The Khitomer Alliance?
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The Selelvians from Peter David's books were forced to leave the Federation.
I wonder sometimes, if you really think things like this, or if you're just trying to get a rise out of people. I'm going to assume the latter, because the former is just pretty much ridiculous.
kkozoriz1
Fleet Captain
Of course it's an exageration but not much of one. Let's say I wouldn't be surprised to see it happen. We're talking about a Federation where the current president strongly believes that her predecessor has been assasinated and rather than investigating she allows one of her main suspects to simply resign.
There's lot's of corruption in the halls of the Federation these days.
There's lot's of corruption in the halls of the Federation these days.
The Commonwealth of Independent States (not Confederation) is a joke. It isn't the least bit relevant on the international stage, and numerous former Soviet client states and former Soviet republics have moved to join the American sphere of influence, especially Poland and Georgia. The Russian Federation is certainly trying to re-assert itself in its old imperial domains, but it's just not as powerful as it once was and probably never will be.
As others have pointed out, there's no law against citizens of non-Federation Member States from serving in Starfleet. Further, it's entirely possible that the Federation government might offer to extend Federation citizenship to any Andorian citizen serving in Starfleet should they chose to stay.
As for Andorian members of the Federation government, this would, again, probably depend on that individual's personal decisions and upon their offices. For instance, it's safe to say that the office of Federation Councillor from Andor would be defunct, but there's no reason that an Andorian serving as, say, Secretary of Agriculture or Assistant Secretary of the Exterior for Klingon Affairs couldn't continue serving, provided they choose to retain Federation citizenship and maintain loyalty to the UFP. Those individuals may run the risk of losing their Andorian citizenship if Andor's secession is hostile, but that doesn't mean they'd automatically lose their Federation citizenship. Compare it to Southerners who continued serving in the U.S. government after the South seceded -- if they placed their primary loyalty to the U.S., the federal government wasn't going to stop them.
As for "non-Andorian Federation citizens living there," what do you mean by "non-Andorian?" Do you mean, not citizens of Andor, or do you mean, not biologically Andorian? Presumably, any citizen of Andor under Federation would remain a citizen of Andor after secession, irrelevant of that citizen's species. If Billy Bob Jones is the descendant of a Human who moved to Andor three generations ago and has lived on Andor all his life, I doubt the Andorians would just kick him off (unless a particularly speciesist faction has come to power); after all, he's an Andorian citizen, too. On the other hand, UFP citizens who are non-Andorian citizens would likely need to apply for a visa from the Andorian government to remain on Andor, the way they would any foreign state.
That doesn't follow one bit. Maryland is one of the founding members of the Union, but I promise you that the Governor of the State of Maryland is not privy to the nuclear launch codes or to classified data on how the radar systems on American warships work. There is no reason at all to assume that the Federation shares major classified data, if any, with the Member State governments.
^ Like I said, I think there's been enough strife. There should be at least some hope and stability, not endless slaughter and chaos. What is this, nuBSG?
Let's bear in mind that the book hasn't come out yet and we don't know what will actually happen in it.
(My only real concern is that I feel like we've already gone down the "founding member might secede" route in Losing the Peace, though, realistically I can see where that scenario might recur with different Members for different reasons.)
I think you're exaggerating. The point the characters in ZSG make is that the Federation needs the slipstream to continue to expand, and that without such expansion, the Federation will be unable to recover from the Borg Invasion and unable to compete with the Pact, at which point it will become a second-rate power dominated by the Pact the same way it used to dominate the Pact's members, threatening Federation lives and Federation security. It's not exactly the same as being on the brink of an instant hot war.
There is no evidence that the Andorian government would have access to slipstream technology, nor is there any evidence that the Pact would "win, easily." That's an exaggeration of the situation presented in ZSG.
... I beg your pardon?
The Federation has fought numerous cold wars with the Romulans and inherited Romulan hostilities from their war against Earth and its allies before the Federation was founded. It fought a war against the Tzenkethi and it fought a war against the Breen and it's been involved in numerous fights with the Tholian Assembly, including
waking up the Tholians' former slave-masters against their explicit warnings
Which is not to say that the Federation has been aggressive. But the Federation has certainly not simply turned the other cheek, either. The Federation has been more than willing to use force to defend itself, and to claim that they've only turned the other cheek and therefore encouraged Pact aggressiveness through appeasement is just nonsense.
That's besides the point. Christopher's point was that if a former Federation Member were accepted as an equal member of the Pact, it would likely use its power within the Pact to influence the Pact to be less aggressive towards the Federation.
This does not make sense at all. The Republic of Ireland has enjoyed decades of peace with the United Kingdom (even in spite of violence in Northern Ireland). Montenegro did not immediately go to war with Serbia when it seceded, nor did Kosovo seek war with Serbia upon secession. I'm aware of no nationalist Québécois who seek to wage war upon all of Canada upon Quebec becoming independent, nor any Scottish nationalists who want to bomb London. To the best of my knowledge, neither Flanders nor Wallonnia want war even if they break up the Kingdom of Belgium.
Certainly, a secessionist movement can lead to hostilities or war against the former larger polity. The Republic of Georgia, for instance, provoked the war against the Russian Federation in 2008. But it does not logically follow that it must lead to the seceding polity seeking a war against the larger polity. Most secessionist movements regard war as a means to an end -- a way of achieving independent -- rather than as a goal to seek upon becoming independent.
Let's play a word game.
"Also I would assume that any race angry enough with the United Kingdom to leave it, would want to make war against it afterward if they could. Especially a race as warlike and hot-tempered as the Irish."
Do you see the problem with your statement about the Andorians?
I really don't think that's a reasonable assessment of the Federation right now.
Let's talk about Bacco, for instance.
You keep going on about the fact that she let Admiral Ross retire. What you keep omitting is the set of circumstances (of which she is aware) that led her to reach this decision.
That set of circumstances being (as far as she knows) that Ross and a number of other admirals forced President Zife to resign at gunpoint because exposing Zife's crimes would in their view have led to a war with the Klingon Empire, killing millions of people, and that Ross thereafter took it upon himself to assassinate Zife.
Now, from Bacco's point of view, really, she doesn't have a whole lot of options. She may, for instance, disagree with the a priori assumption that publicly exposing Zife's crimes would have led to war with the Klingon Empire -- if Zife had still been alive and the Federation had extradited him to the Empire. However, upon Zife's demise, she loses any bargaining chips she has with the Klingons to mollify them.
Ergo, she's being forced by a journalist to choose between allowing Zife's crimes to go public and thereby start a war with the Klingons, or to force Ross to retire. (And remember, she forced him to retire, she did not allow him to retire.) While it's certainly not an ideal situation, I don't accept the premise that this choice is an indicator of fundamental corruption. It's an indicator of an imperfect world -- but I rather think that a choice that preserves an alliance that Federates and Klingons like Gorkon and James T. Kirk and Spock and President Ra-ghoratreii fought so hard to create is a far better, far nobler choice than one that sunders a longstanding alliance and gets millions of people killed.
It's far more a consequence of Zife's corruption than of Bacco's, at the end of the day, and while her choice is not perfect, I rather think the other option would be far more immoral.
Though we should bear in mind that, so far as we know, Selelvia did not secede from the Federation; rather, it was kicked out by the Federation Council once it was revealed that the Selelvians had been secretly using their telepathic powers to illicitly influence the rest of the Federation government. After its membership was terminated, Selevia aligned with the Orions and Tholian Assembly and fought a brief war with the Federation (though given how little attention has been paid to it, and how briefly it is described as lasting, I'd presume that this is more akin to a series of low-level skirmishes than a full-on war).
The VOY Relaunch novel Full Circle established that the planet of Kerovi was once a Federation Member and had seceded by 2378. Upon secession, it became another independent state and maintained diplomatic relations with the Federation.
The novel A Singular Destiny established that Cait is a Federation Member State with a long history of seceding and re-joining the UFP. (The cat wants in, the cat wants out...) As of mid-2380, it was still a Federation Member.
I think the issue of how the Federation would react to planetary secession in the post-Borg Invasion environment would be interesting. Neither party would have the sort of infinite resources they enjoyed prior to the Invasion, so it's possible that secession would cause more long-term problems for the Federation than it did prior.
Well, that would depend on any number of variables. Is the Andorian Empire seceding from the Federation to become an independent state again? Or is Andor becoming part of the Typhon Pact? If Andor is simply becoming independent again, then non-Andorian citizens who are Federation citizens in Andorian territory would likely need to apply for a visa to stay. The status of Federation installations in Andorian territory would be the result of the situation -- if the secession is relatively peaceable, the Federation might negotiate a treaty to keep its installations in place the way it did with Bajor to run Deep Space 9 and keep the Defiant in the Bajor system, or the way the U.S. negotiates "status-of-forces" agreements to run its network of military bases in foreign states.
Alternately, if the secession is far more hostile, the Starfleet might find itself having to defend Federation installations and citizens the way the U.S. Army had to defend Fort Sumter from Confederate attack, evacuating civilians and destroying any technology or data that could be used to threaten the Federation before the insurrectionists/secessions capture them. This would no doubt be complicated by the inevitability that, after two centuries, there would certainly be a huge pro-Federation Andorian faction -- if there's open fighting, it's likely to be a battle between anti-Federation Andorians and pro-Federation Andorians. The entire goddamn species wouldn't just turn on everyone else in the UFP, after all.
kkozoriz1
Fleet Captain
You're right, murdering a former President is a minor crime compared with allowing the truth of what was done in the name of the Federation. What else can they cover up in the name of preserving the standards the Federation was founded on?
If you make a mistake you own up to it and take the consequences. What happens if word later leaks out and the Klingons then discover not only what Zife did but that Bacco covered it up?
Let's not forget that one of Bacco's first concerns in ZSG was how to spin the situation at Utopia Planitia. You don't have to tell the entire truth for security reasons but what you do say MUST be truthful. Bacco seems more interested in covering her ass.
They could have Bashir using a flame-thrower on some unarmed andors engineers, I mean, once they leave the federation, they are fair game for him.
I'm happy to hear that you're willing to allow millions of innocent people to die in the name of "owning up" to your mistakes.
You do realize that the term "spin" is more complex than merely dishonesty, right? And that, furthermore, her motivation was not to "cover her own ass," but, rather, to prevent word from leaking that someone stole slipstream technology?
kkozoriz1
Fleet Captain
I'll never understand why some people assume that war is the only possible outcome of the events of the Typhon Pact arc. Historically, Star Trek has not been a series about war. The only time we've ever seen a state of war onscreen that lasted for more than one episode was the Dominion War. And granted, the Xindi arc could be considered a state of de facto war, but there was relatively little direct confrontation and matters were resolved diplomatically before the worst could happen. In the books, we've got one published novel and one upcoming novel about the Earth-Romulan War, but no other actual interstellar wars except in alternate realities (or in old novels now discounted by canon such as Spock Must Die!). On the other hand, we've had countless Trek stories over the decades in which war seemed imminent but ended up being averted at the last moment through compassion, diplomacy, clever political maneuvering, personal combat, alien intervention, or whatever. Statistically speaking, any astropolitical process in Trek that seems to be building toward war is immensely more likely to result in war being narrowly averted through some means than it is to result in an actual state of hostilities being declared.
So assuming that the only possible endgame of the Typhon Pact arc is a shooting war is ignoring 45 years of precedent. It's tantamount to assuming that if McCoy tells a joke, Spock will inevitably laugh at it.
So assuming that the only possible endgame of the Typhon Pact arc is a shooting war is ignoring 45 years of precedent. It's tantamount to assuming that if McCoy tells a joke, Spock will inevitably laugh at it.
No. It's not racist (which, let's be frank, was what you are effectively calling me) to say that the Andorians act a certain way, or have certain traits, because they are a fictional race and they are written that way.
It is logically impossible to be racist against a fictional creation, because the only traits they have are those which the writers give them. The concepts of a "warrior race" or "slave-owning race" may not be terribly *realistic,* but if a race is written as such, then that is exactly what it is. And we have seen numerous examples (and heard lots of dialogue) which portrays the Andorians as exactly what I said they are.
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No, we've seen examples of individual Andorians describing their race as warlike. That's only evidence for what those individuals believe about their species and culture. It doesn't mean there aren't alternative voices within that culture. I've heard Republican politicians and pundits insist that America is a conservative, Christian nation, but that doesn't change the fact that we've elected Democratic presidents many times or the fact that millions of Americans practice different faiths or no faith at all. You can't take the statements of individual characters as absolute truth. It's just opinion and belief.
And yes, the Andorians may have a martial tradition, but that doesn't make them berserkers with no impulse control the way the Klingons have been written. They've been peaceful core members of the Federation for two centuries, successfully transcending their bitter past enmity with the Vulcans. Surely that proves beyond doubt that, no matter what unsubstantiated rhetoric they may voice about their warlike nature, they're entirely capable of controlling their aggressions and making civilized, intelligent choices.
And yes, the Andorians may have a martial tradition, but that doesn't make them berserkers with no impulse control the way the Klingons have been written. They've been peaceful core members of the Federation for two centuries, successfully transcending their bitter past enmity with the Vulcans. Surely that proves beyond doubt that, no matter what unsubstantiated rhetoric they may voice about their warlike nature, they're entirely capable of controlling their aggressions and making civilized, intelligent choices.
Of course what that book did to the klingons is probably the major reason its been discounted, though it would be interesting to see another novel set in that universe just to see how that would have affected the political lanscape of the alpha quadrant.
ProtoAvatar
Fleet Captain
DO read ZSG.
Akaar, other admirals, the president's advisor said directly that there exists a state of cold war; that the only reason the Typhon Pact doesn't attack, but resorts to 'cloak and dagger' is because slipstream gives a semblance of equilibrium to the typhon pact/federation forces, despite the federation losses to the borg.
A well placed federation intelligence operative said that if the federation lost slipstream to the typhon pact, it will become a second rate power in as little as a year - no long-term 'exploration' involved ('exploration', Sci
?).At the end of the book, the president said directly that the situation is just like last centuries' situation with the klingons - a cold war with a good chance of becoming hot.
Sci, in ZSG it was directly said that, without slipstream, the federation will become a second rate power almost immediately.
Exploration
? Only a token number of ships were exploring. The rest were patrolling at home - from RBoE.Look up the romulan actions in TNG; the cardassian actions in TNG, DS9; etc.
The Federation's standard policy is to turn the other cheek; and it never works - unless helped by your enemy turning into a third world nation with a moon exploding, etc.
Considering the federation's behaviour as depicted in the canon series, each of those wars was preceded by a generous amount of attempted appeasement by the federation.
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B. A. S. H. I. R.
No E.
Bashir.
Unless you're saying something like "Fred is bashy, and Julian is bashier, but Sam is bashiest."
Sorry, just giving free rein to my nitpickiness.
No E.
Bashir.
Unless you're saying something like "Fred is bashy, and Julian is bashier, but Sam is bashiest."
Sorry, just giving free rein to my nitpickiness.
DO read ZSG.
Akaar, other admirals, the president's advisor said directly that there exists a state of cold war; that the only reason the Typhon Pact doesn't attack, but resorts to 'cloak and dagger' is because slipstream gives a semblance of equilibrium to the typhon pact/federation forces, despite the federation losses to the borg.
A well placed federation intelligence operative said that if the federation lost slipstream to the typhon pact, it will become a second rate power in as little as a year - no long-term 'exploration' involved ('exploration', Sci
At the end of the book, the president said directly that the situation is just like last centuries' situation with the klingons - a cold war with a good chance of becoming hot.
You know, government officials can be wrong. I see no reason to take Starfleet Intelligence estimates as the word of God, especially when (A) this is the same organization whose head tried to make herself a Borg queen, and (B) ZSG indicates they're relying on the Jack Pack as analysts again. The claim about the Federation becoming a second rate power sounds suspiciously like the Jack Pack predictions about the Dominion War.
We know historically that American policy makers often misinterpretted Soviet actions (read any book on the Cuban Missile Crisis published since the Russians opened their archives) and vice versa (see RYAN and Abel Archer). Do you really expect future cold wars to be any different?
Because the current books are so dark and dismal? What else fits so perfectly to ensure more angst, more death, more denigration of the characters? More sub-Tom Clancy plotting?
That is an unadulterated load of rubbish. If there were some kind of editorial mandate requiring us to "ensure" nothing but dark, dismal storytelling, I'd be looking for other work. I can guarantee you that there is no standing policy in place to make every book depressing. The past three Trek novels I've written (only one of which has been published to date, admittedly) have all been done with a light, upbeat tone in mind. Nobody told me I had to do them differently.
There's still plenty of optimism in Trek Lit. Yes, the characters are facing immense challenges, but they're generally overcoming them in the end, finding ways to survive and make peace and make new beginnings, just as Trek characters have always done in the face of adversity.
Darkness has always been part of Trek. Just to cite one example, the last three consecutive episodes of TOS's first season featured the outbreak of war with the Klingons; Kirk being forced to let the love of his life die; and Kirk's brother and sister-in-law dying in a planetwide disaster. So yeah, there's darkness, and sometimes it comes in clumps. But that doesn't mean it's the only thing there is.
And even if that weren't so, even if there were some intention of keeping things dark and depressing, that doesn't require a war story. Give us some credit for imagination. And remember your history. The Cold War was plenty dark and dismal without open warfare ever breaking out.
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