TBBS and treatment of women

[Nerys Ghemor]

J. Allen--Depends on context. Those particular comments are pretty innocent--but if accompanied by stalking behavior and/or requests for personal information would be creepy.

But stuff like "Nice tits," "Why don't you post a wet T-shirt pic?" or "I'd do THAT," all the way up to descriptions of violence (which I remember seeing here sometimes)...VERY creepy.

 

[Kestra]

An Officer I think if these rules were actually being enforced some might be more mindful and then some might keep doing what they are doing until banned.

That goes back to the "setting an example" point I was making before.

It's a tough pill to swallow, but if you have a position of responsibility, you give up a certain degree of your freedom. Period. That's true if you're a manager IRL or a mod online. I have been both (and will NEVER do the mod thing again), and I can tell you that if you don't set a good example and watch what you say and do, and if you are not consistent in enforcing the rules, then people will not take you seriously when you tell them to do something.

I think the mods do a fantastic job of leading by example. I find it unecessary to have a female mod in Misc when the male mods are just as respectful in this regard.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

I don't care if the mods are male or female as long as they demonstrate responsible leadership. I don't think gender should be a qualification, only the ability to do the job with firmness and fairness (consistent, same treatment of everyone).

 

[An Officer]

An Officer I think if these rules were actually being enforced some might be more mindful...

Precisely. There is zero enforcement right now, even though T'Bonz has encouraged it. And so, many newcomers are not even aware of the issue to begin with, since they have never witnessed action being taken (stickies are apparently invisible to a lot of posters who just scan past them).

If the situation is that a handful of posters are not aware, it is the job of the mods to educate them.

 

[Jax]

The whole I'd hit it stuff I take at face value and women are no different when talking about men BUT I've always noticed...

When talking about characters and Actors in shows/movies, the female characters and actors seem get to far more vented anger aimed at them and some of it is not pretty. There always seem to be an underlying tone to some posts on this board which seems rather dis tasteful to say the least.

 

[Amaris]

J. Allen--Depends on context. Those particular comments are pretty innocent--but if accompanied by stalking behavior and/or requests for personal information would be creepy.

But stuff like "Nice tits," "Why don't you post a wet T-shirt pic?" or "I'd do THAT," all the way up to descriptions of violence (which I remember seeing here sometimes)...VERY creepy.

Well yeah, but that stuff is obvious. The reason I mentioned the statements I did is because they are vague, but can be easily interpreted as creepy. A comment like "Wow. You are smoking hot!" is innocent enough to the person making the statement, but may be over the line to the recipient. It all comes down to perception. That's what makes regulation so much more difficult. The obvious stuff is easy, but what happens when someone is warned for "gorgeous!" or a "" emoticon?

 

[Jetfire]

I have witnessed MODs saying tone down the creepy or that was sexist knock it off...but it is just a friendly warning and some might actually take it and not repeat such behavior but then there are some who continue...and nothing else is said.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

J. Allen--Depends on context. Those particular comments are pretty innocent--but if accompanied by stalking behavior and/or requests for personal information would be creepy.

But stuff like "Nice tits," "Why don't you post a wet T-shirt pic?" or "I'd do THAT," all the way up to descriptions of violence (which I remember seeing here sometimes)...VERY creepy.

Well yeah, but that stuff is obvious. The reason I mentioned the statements I did is because they are vague, but can be easily interpreted as creepy. A comment like "Wow. You are smoking hot!" is innocent enough to the person making the statement, but may be over the line to the recipient. It all comes down to perception. That's what makes regulation so much more difficult. The obvious stuff is easy, but what happens when someone is warned for "gorgeous!" or a "" emoticon?

Unfortunately, I mention the blatant stuff because it has happened.

Simply saying, "Gorgeous!" could even be a non-sexual, aesthetic judgment. And the emote...well, it's not my favorite, but I'd much rather somebody use that and not make a gross or stalkerish comment.

 

[Amaris]

J. Allen--Depends on context. Those particular comments are pretty innocent--but if accompanied by stalking behavior and/or requests for personal information would be creepy.

But stuff like "Nice tits," "Why don't you post a wet T-shirt pic?" or "I'd do THAT," all the way up to descriptions of violence (which I remember seeing here sometimes)...VERY creepy.

Well yeah, but that stuff is obvious. The reason I mentioned the statements I did is because they are vague, but can be easily interpreted as creepy. A comment like "Wow. You are smoking hot!" is innocent enough to the person making the statement, but may be over the line to the recipient. It all comes down to perception. That's what makes regulation so much more difficult. The obvious stuff is easy, but what happens when someone is warned for "gorgeous!" or a "" emoticon?

Unfortunately, I mention the blatant stuff because it has happened.

Simply saying, "Gorgeous!" could even be a non-sexual, aesthetic judgment. And the emote...well, it's not my favorite, but I'd much rather somebody use that and not make a gross or stalkerish comment.

Yeah, I've seen some of the more blatant stuff. It can definitely be way over the top, and like I said, that's the easy stuff. Enforcing more dubious claims of creepiness is difficult, because the person making the statement is surprised that what seemed to be a harmless compliment is warnable, or the recipient of the comment is surprised that a poster could get away with making such a creepy statement.

 

[An Officer]

Well yeah, but that stuff is obvious. The reason I mentioned the statements I did is because they are vague, but can be easily interpreted as creepy. A comment like "Wow. You are smoking hot!" is innocent enough to the person making the statement, but may be over the line to the recipient. It all comes down to perception. That's what makes regulation so much more difficult. The obvious stuff is easy, but what happens when someone is warned for "gorgeous!" or a "" emoticon?

You are missing the point, J.Allen. Nobody wants warnings given out for "vague" and "innocent" compliments. The problem is that glaringly obvious sexism and creepiness are not being dealt with, period.

Clearly, we do not have mods that go after people at the drop of a vague innocent hat. And I doubt very much they are going to turn into a trigger happy Gestapo overnight. That is not one of our problems! Give them some credit. Let us not create problems that do not exist, and likely will not.

 

[Amaris]

You are missing the point, J.Allen. Nobody wants warnings given out for "vague" and "innocent" compliments. The problem is that glaringly obvious sexism and creepiness are not being dealt with, period!

Clearly, we do not have mods that go after people at the drop of a vague innocent hat. And I doubt very much they are going to turn into a trigger happy Gestapo overnight. That is not one of our problems! Give them some credit. Let us not create problems that do not exist, and likely will not.

I'm not missing the point, but I am putting a fine edge on it. The problem sits with intent. You put vague and innocent in quotes, but that gets right to the heart of it. Trying to gauge creepiness is like trying to gauge trolling. Sometimes it's obvious and blatant, and the hammer can be brought down. At other times, it's just an unpopular opinion seen as trolling.

 

[tharpdevenport]

It can be a little over-the-top on some rare occassions, I agree. In fact, it was so bad a year or so ago (I can't recall how long precisely, or the exact details) that T'Bonz had to step in and issue a ruling to lay the fuck off.
In fact, before then we had a member permabanned here (I don't have his user handle handy, but I do somewhere in a parody comic) because -- as I recall -- he was hacking into, and looking into other boards for nude pictures of members. It was sickening.


I think some guys here just do it because of the annonymity of hte internet and they feel they can do more than they could in real life. I wager many of the members here who would, for example, comment on a picture of, say, Ivanka Trump with "I'd hit that", not do so in real life if face-to-face with her. I probably would, but that's becuase I don't have a freakin' chance in Lusty Hell of even shaking her hand.


But as with real life, it is plain & simple: women do not think, approach, or want sex like men. Sure there are some rare instances, but in real life, they just aren't men, and as a result they don't feel the inclination to post and then lust over some shirtless guy, like Kevin Bacon (how in the world can anybody find him sexy???). Men say, "I'd hit that!" because in reality, 90& WOULD HIT THAT if given the chance (I'd say the rest would cower in fear at the site of a real women offering), while women, on the other hand, would not.

To put it into perspective, most of us have heard the "Ask for a hundred girls for sex, at one will say 'Yes'." phrase before, well, for girls: "Ask a hundred men for sex, and you'll have to buy a waiting number dispenser.".

Should we be surprised when guys take their sexuallity from real life and turn it into postings?



But as with real life, you have people who take it too far, and are very, very disgusting in the way they approach and word their replies.

I too am confused at why some women get insulted by men at their sexuallity (if they aren't whores of prostitues, that is). These guys deserve to be on a "Do Not Lay" list.


I personally don't mind a little complementing and even light flirting amongst members, but some here take it over bit over the edge in their comments.
I've never had issue since I've never tried to take anything to some kind of next level with any female posters, and no one (except one member for a short stint) has actually engadged me that way, but after that permabanned member, I decided it's best to make a stance on it -- and I think more members should: no real flirting or hitting on members. It's going to bring you trouble later on, you know it, I know it, the American people know it. Even Al Gore might know it.

I know a few members here have found happiness with each other, a couple married as I recall (after meeting here), but generally I would advise not to do it. There are plenty of girls in real life.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

But as with real life, it is plain & simple: women do not think, approach, or want sex like men. Sure there are some rare instances, but in real life, they just aren't men, and as a result they don't feel the inclination to post and then lust over some shirtless guy, like Kevin Bacon (how in the world can anybody find him sexy???). Men say, "I'd hit that!" because in reality, 90& WOULD HIT THAT if given the chance (I'd say the rest would cower in fear at the site of a real women offering), while women, on the other hand, would not.

Such threads are more isolated--but they do occur. There are threads where women rate the attractiveness of male celebs, and I've seen even certain male Trek actors get treated as sex symbols. The language isn't always as overt, but it's there.

And I can't think those men (despite the bravado many display) necessarily appreciate that, either.

 

[Kestra]

I don't think this discussion needs to be focused around what the mods should or should not do. As someone noted earlier, this is a reflection of our society and not something that can be drastically changed with a few warnings on an internet forum. Moreover, I think the mods have done a fairly decent job with the blatant stuff and implying that they're not doing their jobs isn't going to help. If there are blatant comments that you feel require action, that's what the notify button is for.

I'm not saying that we should all just sit back and accept this type of behaviour when we disagree with it, either. If you see something you disagree with, you should speak up. I know I feel like I'm spoiling everyone's fun when I object to the use of the word "bitch" as well as other terms. It's not a good feeling. But unless we say something, nothing will change. I admit, I was upset at the use of the phrases "pop tart" and "pop tramp" in the Super Bowl Anthem Thread here in Misc. It might seem minor to most of you, but I think any words like "tramp, slut, whore, etc." are completely unnecessary and offensive. Someone dresses provocatively? She's promiscuous? Use those words, instead of loaded slurs.

And it's not just about how men treat women, and men shouldn't be made to feel ashamed because of something that someone else did. Women can be absolutely vicious in their judgments on their own gender and we're guilty of being shallow and crude at times as well. If you need to point this out to us on occasions, please do so.

I think Robert gave us good advice when he told us to reflect. Some words and phrases we use out of habit, not thinking about what we're actually saying. And I would add to his advice, speak up if you feel that someone is being unnecessarily offensive. Not just here on the BBS, but in RL as well. It's not something that will change overnight but hopefully with committed people, we can improve the way we communicate.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

You wouldn't be the first to say so. This very thing has driven many good people from the boards. Nothing much ever gets done about it, because at least 80% of the mods think it's perfectly OK behaviour, some even openly engage in what you describe themselves. MISC has no female mods at the moment, if there were a fairer representation of the board, then things might finally start to change.

I believe there is something of an old boy network at work here, when one mod leaves, he is replaced with an exact replica, usually one of their buddies.

You are right, this behaviour is deeply ingrained, but that's what mods and rules are for... Unfortunately, we do not have enough well-mannered people like yourself notifying. Still, what's the point? It's like notifying the mafia when there has been a robbery.

I do believe that T'Bonz has tried to stamp this out though. "Tried" being the operative word.

Well, it's comforting to know that despite not participating in any of the behaviors described in the OP and repeatedly telling people not to engage in such behavior up to and including warnings, 80% of the four of us mods here not only approve of sexism, but are sexist ourselves. I'm glad we cleared that up. Who needs a posting history when you can just tell us we're sexist and save everyone the time? Thanks!

 

[An Officer]

Trying to gauge creepiness is like trying to gauge trolling. Sometimes it's obvious and blatant, and the hammer can be brought down. At other times, it's just an unpopular opinion seen as trolling.

Trolling is dealt with. Sexism and creepiness currently are not.

Your intent argument is like saying, let's not take action on trolling, because the troller did not mean to troll.

 

[Canadave]

Hey, we have a lot of frustrated, bitter nerds here, and they're venting on these boards in a very anti-social way, because they're once again allowedto do so by the mods.

And so your solution is to muzzle "a lot of frustrated, bitter nerds" so as to spare the sensibilities of the few? Interesting sense of entitlement there.

Uh. How does this make any sense? Black posters are probably a minority on here, as well, but does that mean we can go around posting racist comments because of it? No.

So then why is it okay to perpetuate a culture of disrespect towards female posters?

 

[Amaris]

Trying to gauge creepiness is like trying to gauge trolling. Sometimes it's obvious and blatant, and the hammer can be brought down. At other times, it's just an unpopular opinion seen as trolling.

Trolling is dealt with. Sexism and creepiness currently are not.

Your intent argument is like saying, let's not take action on trolling, because the troller did not mean to troll.

That's not what I'm saying at all. What I'm saying is that it's going to be a pain in the ass to try and regulate "creepiness". I don't think it's something you can effectively regulate. Robert said it earlier, about changing how people think, how they use their words, and that's the best way to go about it, because moderating creepiness is going to be next to impossible without knowing intent, which is why I used the example of trolling. You say trolling is dealt with. How do you know? You assume it is because the most blatant attempts at trolling are dealt with, but the real, creepy, stalkery trolls are very good at flying under the radar. Regulating creepiness is like the TSA regulating terrorism. It's reactive, and mostly theater.

 

[Kestra]

But as with real life, it is plain & simple: women do not think, approach, or want sex like men. Sure there are some rare instances, but in real life, they just aren't men, and as a result they don't feel the inclination to post and then lust over some shirtless guy, like Kevin Bacon (how in the world can anybody find him sexy???). Men say, "I'd hit that!" because in reality, 90& WOULD HIT THAT if given the chance (I'd say the rest would cower in fear at the site of a real women offering), while women, on the other hand, would not.

To put it into perspective, most of us have heard the "Ask for a hundred girls for sex, at one will say 'Yes'." phrase before, well, for girls: "Ask a hundred men for sex, and you'll have to buy a waiting number dispenser.".

Should we be surprised when guys take their sexuallity from real life and turn it into postings?

While there are certainly differences between males and females, it's nothing as significant as you portray. I like sex a lot. I have sex a lot. I don't feel the need to communicate my sexuality constantly. Many women are very sexual creatures and implying otherwise makes us feel like there's something wrong with us. And there isn't.

I feel like we're slipping into territory here where it's about men being so sexual it's like they can't control themselves or something. Let's not go there; it's insulting to everyone involved.

 

[Switch]

Your intent argument is like saying, let's not take action on trolling, because the troller did not mean to troll.

If the troller did not mean to troll then he was not trolling. Trollers by definition have intent to troll.