Star Wars:The Clone Wars S3......so far

[Temis the Vorta]

Yet Lucas is allowing TCW to tell us that the cosmos requires both the Light and Dark Sides, in perpetual balance. If Lucas doesn't want to continue the story beyond ROTJ, fine. But assuming the cosmos continues, the Light and Dark Sides continue, forever. They can't vanish anymore than gravity can vanish.

At the end of ROTJ, the smartest thing Luke can do is to realize he can stop the re-emergence of any more Sith by giving up being a Jedi. And as far as onscreen canon goes, that could be just what he does.

That sorta works as the culmination of the prophecy: Luke gives up his cherished dream to become a Jedi and accepts a life of obscurity. Maybe he even returns to Tatooine, his quest to save the galaxy from ongoing evil finished and the Force balanced. So Lucas is right - there's no more story after that.

Until Leia becomes a Sith, that is.

 

[Set Harth]

Yeah, I see that. I was looking more at the "...getting rid of evil in the universe" part of the quote.

That's what I was referring to for most of the paragraph.

Though I suppose this could be just a rhetorical flourish rather than an actual state of affairs. I would agree that when Vaderkin gives Palps the shaft, the Dark Side continues to exist. Its practitioners, however, do not.

Meanwhile, the generic evil of human (sentient) existence goes on.

But assuming the cosmos continues, the Light and Dark Sides continue, forever. They can't vanish anymore than gravity can vanish.

That's why Lucas doesn't claim that they do. What TCW now contradicts is the dogma of the Force revisionists, not Lucas himself.

He's repeatedly said there is no story he is interested in telling after the credits roll on ROTJ.

I would draw a parallel here with Tolkien. He wasn't that interested in getting into what happened after ROTK and the reign of Aragorn, but he did indicate that there was still some potential story, with cults of Morgoth eventually reemerging.

 

[P0sitr0nic]

Lucas is a hack who got lucky. There I said it. =p

The post ROTJ SW galaxy is the best part of the SW story.

 

[Saul]

So what brings balance to the force? Isn't it destroying the Sith?

It could've been destroying the Jedi. Heck, that would fit the classic model of a prophecy story, in which the characters misinterpret the meaning until it's too late -- the Jedi support Anakin because they believe "the balance of the Force" is something that will serve their interests, but it turns out to mean that he brings balance by killing all the Jedi save two, just as there are only two Sith.

Of course, the other leading theory is that he restores the balance decades later when he overthrows the Emperor. And now this episode is offering yet a third possible meaning. Maybe the prophecy means all of the above. Prophecies are always cryptic, so there's no reason a single prophecy couldn't be phrased so as to have, not just a hidden meaning, but multiple meanings. A Delphic triple entendre, as it were.

I like the first idea, that bringing balance to the force was destroying the Jedi. After watching episode 1 I thought it might go that way. But it seems that the general idea is that destroying Palpatine is what brings balance. Just killing one Sith.

Isn't it destroying the Sith

The Sith are not the dark side.

What brings the force into balance then?

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Lucas is a hack who got lucky.

I believe it. Funny how SW seesaws so widely in quality, from pop culture masterpieces to embarrassing dreck that's subpar even for a hack. The only sensible answer is that the variation stems from the talent of whoever Lucas is collaborating with at any given time.

 

[Christopher]

I like the first idea, that bringing balance to the force was destroying the Jedi. After watching episode 1 I thought it might go that way. But it seems that the general idea is that destroying Palpatine is what brings balance. Just killing one Sith.

Not just one Sith, but a Sith who had successfully consolidated power, become the unchallenged ruler of the entire galaxy, and totally broken the Jedi's power aside from two survivors who went into hiding and might as well have been dead. That sounds pretty imbalanced to me. Anakin/Vader not only destroyed the Emperor, he gave birth to, and then saved, Luke Skywalker, the first of a new breed of Jedi, who then went on to restore the Jedi order.

See, I'm not convinced that "balance to the force" means an equal number of Jedi and Sith, even though I mooted that as a possibility above. I don't think it's a balance when good and evil are equally matched. That's a Western, Manichaean school of thought that doesn't fit well with the Eastern philosophies Lucas used as the basis for the Force and SW spirituality. To me, good is balance and evil is imbalance. Evil is what happens when the healthy balance (whether of the psyche, of law, of political power, or whatever) is disrupted -- it's like an illness, a breakdown of the way things are supposed to work. When the balance is restored, things are healthy and smooth again and less harm is done.

The purpose of the Jedi was to preserve the balance of the universe, to preserve peace and justice and safety. Palpatine disrupted the balance by usurping political power, turning the Jedi's focus toward war, and eventually destroying the Jedi; and there may be some merit to the opinion that the Jedi were already out of balance before, that they'd become insular and hidebound and weren't really serving the balance adequately anymore. That's the sort of thing that can plausibly happen to any institution that's been around long enough, and it could be that the ossification of the Jedi was what allowed crises like the Trade Federation conflict and the rise of Palpatine to occur in the first place.

So that would make it a classic cyclical "rise and fall and rise" narrative -- a society reaches great heights, then grows old and stagnant and must collapse and suffer through a period of decline before it can undergo rebirth and a new order. That's a tradition of both Western and Eastern historical thought. Maybe the idea is that the institutions of the galaxy needed to be purged completely and restarted from scratch in order to be revitalized. Anakin/Vader achieved both halves of the process: he burned away the old order and gave birth to the new order. And thus he was responsible for both of the steps necessary to restore balance to the living beings of the galaxy, and thus to the Force (since the Force is the sum total of the life essence of all living things).

Of course, this hypothesis only works if you disregard the Expanded Universe, since I gather that in the EU post-ROTJ, there's not a new era of peace and balance, but just a repetitive series of more wars. But I think it's compatible with the two film trilogies, and provides a possible answer to how both the destruction of the Jedi and the killing of the Emperor could be parts of the fulfillment of the prophecy.

 

[cbspock]

The last episode of TCW reminded me of the Last Crusade.


-Chris

 

[ProtoAvatar]

See, I'm not convinced that "balance to the force" means an equal number of Jedi and Sith, even though I mooted that as a possibility above. I don't think it's a balance when good and evil are equally matched. That's a Western, Manichaean school of thought that doesn't fit well with the Eastern philosophies Lucas used as the basis for the Force and SW spirituality. To me, good is balance and evil is imbalance. Evil is what happens when the healthy balance (whether of the psyche, of law, of political power, or whatever) is disrupted -- it's like an illness, a breakdown of the way things are supposed to work. When the balance is restored, things are healthy and smooth again and less harm is done.

It's the other way around, Christopher:

"Balance when good and evil are equally matched" fits very well Eastern philosophies (this concept - equilibrium of the opposites (yin/yang, dark/light, good/evil), neither dominant - is fundamental for taoism, for example).

The ideea that "good is balance and evil is imbalance" fits Western thought (christianism, for example) FAR better than it fits eastern philosophies.

 

[Saul]

Not just one Sith, but a Sith who had successfully consolidated power, become the unchallenged ruler of the entire galaxy, and totally broken the Jedi's power aside from two survivors who went into hiding and might as well have been dead. That sounds pretty imbalanced to me.

An imbalanced helped by the one who was supposed to bring balance.
I think consolidation of power doens't match the power of the force. Palpatine outwitted the Jedi through Sith brains more than brawn and almost lost against Yoda in ROTS. Windu had him too. But "the one" changed that situation. Even Anakin could have taken out Palpatine. I don't think he would have succeeded if it wasn't for Anakin. Palpatine played his game very well but in the end the power of the Jedi was destroyed because of Anakin's actions.

Anakin/Vader not only destroyed the Emperor, he gave birth to, and then saved, Luke Skywalker, the first of a new breed of Jedi, who then went on to restore the Jedi order.

Yeah, but that's a bit like saying that the final episode of "Enterprise" 'These are the Voyages' is a valentines to the fans.
Vader wiped out the Jedi and for 20 years helped rule the Galaxy with an iron fist.
Yeah thanks for saving us Vader from years of oppression and by the way frak you for getting us into this mess.

Evil is what happens when the healthy balance (whether of the psyche, of law, of political power, or whatever) is disrupted -- it's like an illness, a breakdown of the way things are supposed to work. When the balance is restored, things are healthy and smooth again and less harm is done.

I don't know. The Jedi of the prequel period do seem ignorant but they weren't the cause of the problems.
If they had allowed themselves to get more involved with stopping Palpatine's policies their downfall would have happened sooner. As they said, they were keepers of the peace.
They certainly misread the prophecy for I doubt they expected to be wiped out for the prophecy to fulfill itself.

If Anakin had allowed Palpatine to be killed by Windu or if Anakin had killed Palpatine then the prophecy would have been fulfilled then.

 

[Christopher]

^Saul, it sounds like you're reacting to fragments of what I posted without considering the entire premise I presented. You seem to have missed the conclusion I drew. Taking pieces of my proposal out of context misses the point. I'm proposing that the prophesied restoration of balance was a whole complex process, not a single act.

 

[DarthPipes]

Lucas is a hack who got lucky.

I believe it. Funny how SW seesaws so widely in quality, from pop culture masterpieces to embarrassing dreck that's subpar even for a hack. The only sensible answer is that the variation stems from the talent of whoever Lucas is collaborating with at any given time.

Yes, he's a hack who got lucky with American Graffitti, then Star Wars, then Indiana Jones. Now he's got this cartoon series. That's a real one-hit wonder...

 

[I Grok Spock]

The post ROTJ SW galaxy is the best part of the SW story.

Spoiler: The post ROTJ SW galaxy

You want to go home and rethink your life.

 

[P0sitr0nic]

The post ROTJ SW galaxy is the best part of the SW story.

Spoiler: The post ROTJ SW galaxy

You want to go home and rethink your life.

prequil drivel.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Lucas is a hack who got lucky.

I believe it. Funny how SW seesaws so widely in quality, from pop culture masterpieces to embarrassing dreck that's subpar even for a hack. The only sensible answer is that the variation stems from the talent of whoever Lucas is collaborating with at any given time.

Yes, he's a hack who got lucky with American Graffitti, then Star Wars, then Indiana Jones. Now he's got this cartoon series. That's a real one-hit wonder...

He had plenty of help. TCW is definitely benefitting from Dave Filoni. What other explanation is there for the vast difference in quality between TCW and the PT, not to mention the significant rewriting that has been going on?

See, I'm not convinced that "balance to the force" means an equal number of Jedi and Sith, even though I mooted that as a possibility above. I don't think it's a balance when good and evil are equally matched. That's a Western, Manichaean school of thought that doesn't fit well with the Eastern philosophies Lucas used as the basis for the Force and SW spirituality. To me, good is balance and evil is imbalance. Evil is what happens when the healthy balance (whether of the psyche, of law, of political power, or whatever) is disrupted -- it's like an illness, a breakdown of the way things are supposed to work. When the balance is restored, things are healthy and smooth again and less harm is done.

It's the other way around, Christopher:

"Balance when good and evil are equally matched" fits very well Eastern philosophies (this concept - equilibrium of the opposites (yin/yang, dark/light, good/evil), neither dominant - is fundamental for taoism, for example).

The ideea that "good is balance and evil is imbalance" fits Western thought (christianism, for example) FAR better than it fits eastern philosophies.

Yup. I'm tired of everything I see and read coming from a Western mindset. The nice thing about Star Wars is that it can be a refreshing change of pace if it sticks to the idea of an Eastern mindset. But it does flip flop a lot.

 

[DarthPipes]

I believe it. Funny how SW seesaws so widely in quality, from pop culture masterpieces to embarrassing dreck that's subpar even for a hack. The only sensible answer is that the variation stems from the talent of whoever Lucas is collaborating with at any given time.

Yes, he's a hack who got lucky with American Graffitti, then Star Wars, then Indiana Jones. Now he's got this cartoon series. That's a real one-hit wonder...

He had plenty of help. TCW is definitely benefitting from Dave Filoni. What other explanation is there for the vast difference in quality between TCW and the PT, not to mention the significant rewriting that has been going on?

See, I'm not convinced that "balance to the force" means an equal number of Jedi and Sith, even though I mooted that as a possibility above. I don't think it's a balance when good and evil are equally matched. That's a Western, Manichaean school of thought that doesn't fit well with the Eastern philosophies Lucas used as the basis for the Force and SW spirituality. To me, good is balance and evil is imbalance. Evil is what happens when the healthy balance (whether of the psyche, of law, of political power, or whatever) is disrupted -- it's like an illness, a breakdown of the way things are supposed to work. When the balance is restored, things are healthy and smooth again and less harm is done.

It's the other way around, Christopher:

"Balance when good and evil are equally matched" fits very well Eastern philosophies (this concept - equilibrium of the opposites (yin/yang, dark/light, good/evil), neither dominant - is fundamental for taoism, for example).

The ideea that "good is balance and evil is imbalance" fits Western thought (christianism, for example) FAR better than it fits eastern philosophies.

Yup. I'm tired of everything I see and read coming from a Western mindset. The nice thing about Star Wars is that it can be a refreshing change of pace if it sticks to the idea of an Eastern mindset. But it does flip flop a lot.

A lot of people have help. That's how a movie gets made.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Other directors have more consistent output than Lucas. It's the extreme inconsistency I find a bit suspicious.

But I don't really are about the process, only the results. If Lucas now realizes he can't handle writing and directing on his own, then good. He just needs to be good at finding people who can.

He should just come up with basic ideas, consult with others to make sure they're not BS (to avoid howlers like "balance" means the Dark Side gets wiped out) and then have teams of talented people handle the expression of those ideas - directing, writing, animation, acting (incl voice acting) etc.

 

[Set Harth]

Isn't it destroying the Sith

The Sith are not the dark side.

What brings the force into balance then?

Destroying the Sith. Around and around we go...

"Balance when good and evil are equally matched" fits very well Eastern philosophies

But not very well the hoped-for outcome of a Jedi prophecy, or the inevitable happy ending to a saga. Which is due to the fact that it has nothing to do with the balance of the Force ( except for the fact that the word "balance" appears in each phrase ).

He should just come up with basic ideas, consult with others to make sure they're not BS (to avoid howlers like "balance" means the Dark Side gets wiped out)

That's still not Lucas' mistake no matter how many times you allege that it is. That's why no quote from Lucas or the PT has surfaced which makes any such claim, because they don't exist. It's just debunked fan revisionism being blamed on Lucas.

 

[Christopher]

It's the other way around, Christopher:

"Balance when good and evil are equally matched" fits very well Eastern philosophies (this concept - equilibrium of the opposites (yin/yang, dark/light, good/evil), neither dominant - is fundamental for taoism, for example).

Sorry, you're wrong. Eastern philosophy is about a balance of opposite forces, yes, but they don't define those forces as good and evil. That's a Western concept that Westerners trying to interpret Eastern philosophy often impose on it. The yin and yang, the light and dark, whatever, both have equal potential to do good or ill. It's when those opposing forces are in balance that things are good and right, and it's when they're out of balance that bad things happen (for instance, bad feng shui, an environment out of balance, can allow harmful forces free rein).

 

[Temis the Vorta]

I'm curious about one thing: are good and evil being in balance actually part of taoism? Does that philosophy actually hold that you shouldn't wipe out evil from the face of the earth if it were theoretically possible to do so?

Or does evil emerge only from the imbalance of other forces in the universe? For instance, destruction isn't evil per se, because it can clear a path for growth that wouldn't happen otherwise. If there's no creation to balance destruction, only then is destruction bad.

Which means that the Dark Side is not itself evil. It becomes evil if it's the only game in town, but you could say the same about the Light Side.

Which further means that the Sith are evil not because they follow the Dark Side but because they want to wipe out the Light Side - seeking imbalance makes them evil. And if the Jedi wanted to wipe out the Dark Side, which it seems they do, then they are just as evil as the Sith.

If that was Anakin's rationale for joining the Sith - it's no worse than being a Jedi, and the only way to be "good" is to seek balance - then I can actually see his point! He was the only person, Sith or Jedi, who was taking proactive steps to right the terrible imbalance of too many Jedi and not enough Sith that was causing havoc in the galaxy!

 

[Set Harth]

And if the Jedi wanted to wipe out the Dark Side, which it seems they do, then they are just as evil as the Sith.

The Jedi do not want to "wipe out the dark side". That is nothing more than a fan myth which you're promoting for some reason. It is not actually true. Furthermore, the Jedi are not "just as evil as the Sith". That would imply a serious divergence from the message of the saga and the characterization of the Jedi.

He was the only person, Sith or Jedi, who was taking proactive steps to right the terrible imbalance of too many Jedi and not enough Sith that was causing havoc in the galaxy!

The Sith are the ones who cause havoc in the galaxy. The Jedi don't. The balance of the Force is not a balance in the numbers of Jedi and Sith. If it were, the Jedi would not look forward to the Chosen One bringing balance, and the balance would not be achieved at a time when there are zero Sith and a nonzero number of Jedi. That's why it's called balance of the Force. You can't take "Force" out of the phrase and replace it with something else while insisting that the meaning must stay the same.