Star Wars:The Clone Wars S3......so far

[Temis the Vorta]

Wow, loved this week's episode! Fascinating look at an alien culture that has had enough thought put into it that it has coherent internal logic (which is where so many "exotic" alien cultures fall on their faces). The genders are apparently segregated for this species but unlike, say, "Spock's Brain," the result is sensible in that I could envision this culture existing indefinitely.

Each gender-based tribe has bonds of intense loyalty among them, which goes a long ways towards explaining Ventress' mindset. Maybe she simply doesn't understand that outsiders don't share her sense of absolute loyalty towards their friends, which clarifies why she didn't keep the likelihood in the back of her mind that Dooku might betray her one day, and be constantly on the lookout for that betrayal.

How could any darksider be naive enough to implicitly trust another? At the very least, she shouldn't be surprised at Dooku's actions, and shouldn't act so hurt. It must be an ongoing shock to her, to have to deal with all the other species of the galaxy, who must seem like backstabbing traitors to her. Outside of Dathomir, the galaxy must seem like a cruelly friendless realm of eternal selfishness and loyalties built on sand.

The gender segregation also explains the weird manner Ventress had in dealing with males (especially Obi-Wan, he's definitely a "favorite" ), a rather sickening combination of seductiveness and hostility. Maybe this is also normal for her species? There has to be some way the Dathomirians reproduce, probably involving a ceremonial process that might look a bit, errr, strange to outsiders.

It's great that this series can create episodes so interesting based on ancillary characters. They could keep going indefinitely along these lines.

I liked it, however I was very disappointed Savage was brainwashed into being darksided.

I'm confused on this point. Are the Nightsisters all Force users (a coven of all the female Force users on their world)? Are they "dark side" or neutral? They seem to have adopted a neutral stance toward both Jedi and Sith. Are their magical abilities all derived from the Force? Can other Jedi or Sith do what they did to Savage, or is that an ability unique to their coven? Is Savage also Force sensitive, and do the male portion of their species also have a separate group Force users, the warriors who were selected for the test?

If Savage was really Force sensitive and was brainwashed into darkside-ism, then maybe brainwashing is a part of the process, but in most cases, only a minor part.

I'm hoping that one purpose of this storyline is to finally shed some light on what exactly the process is, by which someone becomes a darksider, and whether the process can vary by individual. Since brainwashing is too damn easy, there should be another shoe dropping - if you're darksided by brainwashing, it's easier for you to get out from its clutches when and if you regain your senses. Making the conscious and willful choice to fall to the dark side makes it a lot harder to ever reverse the process.

I wonder if Sidious's demand to get rid of Asajj convinced Dooku that a change in leadership was in order?

That's a reasonable and interesting interpretation, I think. In a way, it humanizes Dooku, showing that he resents the order to eliminate Ventress, and it makes it kind of tragic that Ventress blames Dooku when she should really blame Palpatine/Sidious.

Yeah, but she's trapped by her culture. She never saw Sidious as an ally so she doesn't feel personally vengeful because of his betrayal, and turns all her wrath on Dooku. Ironic.

 

[Set Harth]

Are they "dark side" or neutral?

There is no "neutral". You're either a darksider or you aren't.

If Savage was really Force sensitive and was brainwashed into darkside-ism, then maybe brainwashing is a part of the process, but in most cases, only a minor part.

Well, at least we can all agree that brainwashing someone into the dark side is a terrible story and something the infinitely superior TCW would never, ever do.

 

[fett51]

I'm confused on this point. Are the Nightsisters all Force users (a coven of all the female Force users on their world)? Are they "dark side" or neutral? They seem to have adopted a neutral stance toward both Jedi and Sith. Are their magical abilities all derived from the Force? Can other Jedi or Sith do what they did to Savage, or is that an ability unique to their coven? Is Savage also Force sensitive, and do the male portion of their species also have a separate group Force users, the warriors who were selected for the test?

The Nightsisters are darksided, just outside the usual Jedi/Sith duality. Some of what they do is force use, the telekinesis, healing and jumps for example. What their other abilities are they haven't elaborated on so far as I know. My view right now is that it's esoteric force use zazzed up with a lot of native superstition.

I think the trial the Zabraks undertook in the dark was supposed to demonstrate force ability, the ability to sense an opponent anyway. I think what the nightsisters did to Savage is basically what Anakin/Obi-wan/Mace were afraid of doing to Cad Bane back in S2: uber-powerful mind trick that wiped his existing personality. I agree we'll likely be seeing him break through the brainwashing at some point in the future, and probably try to take revenge on Ventress for what she made him do to his brother.

 

[Admiral_Young]

I find the Asaj/Dooku/Sidious thing rather interesting. In the past on the show (at least in the movie) Darth Sidious has barely acknowledged her. Filoni explained in the audio commentary that this is because there would be no need on his part to do this, she's not worth his attention. The fact that he has ordered Dooku to get rid of her speaks of her growing influence and power and the fact that Sidious maybe is realizing for the first time the threat to the rule of two she could pose.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

What makes the Nightsisters "dark side"? They don't seem evil to me. They have their own culture and stick to it, wisely avoiding outside entanglements, and from what I can see, their society is healthy and functional. Going after Dooku for betraying Ventress isn't a sign of "evil" - the reverse, really.

They aren't selfish like the Sith. Their allegiances seem genuine. They didn't ask Ventress "what's in it for us, babe?" when she showed up at their doorstep. They considered her one of their coven, and took on her quest as their own, even though they hadn't seen her in years and she could have been lying about what Dooku did, her motives, everything really. She could have been leading them all into a trap. They struck me as very trusting, as though one of their own kin was incapable of betrayal (and maybe that's the case for their species).

They seemed to think they "owed her" for having been the sacrificial lamb (?) to keep outsiders away. (And what exactly was all that about? Did the Jedi actually demand she be turned over to them as a small child?)

The Nightsisters seem more like the Jedi than the Sith. They've established an organizational culture that allows them to function as a society of Force-users without trying to kill each other. Maybe the Force itself makes people power-mad and selfish (nothing to do with good or evil sides, the Force is just all one continuous thing) and if a group of Force users fail to create an elaborate culture of stringent rules, they will invariably end up like the Sith. Mere mortals can't be trusted with power like that unless they voluntarily bind themselves with lots of rules.

Are there Nightbrothers (Maul, Savage, etc) who are also Force users? They also seem to have a culture of unquestioning loyalty towards each other or at the very least, they haven't shown any signs of being competitive and hostile the way Sith are. It's significant that the Nightsisters had to screw with Savage's mind to make him "evil" enough to pass as a Sith. At first I thought "Savage Oppress" was a silly name; now I just think it's unfair. He's not a bad guy at all.

 

[DarthPipes]

How could any darksider be naive enough to implicitly trust another? At the very least, she shouldn't be surprised at Dooku's actions, and shouldn't act so hurt. It must be an ongoing shock to her, to have to deal with all the other species of the galaxy, who must seem like backstabbing traitors to her. Outside of Dathomir, the galaxy must seem like a cruelly friendless realm of eternal selfishness and loyalties built on sand.

Like Dooku being shocked when Palpatine tells Anakin to kill him. In this episode we see he is also plotting to overthrow Palpatine. Anakin/Vader was also looking to overthrow Palpatine. It's the way of the Sith. One holds the power and the other craves it.

 

[fett51]

The Nightsisters seem more like the Jedi than the Sith. They've established an organizational culture that allows them to function as a society of Force-users without trying to kill each other.

They also have zero problem brainwashing or enslaving people not their own and apparently believe very passionately in revenge, which itself boils down to inflicting pain or death for the sake of one's feelings. They may be a cut above the Sith, but they're far off being the Jedi in terms of how they use their power. All I really give them credit for is working out they're more powerful as a group.

Are there Nightbrothers (Maul, Savage, etc) who are also Force users? They also seem to have a culture of unquestioning loyalty towards each other or at the very least, they haven't shown any signs of being competitive and hostile the way Sith are.

Savage didn't seem to have any force training initially, so I'd guess any force sensitive men are unaware of their talents. Nightsisters probably keep it that way so they don't get uppity.

 

[JD]

Did we ever see men from Dathomir in the books/comics? I know that really doesn't matter for the show, I was just curious because the only characters I can think that are from Dathomir are women.

 

[Set Harth]

What makes the Nightsisters "dark side"?

Using the dark side of the Force.

Of course, given that we've seen a Ryloth without day and night sides and a Dathomir without rancors, maybe these Nightsisters aren't really Nightsisters?

They may be a cut above the Sith, but they're far off being the Jedi in terms of how they use their power. All I really give them credit for is working out they're more powerful as a group.

In other words, they're like the Brotherhood: weak Sith.

Maybe the Force itself makes people power-mad and selfish (nothing to do with good or evil sides, the Force is just all one continuous thing)

According to the scenario sketched by the films, the dark side is the inherently corruptive part. So this issue does have something to do with the light and dark sides. The basic idea that the Jedi should use the Force in moderation is not itself an elaborate system and does not contradict the duality of the Force.

 

[Saul]

I thought Darth Maul looked that way because they were tatoos. Interesting episode. I like that we get away from the Jedi and Clones. Savage isn't so interesting in his beefed up dumbed down form.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

They also have zero problem brainwashing or enslaving people not their own and apparently believe very passionately in revenge, which itself boils down to inflicting pain or death for the sake of one's feelings. They may be a cut above the Sith, but they're far off being the Jedi in terms of how they use their power. All I really give them credit for is working out they're more powerful as a group.

The Jedi tortured Cad Bane and turned a blind eye to Anakin's shenanagins (haw that rhymes ) in beating up that guy for info about Ahsoka, so it's not like they're so holy and pure.

The Nightsisters do demonstrate how much worse the Sith would be if they would stop being so dysfunctional. Their tendency to turn on each other just inhibits their power. If only two of them can wipe out the Jedi, even with that nasty culture of mistrust, imagine how much more effective they'd be with a Nightsister culture. They'd rule the galaxy forever!

The Nightsisters' ambiguous moral nature is more evidence for the idea that the "Light" and "Dark" sides of the Force are just ideas people have about the Force, which is actually one continuous, undifferentiated spectrum of energy that can be used for good or evil or something inbetween.

If you do something good with the Force, that's called the Light side. If you do something bad with it, that's called the Dark side. Any Force user is capable of using the Force for good or evil. But to slap labels on people - Jedi, Sith, etc - is a cultural construct, and has obvious political uses.

Which raises an interesting notion about Anakin's "fall" - has he been told that "falling to the Dark Side" is some horrible, permanent thing that you can never extract yourself from? It certainly would be to the Jedi's advantage to promulgate that idea, to avoid their guys committing war crimes when they find it convenient or otherwise running amok.

But in fact, "falling" doesn't actually happen - it's a myth. Anakin could have killed the younglings, shrugged, turned around and killed Sidious, taken over, and reinstated the Republic and Jedi Order (with new youngling recruits) and oversaw a rebirth of democracy and justice in the galaxy. And then he could do more ruthless and evil things in the future when it seemed convenient, afterwards returning to being "good." He has free will to do as he pleases, and he doesn't have to accept the label of Jedi or Sith.

Maybe Anakin brainwashed himself into becoming Vader, simply because he expected it. He had free will to do as he pleased all those years, but because he could rationalize his actions only if he tells himself "I am now evil," that's exactly what he did. What a tragedy, someone who has free will and brainwashes himself into slavery.

Of course all of this is in total violation of what makes Star Wars unique - the notion that the Dark and Light sides of the Force do mean something more than just the social and political uses that people make of those terms. What I've described is too psychologically based and would be more appropriate to Star Trek. Still, it's fun to think about.

 

[fett51]

The Jedi tortured Cad Bane and turned a blind eye to Anakin's shenanagins (haw that rhymes ) in beating up that guy for info about Ahsoka, so it's not like they're so holy and pure.

Not saying they are pure, just that they're the best group when it comes to force users. For the record, we can't be sure if the Council ever found out what Anakin did, he seemed to persuade them to drop it. That Jedi at large run around mind-tricking people is one of those things I'd ask Lucas about if I had the opportunity. I used to think they only did it to avert having to kill someone, but using it simply because it's a faster way to get information or similar reminds me of Yoda cautioning Luke against taking the quick and easy path in ESB.

The Nightsisters do demonstrate how much worse the Sith would be if they would stop being so dysfunctional. Their tendency to turn on each other just inhibits their power. If only two of them can wipe out the Jedi, even with that nasty culture of mistrust, imagine how much more effective they'd be with a Nightsister culture. They'd rule the galaxy forever!

Yes and no, the dysfunction there is actually part of why they are so powerful individually. The notion with the Sith is that they have to be in conflict constantly so they have to pursue greater power constantly just to avoid dying. The ultimate dark side force would have to be constantly pursuing greater individual power but willing to share power to accomplish their goals. The old Sith got close to that several times in the Old Republic period and curbstomped the Jedi and the Republic, but then the greatest threat to their individual power was other Sith. The Nightsisters don't seem to be that concerned with individual power, which enables them to coexist, but they are weaker individually as a result, two of them plus Ventress didn't even get close to taking Dooku.

But in fact, "falling" doesn't actually happen - it's a myth. Anakin could have killed the younglings, shrugged, turned around and killed Sidious, taken over, and reinstated the Republic and Jedi Order (with new youngling recruits) and oversaw a rebirth of democracy and justice in the galaxy.

Well, Anakin's pre-lava bath plan in RotS was to kill Palps and take over with Padme. He doesn't seem to believe much in democracy though. As for the notion of falling, my POV is that it's just a dramatic way of saying they stop caring about anyone other than themselves. There are certainly varying degrees to selfishness, but to reach a point of pure selfishness is to break - what is there to bring a person back from that?

 

[Temis the Vorta]

The notion with the Sith is that they have to be in conflict constantly so they have to pursue greater power constantly just to avoid dying.

That's interesting - is that in the novels? I've never heard about that before. Are Sith in danger of dying simply because they aren't gaining power constantly, and is that the price of the Dark Side's power.

Well, Anakin's pre-lava bath plan in RotS was to kill Palps and take over with Padme.

That plan was so absurd that I chalked it up to bad writing. There's no way a sensible person who even vaguely knows Padme would think she'd go along with that nonsense. Which gets back to the question: is "falling to the Dark Side" insanity, and if so, how can Sith function effectively if they've simply lost touch with reality (leaving aside how cheap it is to write characters as "insane" - it's like writing them to be stupid, it's too easy).

There are certainly varying degrees to selfishness, but to reach a point of pure selfishness is to break - what is there to bring a person back from that?

Selfishness is just a personality flaw. If you're a selfish person, you can always change. If you do something selfish, you can repent. Heck, murderers repent in the real world. There's nothing so awful that you can't just decide to turn your life around, even if it means spending your whole life doing nothing but good works to compensate for your wicked past.

There's no point of no return, if we're talking about normal human psychology (and not someone who is simply insane and has lost touch with reality). But Star Wars seems to be telling us that something other than that is going on, something that trumps the normal rules of psychology and free will, and is not "madness" as we understand it.

It's that thing, whatever it is, that makes Star Wars different from every other space opera series I can think of. I'd like to know more about what that thing is. For instance, is there such a thing as "pure selfishness" that no mortal mind can ever attain, but the Dark Side can somehow offer it or impose it on you? It strips away all those pesky doubts and inhibitions, allowing total freedom of action (and therefore total power).

If so, it's an ironic counterpart to the Jedi notion of stripping away attachments, which also offers greater power (in the form of self-control) by removing emotional ties that might compel you to do certain things, like seek revenge, that you shouldn't be wasting your time on (avenging a loved one's death won't change anything) or might get you into trouble (attacking an enemy hastily rather than biding your time).

Both the Jedi and Sith seek greater power by using the Force to strip away inconvenient aspects of their humanity that make them less effective in wielding power. They just have different strategies. The Sith are just going the Jedi one better - they give up attachments (or at least they should, attachments get them into trouble as much as the Jedi) plus they also give up all inhibitions about behaving selfishly. What else is there left of humanity after that? Nothing, I guess.

 

[JD]

They also have zero problem brainwashing or enslaving people not their own and apparently believe very passionately in revenge, which itself boils down to inflicting pain or death for the sake of one's feelings. They may be a cut above the Sith, but they're far off being the Jedi in terms of how they use their power. All I really give them credit for is working out they're more powerful as a group.

The Jedi tortured Cad Bane and turned a blind eye to Anakin's shenanagins (haw that rhymes ) in beating up that guy for info about Ahsoka, so it's not like they're so holy and pure.

The Nightsisters do demonstrate how much worse the Sith would be if they would stop being so dysfunctional. Their tendency to turn on each other just inhibits their power. If only two of them can wipe out the Jedi, even with that nasty culture of mistrust, imagine how much more effective they'd be with a Nightsister culture. They'd rule the galaxy forever!

If you go back to the Old Republic stuff, the Sith had an entire Empire that came very close to ruling the galaxy several times.

The Nightsisters' ambiguous moral nature is more evidence for the idea that the "Light" and "Dark" sides of the Force are just ideas people have about the Force, which is actually one continuous, undifferentiated spectrum of energy that can be used for good or evil or something inbetween.

If you do something good with the Force, that's called the Light side. If you do something bad with it, that's called the Dark side. Any Force user is capable of using the Force for good or evil. But to slap labels on people - Jedi, Sith, etc - is a cultural construct, and has obvious political uses.

Which raises an interesting notion about Anakin's "fall" - has he been told that "falling to the Dark Side" is some horrible, permanent thing that you can never extract yourself from? It certainly would be to the Jedi's advantage to promulgate that idea, to avoid their guys committing war crimes when they find it convenient or otherwise running amok.

But in fact, "falling" doesn't actually happen - it's a myth. Anakin could have killed the younglings, shrugged, turned around and killed Sidious, taken over, and reinstated the Republic and Jedi Order (with new youngling recruits) and oversaw a rebirth of democracy and justice in the galaxy. And then he could do more ruthless and evil things in the future when it seemed convenient, afterwards returning to being "good." He has free will to do as he pleases, and he doesn't have to accept the label of Jedi or Sith.

Maybe Anakin brainwashed himself into becoming Vader, simply because he expected it. He had free will to do as he pleased all those years, but because he could rationalize his actions only if he tells himself "I am now evil," that's exactly what he did. What a tragedy, someone who has free will and brainwashes himself into slavery.

Of course all of this is in total violation of what makes Star Wars unique - the notion that the Dark and Light sides of the Force do mean something more than just the social and political uses that people make of those terms. What I've described is too psychologically based and would be more appropriate to Star Trek. Still, it's fun to think about.

If you are interested in these issues you need to check out the New Jedi Order books, and some of the stuff that comes after them. They get into alot of that stuff in those books.

 

[fett51]

That's interesting - is that in the novels? I've never heard about that before. Are Sith in danger of dying simply because they aren't gaining power constantly, and is that the price of the Dark Side's power.

What I was thinking of specifically came out of the two Knights of the Old Republic games, looking over wook it seems those pretty much defined mainline Sith philosophy. Dying isn't the price of the dark side's power per se, it's what happens to them if they are weak. May as well trot out the Sith Code:

Peace is a lie. There is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall set me free.

The latter lines illustrate the central role conflict (and winning) play in the Sith philosophy, it is both how the Sith test their power, and how they free themselves from weaknesses and restrictions, by constantly forcing themselves to be at their best. To their view, something that is stagnant and unchallenged will grow weak with time.

Selfishness is just a personality flaw. If you're a selfish person, you can always change. If you do something selfish, you can repent. Heck, murderers repent in the real world. There's nothing so awful that you can't just decide to turn your life around, even if it means spending your whole life doing nothing but good works to compensate for your wicked past.

It's not that they can't change, it's why would they want to? The obvious example is Vader, he didn't care that he was torturing and murdering left right and center, but he did care when it happened to his son. If he had no son, why would he change back? He gets anything he wants this way. That's why it's a point of no return (and why the Jedi absolute stance on attachments is wrong).

Both the Jedi and Sith seek greater power by using the Force to strip away inconvenient aspects of their humanity that make them less effective in wielding power. They just have different strategies. The Sith are just going the Jedi one better - they give up attachments (or at least they should, attachments get them into trouble as much as the Jedi) plus they also give up all inhibitions about behaving selfishly. What else is there left of humanity after that? Nothing, I guess.

Couple things here, first the Jedi deliberately limit the power they can get and abilities they use. Yoda for example demonstrated he's perfectly capable of blocking or reflecting force lightning, but he never, ever uses it. Also the Sith aren't required to give up their attachment to themselves.

 

[Mach5]

That plan was so absurd that I chalked it up to bad writing. There's no way a sensible person who even vaguely knows Padme would think she'd go along with that nonsense. Which gets back to the question: is "falling to the Dark Side" insanity, and if so, how can Sith function effectively if they've simply lost touch with reality (leaving aside how cheap it is to write characters as "insane" - it's like writing them to be stupid, it's too easy).

This was just after Anakin massacred the younglings and the separatist leaders. He was probably still overwhelmed by powers no Jedi should ever dig into.

I mean, did you see the look in his eyes? He looked completely possessed, intoxicated by finally giving in to dark temptations. It was one of those rare moments when Christensen actually delivered, IMO.

 

[exodus]

I thought Darth Maul looked that way because they were tatoos.

It might still be. They might be a race that's divided into tribes and their tribe tattoos themselves. Isn't Eath Koth part of that same race? He's got no facial markings like that.

 

[O'Dib]

[The Nightsisters] may be a cut above the Sith, but they're far off being the Jedi in terms of how they use their power. All I really give them credit for is working out they're more powerful as a group.

I read a comic book about the establishment of the rule of two. Seems like the Sith succumb to the inverse ninja rule, they're easily dispatchable in large groups, but formidable as lone warriors. And supposedly there's reasoning behind that, like there is a limited amount of power at the disposal of all the dark side users in the Galaxy, which is thus rendered ineffective if spread too thin. And some genius figured out, well I'll be an uber badass if I'm the only dark lord, with just one apprentice who will end me when I'm old/weak/foolish enough to let it happen, thus carrying on my untarnished legacy. Which begs the question, why has no one wiped out the Nighsisters yet?

 

[Mach5]

I read a comic book about the establishment of the rule of two. Seems like the Sith succumb to the inverse ninja rule, they're easily dispatchable in large groups, but formidable as lone warriors. And supposedly there's reasoning behind that, like there is a limited amount of power at the disposal of all the dark side users in the Galaxy, which is thus rendered ineffective if spread too thin.

Wow, that is seriously stupid.

I'm not big on EU (never read a single book or a comic, actually), and I always thought the reasoning behind the rule of two was simple - the Sith are selfish, power hungry creatures, prone to treachery and deceit. No Sith can ever really trust another so they can't effectively operate in large groups (lots of backstabbing and distrust). That's why there can only be one who pulls the strings, and one to learn from him and pass the knowledge.

 

[fett51]

I read a comic book about the establishment of the rule of two. Seems like the Sith succumb to the inverse ninja rule, they're easily dispatchable in large groups, but formidable as lone warriors. And supposedly there's reasoning behind that, like there is a limited amount of power at the disposal of all the dark side users in the Galaxy, which is thus rendered ineffective if spread too thin. And some genius figured out, well I'll be an uber badass if I'm the only dark lord, with just one apprentice who will end me when I'm old/weak/foolish enough to let it happen, thus carrying on my untarnished legacy. Which begs the question, why has no one wiped out the Nighsisters yet?

Strange, I read the Bane novels and there was nothing like that in them, it was about preventing the infighting from consuming the Sith again. Guess DH needs to be kept on a shorter leash.

I'd guess the nightsisters are allowed because they stay on their own planet and any Jedi task force going to root them out would be up to its neck in its own blood. Palps probably keeps them around to recruit from.