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Star Wars:The Clone Wars S3......so far

Loved the depth they added to Ventress.
Weeeelll...they added that depth with an eyedropper...but hey, it's a step in the right direction! :bolian:
Well, I didn't specify exactly how much depth was added. Just that I loved what was done. ;)

Relatively speaking, this was a more than a little depth for the Star Wars brand -- though, as you point out, when compared to a truly in-depth series like DS9 (or The Wire), it's not a whole lot. But given what Clone Wars has had to work with -- its dictated starting and ending points -- I'm more than happy with this kind of exploration. More would be better, but this is a nice development so far.
 
My mind was racing during this episode. All the exciting possibilities. This series is going to thrive in re-runs for years to come.
 
By the way, there was an eerie and somewhat unintelligible voice over just as Anakin, Obi-Wan and Asajj were leaving the command ship. Sounded like "Sith" but it also sounded like vocals being spoken backwards.

As for the BSG references, the kamikaze run of the vulture droid into the hangar bay was reminiscent of a Cylon raider doing something similar in the original BSG miniseries.
 
What I love is the sneaky way they assemble elements over time, just a little bit here and a little bit there, until the bigger picture emerges. So it's easy to be overly critical of a given episode.

Like with the "boring" political episodes earlier this season, which established that the Republic did have a problem with corruption (showing us, not just talking about it), which was necessary setup for the new notion of Separatists with legitimate grievances, which makes the main characters look less stupid for not being suspicious of a war that has no apparent cause (it does have a natural cause, now) and possibly is going other interesting places in the future.

For instance: why wouldn't Anakin see the same corruption problem the Seppys did, yet come up with a different "solution": an Empire that can crush the corrupt elements far better than a weak and divided Republic? And presto, the political side of Anakin's fall suddenly makes sense. He doesn't even need to be apolitical and naive, which has been my assumption so far, and the story can still work just fine.

He can have intelligently reasoned and "legitimate" political viewpoints that make him distrustful of democracy. In his experience, democracy simply doesn't work. We can't extrapolate our own viewpoints to him, or his situation. There's no law that says that all sci fi has to be some kind of metaphor for modern-day Earth.

So what might be the purpose of the Nightsisters arc? Well, we've established that Sith aren't all bad. Dooku and Ventress had a loyal, affectionate relationship. Ventress probably wouldn't be so angry if she weren't feeling massively betrayed by someone she trusted implicitly. She seems to be intelligent, yet it never once crossed her mind that Sidious might ferret out her secret apprenticeship and demand that Dooku kill her, and that Dooku might comply. If she thought about it at all, she probably assumed that that would be the trigger for her and Dooku to usurp Sidious.

That shows more complexity for the Sith that pushes them incrementally out of cardboard-villain status, which is going to be vital for Anakin's story. He's not a cardboard character now, so it's not reasonable that he can become one. If we see the complexity in any Sith character, we can extrapolate that to Anakin.

I'd like more details about Ventress' backstory. Dooku offered to train her in the Dark Side, but why did she accept? What is the difference between a Jedi who accepts something like that, and one who doesn't? The details will be different for everyone, but there has to be some commonalities, and their common history of being torn from their loving family can't be it, because that happens to all of them. Does it simply come down to personality quirks that are like cracks in the facade that let the "darkness" in, and after that, it's a snowball effect?
 
As for the BSG references, the kamikaze run of the vulture droid into the hangar bay was reminiscent of a Cylon raider doing something similar in the original BSG miniseries.

Do you mean the pilot miniseries for the Moore version or the pilot movie for the original 1978 series, aka "Saga for a Star World"? I seem to recall such a shot in "Saga," and there was definitely a kamikaze Raider attack on Galactica's landing bay in "Fire in Space," probably using the same stock footage. But "Saga" was a movie subsequently rerun in three parts, not a miniseries, so I'm confused what you mean.
 
It's too bad they didn't just adapt "Dark Rendezvous", the Yoda / Dooku novel. Not only was it hugely entertaining it was a really great character piece for Yoda AND Dooku. This was back in the early portrayals of Dooku where it looked like he wasn't all evil and could be secretly good but corrupted and capable of redemption.

I did like the silent moment where Dooku regretted turning on Ventress in this episode.
 
"Shatterpoint" was the best artistically but "Dark Rendezvous" was definitely the most entertaining!
 
What is the difference between a Jedi who accepts something like that, and one who doesn't?

One is a Jedi, the other is an ex-Jedi.

TCW's biggest remaining weakness (after having solved the problems of Anakin's characterization and the underdeveloped/baffling political landscape)

The political landscape wasn't baffling until TCW "developed" it that way.

yet come up with a different "solution": an Empire that can crush the corrupt elements far better than a weak and divided Republic? And presto, the political side of Anakin's fall suddenly makes sense.

Thanks to AOTC. Maybe it was "sudden" in 2002. But you know what they say, if it's not bobblehead Anakin, it doesn't, doesn't count.

the lack of development of the Good vs Evil fight which is the core of all Star Wars and something I think Lucas, the good little liberal, might be a bit scared of

Lucas "might be a bit scared" of "the core of all Star Wars"? See any possible contradiction there? Are we now feverishly imagining Lucas to have once been a "fearless conservative" before becoming a "scared liberal"?

And they also defy the idea of simplistic good or evil. They don't seem nice, necessarily, but they do have a lot of loyalty towards each other

And: scene.:rommie:
 
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As for the BSG references, the kamikaze run of the vulture droid into the hangar bay was reminiscent of a Cylon raider doing something similar in the original BSG miniseries.

Do you mean the pilot miniseries for the Moore version or the pilot movie for the original 1978 series, aka "Saga for a Star World"? I seem to recall such a shot in "Saga," and there was definitely a kamikaze Raider attack on Galactica's landing bay in "Fire in Space," probably using the same stock footage. But "Saga" was a movie subsequently rerun in three parts, not a miniseries, so I'm confused what you mean.
Yeah, I was referring to "Saga For A Star World." I remember seeing it as a three-parter and the notion of calling it a "miniseries" has forever been stuck in my head, even though I own the DVD and have watched "Saga" as a film countless times. :wtf:

By the way, the voice work for Mother Talzin was very interesting. Sounded like they were giving her the same guttural tones that Sidious had just after the confrontation with Mace Windu in ROTS. Dunno if it was meant as anything more than a kind of homage, but I do wonder what, if any, significance it has to the Dark Side.
 
^^^She wrote Jedi Crash as well? Blimey. That and this are probably two of my favorite episodes of the series. Both had the right mix of action and character development. We shall watch her future with great interest.... :p
 
By the way, the voice work for Mother Talzin was very interesting. Sounded like they were giving her the same guttural tones that Sidious had just after the confrontation with Mace Windu in ROTS. Dunno if it was meant as anything more than a kind of homage, but I do wonder what, if any, significance it has to the Dark Side.

It sort of reminded me of the Bene Gesserit "voice" as depicted in David Lynch's Dune, not to mention use of "The Water of Life."

Between Battlestar Galactica and Dune, some might say this episode was giving inspirational nods left and right.
 
True, but the Bene Gesserit work through manipulation and backstabbing. These ones were at least honest enough to present themselves as assassins upfront.
 
I liked this one, loved seeing Dooku finally demonstrate why he was considered one of the best duelists in the Order. I like what they've done with the nightsisters so far, particularly design-wise. Little disappointed we didn't get to see Dooku take down a Rancor, but I suppose that would've distracted from what this episode was all about.

Be very interesting to see when or if they hit the reset button on Ventress' storyline, and where things go from there if they don't.

Temis the Vorta said:
I'd like more details about Ventress' backstory. Dooku offered to train her in the Dark Side, but why did she accept?

Yeah, I was very surprised they went to confirming her EU backstory but not her motivation. She blames the Jedi for abandoning her master on Rattatak, and his death. Per the episode, she wanted revenge. Also EU-wise she did think she was the one Dooku was going to overthrow Sidious with, even suggesting they do so in Dark Rendezvous, warning Dooku that Palps will use him and then discard him.
 
Does anyone else suspect that Sidious ordered the hit on Ventress because he knew that if she survived, she'd go after Dooku and possibly end up taking his place. That sneaky bugger has a bit of a history of turning apprentices against one another in order to keep himself on top.

I'm sure it was intentional, but did anyone else notice that everyone Ventress has ever looked up to is a man she called "master"? Now there's a woman with some serious emotional attachment issues. All of a sudden it makes sense how she's tolerated being used as an attack dog.

Loved all the little Dune references, from the Bene Gesserit riffing Nightsisters, the water of life, even the little hunter-seeker. Very nice.

I'm not up on much of the EU (stopped reading the books way back in the 'Black Fleet Crisis' days) so I'm assuming all of that backstory stuff is already established? I have to ask though, what race are the Nightsisters? Like I said, I've been out of the loop for years but as I recall the Dathomir witches were human, were they not?

Speaking of Dathomir, I wonder if they'll touch on Yoda's previous visit a couple centuries back.
 
Also EU-wise she did think she was the one Dooku was going to overthrow Sidious with, even suggesting they do so in Dark Rendezvous, warning Dooku that Palps will use him and then discard him.
You wonder why Dooku can't figure that out for himself. The only way two Sith can ever be relatively safe from the others' machinations is if they have an intensely strong personal bond. Seems like Dooku and Ventress had that bond, which maybe is why she didn't predict his betrayal.

Dooku just seems kind of stupid by comparison with Ventress. The better long-term strategy is to betray Sidious in Ventress' favor, not the other way around. Dooku deserves what he's going to get, for being a dolt.

Does anyone else suspect that Sidious ordered the hit on Ventress because he knew that if she survived, she'd go after Dooku and possibly end up taking his place.

That's my assumption, too. Sidious put this whole thing into motion to see who's the better Sith to partner up with. Ventress is smart, cunning and kicks ass. Plus she's younger. Her only disadvantage is that she is more loyal to Dooku than she'd be to Sidious, but now he's destroyed that loyalty.

Maybe where this story is going is to establish that Sidious is looking for a young, strong replacement for Dooku, someone with a lot of growth potential. He's set his sights on Ventress, but no doubt she's going to end up dead, maybe not this season but by the series' end. And then he'll need to look around for another young Jedi who fits the same characteristics...
 
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