to this point in civilized discourse. This is where it goes to far.

 

[Cheapjack]

I'd have just let him crap his pants and then called the police and had him arrested for making a mess everywhere.

Then, I'd have made him clean it up, as a punishment.

With his bare hands.

 

[Sector 7]

^ I just realized, we don't have a "big hug" emoticon. This is an outrage!

Why don't you make one?

I would if I had even the slightest clue as to how.

God, there are some fuckin' dumb people around here.

Okay, you can make your point without going down that road. Let's not get into personal attacks, please.

No, no, really I can't. It offends me greatly anytime someone makes any comment or insinuation that a person who is unable to walk might be less than a person or might have something wrong with their mind. So, yes, RJ, I will go there if I have to.

Very little will push me to this point in civilized discourse. This is where it goes to far.

If you cannot express yourself in a civilized manner, how can you possibly hope to change anyone's mind? I am also offended, but realize that being an a$$hole about it won't change their mind. Besides, maybe... just maybe it is because they have never been taught that people different from them are still people.