^ I'm not following.
You will; I'll explain.
Please do.
I will, but please answer my question first.
I am not.
But, I ask again: Is Europe today a better place than Europe in 1935?
The Khitomer Alliance?
- Thread starter Technobuilder
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I will, but please answer my question first.
I am not.
But, I ask again: Is Europe today a better place than Europe in 1935?
You will, once you answer my question.
Is Europe today a better place than Europe in 1935?
^ How many times I gotta say this? I DON'T KNOW!!!! 
The only other thing I can think of is that yes, it is, if only for the fact that they no longer have Hitler to deal with. But somehow I doubt that's what you were referring to either. And surely it would have been better had Hitler never existed, just as in this case, the situation would be better if Andor was still a member of the Federation (united we stand, divided we fall, and all that).
The only other thing I can think of is that yes, it is, if only for the fact that they no longer have Hitler to deal with. But somehow I doubt that's what you were referring to either. And surely it would have been better had Hitler never existed, just as in this case, the situation would be better if Andor was still a member of the Federation (united we stand, divided we fall, and all that).
^ How many times I gotta say this? I DON'T KNOW!!!!
You never said it. You kept asking what I was talking about; you never said you don't know if Europe today is better than it was in 1935.
Well, sort-of-but-not-really.
Here's where I'm getting at:
I don't think you can reasonably say that Europe today is not a better place than it was in 1935. Europe in 1935 was a land torn apart by ancient grudges, with its various nations constantly at war with one-another. Indeed, the wars of Europe had been going on for centuries -- the English against the French, the French against the Germans, the Germans against the Italians, etc etc etc. The wars of Europe would seemingly never end, and World War II was only the latest such.
And yet today, what do we have in Europe? We have the European Union. It's certainly facing its difficulties right now, but we now have this supranational union that's made the very concept of a war in Europe virtually unthinkable. The old rivalries are still there, but it's all sublimated. There's a larger sense of European unity at work.
My point is this:
From 1935 to 2011, things have gotten much, much better in Europe. In no reasonable sense could someone not say that things have gotten brighter.
Yet that doesn't mean that horrible, dark things did not happen, too. The European Community may have emerged only a few decades after World War II, but it only took a few years for Europe to be divided by an "Iron Curtain" between the Soviet client states and the American allies.
And yet, even in spite of that darkness, things have moved to a much brighter place.
My point is this:
Dark things can happen to the Federation with the larger meta-arc still moving on to something much brighter and more positive.
In fact, it's a guarantee. Know why? 'Cos the framing story of ENT: The Good That Men Do, set in the 25th Century, explicitly established that the Federation had entered a new age of pax galactica. Brighter days are coming, even if things get dark.
Was the concept of the Typhon Pact even thought of when TGTMD was written?
And even so, that doesn't mean that future writers have to adhere to the framing story, does it? Especially since that story (not the body of the novel, of course, just the framing) was basically just a throwaway.
There is a new continuity among novels, but that can be discarded at any point. (Indeed, The Needs of the Many has already done so, since it takes place in the ST Online timeline.)
Although I dearly hope that the writers *do* incorporate that framing story, for the reasons you describe, plus it means that Section 31 really will fall.
We don't know.
Sure, they could ignore it. But I see no reason to think they will.
Novels that don't take place within the standard continuity -- I call it the Destinyverse -- have been published all along. That doesn't mean that the Destinyverse isn't heading towards the pax galactica established in TGTMD or that TGTMD's framing story will be ignored in Destinyverse novels.
Although I dearly hope that the writers *do* incorporate that framing story, for the reasons you describe, plus it means that Section 31 really will fall.
I have every confidence they will. And, like I said: A story can get dark at points without the over-all arc leading only to greater darkness.
I can understand people who think the books are dark. I myself have qualms with how some of this is going. Hell, I was complaining about the Borg again in Destiny.
But remember, it's hard to have light without dark. Trek's 'light' and positive outlook was and is based on how dark things are now (and in the fake near Star Trek future). I might not agree with all of TrekLit's stuff right now, but I do like them shaking it up. Give me another reason to read. If you want to simply read about the crew and random alien missions, read any number of the novels already out. But I view the novels as the new seasons of the shows, and there has to be some kind of plot driving them all. I have faith that these guys and gals will take us someplace of value.
And Trek has always had darkness. War and battle have been around since TOS (it makes for good TV). The latest is a big shakeup to be sure, but let's not act like people have never died before or a war has never been fought.
And for a few people who are "done with the 24th century books", you guys sure do a lot of posting in the "24th century books" topics. Especially without having read them.
But remember, it's hard to have light without dark. Trek's 'light' and positive outlook was and is based on how dark things are now (and in the fake near Star Trek future). I might not agree with all of TrekLit's stuff right now, but I do like them shaking it up. Give me another reason to read. If you want to simply read about the crew and random alien missions, read any number of the novels already out. But I view the novels as the new seasons of the shows, and there has to be some kind of plot driving them all. I have faith that these guys and gals will take us someplace of value.
And Trek has always had darkness. War and battle have been around since TOS (it makes for good TV). The latest is a big shakeup to be sure, but let's not act like people have never died before or a war has never been fought.
And for a few people who are "done with the 24th century books", you guys sure do a lot of posting in the "24th century books" topics. Especially without having read them.
Right. By now, we should've had eugenic superhumans conquer half the world and wage a massive global war. Not to mention the even more massive nuclear war scheduled to come along in about 40 years. Trek's late 20th and 21st centuries are far darker than the real ones have been so far. Roddenberry always believed things would have to get a lot worse before we finally came to our senses as a species and got our act together.
Or the mass imprisonment of the poor and the homeless that should come along in 20 years. That'll never happen.
....
Damnit.
kkozoriz1
Fleet Captain
But have we gotten our act together by the 24th century? Based on a number of actions in the novels of late I'd say not.
How dark are things going to get? Will we see more actions like in Paths of Disharmony? Will the Klingons find out the truth about Tezwa and declare war as some have suggested? Are we heading into an era of a greatly diminished Federation standing alone against the rest of the galaxy? That would certainly be a dark time for the Federation to rise from. Maybe a nice civil war. Haven't had one of those yet.
Being dragged down to darkness isn't the only way to have a brighter future.
kkozoriz1
Fleet Captain
Yeah, that was a crazy idea even for Star Trek
Police Raid City-Sanctioned Homeless Camp – Force Everyone to Wear Color-coded Wristbands – “Tent City”Had Grown to 400 Residents
http://obrag.org/?p=5256
How do you define "we," and how do you define "getting our act together?"
Who knows? But we know it will lead to a pax galactica by the 25th Century. I am unworried. A story that gets dark but ends in light is still a comedy by the classical definition of the term. That Dante went to Inferno first does not negate his travels in Paradise.
Now that is horrifying. Thanks for that link.
kkozoriz1
Fleet Captain
You'll have to as Christopher since I was using his phrasing.
But, the rounding up of the homeless is a good thing because things can always get better!
The pax galactica is one possible future. I doubt that it's set in stone that the Prime Universe MUST follow that storyline.
In the new books, the darkness is a result of a mixture of actions. The Borg onslaught isn't exactly surprising. It seemed likely to happen as a result of all the TNG and VOY episodes. I hate the Borg, so I wasn't thrilled to see them again, but it made sense for the story.
And it was turmoil. It was sad. It was nasty. It was disheartening. But now what happens? That is the story. It is what is so important now. Will the Federation crumble? Or will we see a renaissance of those ideals establish the saving of the Federation? It is now more important than ever for our hero ships and Captains to do big things. Will they always succeed? No. And they shouldn't. Perfection isn't dramatic or entertaining. Adversity is. It took Picard two times to get into Starfleet. It doesnt always happen the first time. Or the perfect way. But now, when it may seem the darkest (succession, cold war, billions dead, rebuilding) now, but how will it all get put back together? I wanna know, so I'll keep buying TrekLit. If you don't care anymore (and you've stated without end you aren't) then quit reading the books. And quit reading these posts. But for people like me who (I believe) are getting the point, we'll keep reading and enjoying.
And it was turmoil. It was sad. It was nasty. It was disheartening. But now what happens? That is the story. It is what is so important now. Will the Federation crumble? Or will we see a renaissance of those ideals establish the saving of the Federation? It is now more important than ever for our hero ships and Captains to do big things. Will they always succeed? No. And they shouldn't. Perfection isn't dramatic or entertaining. Adversity is. It took Picard two times to get into Starfleet. It doesnt always happen the first time. Or the perfect way. But now, when it may seem the darkest (succession, cold war, billions dead, rebuilding) now, but how will it all get put back together? I wanna know, so I'll keep buying TrekLit. If you don't care anymore (and you've stated without end you aren't) then quit reading the books. And quit reading these posts. But for people like me who (I believe) are getting the point, we'll keep reading and enjoying.
kkozoriz1
Fleet Captain
After Destiny we were told, this is not the new status quo. Things will get better. The light seems brighter after it's gotten darker. Well, the darkness just keeps on coming. When does it start getting lighter?
The TP series seems to have been set up for two reasons. First, to create this new adversary for the Federation. Second, to drag the DS9 characters down to the darkness as well. I'm surprised that Keiko, Molly and Kirayoshi weren't casualties of the Borg and O'Brien is now an alcoholic. It would have fit right in.
I wasn't aware that the boards were only for those who agree with the darker turn of the main Treklit line. You learn something new every day.
The TP series seems to have been set up for two reasons. First, to create this new adversary for the Federation. Second, to drag the DS9 characters down to the darkness as well. I'm surprised that Keiko, Molly and Kirayoshi weren't casualties of the Borg and O'Brien is now an alcoholic. It would have fit right in.
I wasn't aware that the boards were only for those who agree with the darker turn of the main Treklit line. You learn something new every day.
The boards are obviously for everyone. I don't have to tell you that, you long ago knew it. Keep posting. I actually enjoy going back and forth with people, it's entertaining.
DS9's problem isn't the darkness (to me), it's the missing four years. The entire Federation is in the same mindset right now. It's one of shock and rebuilding. I really don't know why you made the comment about the DS9 characters. I'm not aware of any other universe characters that are now alcoholics or some other horrible fate (other than Janeway, which I thought was terrible myself). Actually, most of my complaints are pre-Destiny. I just don't really see why you hate it so much or think it's so dark. The Borg messed up a lot of stuff. That is dark, but I don't think it turned everyone into shells of themselves or alcoholics.
But I will make an observation, for someone who seems so disgusted by the "darkness" you sure are a cynic. And I also find it ammusing that for someone who wants the "light" turned back on, you sure are full of negativity.
DS9's problem isn't the darkness (to me), it's the missing four years. The entire Federation is in the same mindset right now. It's one of shock and rebuilding. I really don't know why you made the comment about the DS9 characters. I'm not aware of any other universe characters that are now alcoholics or some other horrible fate (other than Janeway, which I thought was terrible myself). Actually, most of my complaints are pre-Destiny. I just don't really see why you hate it so much or think it's so dark. The Borg messed up a lot of stuff. That is dark, but I don't think it turned everyone into shells of themselves or alcoholics.
But I will make an observation, for someone who seems so disgusted by the "darkness" you sure are a cynic. And I also find it ammusing that for someone who wants the "light" turned back on, you sure are full of negativity.
But, the rounding up of the homeless is a good thing because things can always get better!
Listen, I'm sorry if you and I have different tastes in what makes for a good story. Obviously dark stories where people do questionable things aren't as enjoyable for you as they are for me.
But to take my taste in fiction and to try to imply that it must therefore apply to my views of real life? That's just unfair and insulting.
Rounding up the homeless is not a good thing and should be stopped, immediately, period, no ifs, ands, or buts. I may well not mind a story about that, but that doesn't mean I'm not horrified by the thought of it happening in real life or that I don't want it stopped immediately.
It isn't set in stone that any book "must" follow any particular storyline. But I see no reason to think the Destinyverse novels are going to contradict it.
kkozoriz1
Fleet Captain
But, the rounding up of the homeless is a good thing because things can always get better!
Listen, I'm sorry if you and I have different tastes in what makes for a good story. Obviously dark stories where people do questionable things aren't as enjoyable for you as they are for me.
But to take my taste in fiction and to try to imply that it must therefore apply to my views of real life? That's just unfair and insulting.
Rounding up the homeless is not a good thing and should be stopped, immediately, period, no ifs, ands, or buts. I may well not mind a story about that, but that doesn't mean I'm not horrified by the thought of it happening in real life or that I don't want it stopped immediately.
It isn't set in stone that any book "must" follow any particular storyline. But I see no reason to think the Destinyverse novels are going to contradict it.
I apologize. It was a poor attempt at humour and it was uncalled for. We are capable of doing horrible things to each other in real life. That's one reason I like my Trek fiction to have a more positive outlook. It helps remind me that we're capable of being better than we are now.
Considering the revolving door on the editors office these days, I'd be surprised if any long term plans are followed. However, it does seem that the darkening is with us for a while.
First off, there's no reason I'm aware of to expect the "revolving door" to continue. Jaime left for personal reasons, so her departure was not a continuation of the factors that led to Marco's and Margaret's dismissals.
Second, even with the editorial changes, the books intended as part of the ongoing continuity have pretty much stayed consistent with what's been established in the past -- just as the books edited by John Ordover, Marco, KRAD, Margaret, etc. maintained a common continuity among them. So a change in editors doesn't necessarily mean that established novel continuity will be disregarded.
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