The Khitomer Alliance?

[Jakks]

I definitely have noticed in my area (CA-Central Valley) that the Star Trek books get much less shelf space than Star Wars.

As far as books and the internet go, I've yet to order an eBook, (prob never will, I'm stuck on tactile objects I guess). However I do order 'real' books quite often from Amazon...I'd actually say around 70% of my book buying is done via internet these days.

Tho lately to cut down on wait time/shipping costs (Due to my presently reduced circumstances - ie unemployed) I have been checking with the local booksellers before I order online.

 

[CaptainDonovin]

Fully intended to purchase Rough Beasts of Empire at 2 different bookstores today... and both stores said the same thing, "It's out, but we don't have a copy. We could order one for you." I figured they were sold out, but apparently they hadn't had any on order.

Apparently the Borders, Barnes & Noble in my area have stopped ordering new Star Trek books unless asked to in advance.

I miss the Wal-Mart I frequented in College, they had a kick-ass sci-fi book section and always had the new Trek books early and at a discount.

I decided to skip Seize The Fire, but I really wanted to read RBoE tonight, because of the Spoiler I read in another thread regarding the leadership of a major power.

And now the taunting! It never ends.

Maybe next week.

Funny, I had the exact response here in the Twin Cities when I attempted to get RBoE. Borders had two being shipped to them & B&N had four in store but the guy helping me was no help at all. I finally just gave up & ordered it (along w/ the 2011 SotL calendar) from Amazon, I give up on the book stores.

 

[JD]

The thing that was really starting to drive me crazy before I switched over to ebooks was the condition of the Trek books that I was finding. I admit I'm really picky when it comes to books (I don't like scratches on the cover, or cracked spines or gouges taken out of the tops or bottoms of the pages) and it was getting harder and harder to find undamaged books. There were a few where I simply had to find the one with the smallest scratches or gouges instead of finding one with none.

 

[Technobuilder]

^I've had similar issues with the condition of the books being less than adequate on those rare occasions when the store actually had what I wanted on the shelf.

Amazon is another option that people point to, but I've had a few damaged books from them as well.

I don't think Pocket Books has much control over whether a book store employee opens a pallet with a box-cutter and destroys 10 books in the process though. (I've even seen it happen in person. The sight doesn't exactly fill you with confidence to return.)

 

[ATimson]

Amazon is another option that people point to, but I've had a few damaged books from them as well.

They've been pretty good about replacing damaged books in my experience.

 

[BrotherBenny]

I went into my local B&N (North East Mall in Hurst, TX) to get my father an origami book and I decided to see what they had on offer vis a vis Star Trek novels.

They had Shattered Light, What's Past, the entire TNG Relaunch from Death in Winter to Losing the Peace, both Typhon Pact books out at the time, the most recent New Frontier, DS9 and Voyager books, and few of the older ones besides. I was suitably impressed, since it was on two and a half shelves, with another two and a half being taken up by Star Wars books.

To get this thread back on topic, I would actually like to see Federation members opt to secede and join the Typhon Pact instead (like what might be happening in the last Pact book). It is natural that some members might see more benefits belonging to a different political entity.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ I don't agree. I don't want the Federation to fall. Play up the tension if they must, but leave things intact in the end.

Spoiler: Paths of Disharmony

Especially if it's the Andorians. They're a founding member of the Federation, for God's sake! Why have them leave? What's next, Vulcan? If you can't trust a charter UFP member, then all hope is lost.

 

[BrotherBenny]

^ I don't agree. I don't want the Federation to fall. Play up the tension if they must, but leave things intact in the end.

The Federation is a minimum of 150-members strong. Losing 1% or 2% is not going to make the Federation fall, even if one of those members is a founding member. Look at the shifting allegiances of Earth's countries in the last hundred years, did any of those political entities fall completely? A good example is the Soviet Union which fell but the Confederation of Independent States is merely a new alliance risen from the ashes of the old. The League of Nations fell but the United Nations emerged. Both entities are stronger than their predecessors.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ IMHO, there's been more than enough "ashes" lately. Trek should not be a dystopia. And, using one of your examples, I would hardly call the CIS a stronger entity than the Soviet Union.

Besides...

Spoiler: spoiler

If Andor bolts, what happens to all the Andorians serving in Starfleet? Andorian members of the Federation government? Federation or Starfleet installations on Andor itself? Non-Andorian Federation CITIZENS living there?

Also, Andor - being a Federation member - would naturally be privy to all the Federation's secrets. If the Pact gets ahold of all that, the UFP would be toast.

 

[BrotherBenny]

Spoiler: spoiler

If Andor bolts, what happens to all the Andorians serving in Starfleet? Andorian members of the Federation government? Federation or Starfleet installations on Andor itself? Non-Andorian Federation CITIZENS living there?

Also, Andor - being a Federation member - would naturally be privy to all the Federation's secrets. If the Pact gets ahold of all that, the UFP would be toast.

Spoiler: Spoiler

There are numerous examples in the books and canon of historically antagonistic species becoming members of Star Trek. But Andorian members of the Fed council would be expelled/removed from office, and Andorian citizens could choose whether they wanted to stay on Fed worlds or not. Andorian Starfleet officers would probably be allowed to stay if they chose to. It would make an interesting story

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

There are numerous examples in the books and canon of historically antagonistic species becoming members

But what about the reverse? Has there ever been a member of the Federation which permanently left it? If so, what were the long term consequences?

Spoiler: spoiler

And I repeat, what would happen to Federation citizens or installations on Andor? Would they become hostages of the Pact?

 

[Jakks]

It would make an interesting story

Indeed it would. In fact a bit of internal strife within Starfleet & the Federation may be an unavoidable outcome of the trauma done to the UFP in the wake of the Borg Invasion.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ Like I said, I think there's been enough strife. There should be at least some hope and stability, not endless slaughter and chaos. What is this, nuBSG?

 

[Christopher]

There are numerous examples in the books and canon of historically antagonistic species becoming members

But what about the reverse? Has there ever been a member of the Federation which permanently left it? If so, what were the long term consequences?

No reason why there would have to be consequences on an individual level. Species identity isn't the same as political affiliation. Plenty of American citizens weren't born here, or had parents who weren't born here. Our current president is the child of an immigrant father. So if a given Federation planet, say, randomly, Efros Delta, were to secede, there's no reason why Efrosian individuals who were citizens of Earth or Tellar or Benecia would have their status affected in any way. If the Federation were to assume that everyone who happened to be biologically Efrosian shared the policies of the Efrosian government, that would be as racist as the US treating all Japanese-Americans as potential enemy agents during WWII.

Conversely, anyone -- whether biologically Efrosian or not -- who was a citizen of Efros Delta would share its new political affiliation (either independence or membership in some other interstellar state). If relations with the newly separate Efros Delta were amiable, then its citizens could probably obtain visas to remain in the UFP. I don't think they'd run a risk of deportation unless there were an open state of war or something.

As far as Starfleet goes, there's abundant precedent of Starfleet personnel from non-member worlds -- Worf, Nog, Sito Jaxa and other Bajorans, etc. Worf was able to retain his Starfleet status even during a time of war with the Klingon Empire, but then, as the adopted son of the Rozhenkos, he's legally a citizen of Earth. But if there were any Klingon nationals participating in an officer exchange program with Starfleet, they would've presumably been sent home once the Khitomer Accords were breached.

Spoiler: spoiler

And I repeat, what would happen to Federation citizens or installations on Andor? Would they become hostages of the Pact?

Spoiler: same

It depends on whether there's actually a state of hostility between the nations. Events in the books do seem to be leaning that way, but I have a hard time believing the Andorians, or any other long-standing UFP member, would seek to go to war with the UFP. If a stalwart UFP member joined the Pact, hypothetically speaking, I'd expect them to be more of a mollifying, stabilizing influence.

 

[ATimson]

But what about the reverse? Has there ever been a member of the Federation which permanently left it? If so, what were the long term consequences?

That actually left? None that I can think of. Vulcan threatened to secede in Spock's World, though. Per that book, Vulcans on other worlds would have been given the choice to return to Vulcan (or her colonies) or renounce their citizenship and remain in the Federation. Non-Vulcans would be deported from the planet. (No mention of what would have happened to the Intrepid... though since earlier Duane books indicated that it was built by the Vulcans, they'd probably get to keep it.)

 

[ProtoAvatar]

Spoiler: same

It depends on whether there's actually a state of hostility between the nations. Events in the books do seem to be leaning that way, but I have a hard time believing the Andorians, or any other long-standing UFP member, would seek to go to war with the UFP. If a stalwart UFP member joined the Pact, hypothetically speaking, I'd expect them to be more of a mollifying, stabilizing influence.

The Typhon Pact was depicted in ZSG as in a state of cold war with the Federation.
Also established in ZSG - slipstream is the only tech that maintains an equilibrium of power between the Khitomer accords/the Typhon Pact. And this equilibrium is the only reason the Typhon Pact doesn't engage in a hot war.

If the Andorians would secede from the Federation and give the Typhon Pact the slipstream tech, the Typhon Pact would come shooting - and it'll win, easily.

Really, Christopher - "mollifying, stabilizing influence"? The Typhon Pact members are to be swayed by so little a thing?
For centuries, the Federation turned the other cheek innumerable times when dealing with Typhon Pact members. Far from 'mollifying', all this ever did was to encourage said members to be even more aggressive - knowing they can act with almost total impunity (canon examples abound).

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Also I would assume that any race angry enough with the Federation to leave it, would want to make war against it afterward if they could.

Spoiler: spoiler

Especially a race as warlike and hot-tempered as the Andorians.

 

[ATimson]

Also I would assume that any race angry enough with the Federation to leave it, would want to make war against it afterward if they could.

Why would they have to be angry to want to leave it? Why not just disappointed or disillusioned, where they'd rather go their own way but don't see a need to strike down the Federation?

 

[Christopher]

Also I would assume that any race angry enough with the Federation to leave it, would want to make war against it afterward if they could.

Spoiler: spoiler

Especially a race as warlike and hot-tempered as the Andorians.

I think that's a reach. Most people who get divorces, even bitter ones, don't immediately try to murder their ex-spouses. Once the bond has been severed, the goal achieved, what reason is there to use force? Generally, the war comes first, then the independence, not the other way around.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Also I would assume that any race angry enough with the Federation to leave it, would want to make war against it afterward if they could.

Why would they have to be angry to want to leave it? Why not just disappointed or disillusioned

With some races, that's the same thing.