Country's in Star Trek
- Thread starter John Vasiliou
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The Federation is based on a federal system (the name Federation in itself implies that).
In the 23rd C, "Leningrad" is not a city. It's an elaborate and extremely popular theme park built around 20th C Communism, and is the Happiest Place on Earth. Chekov has many cherished childhood memories of visiting Leningrad.
Okay, thats awesome.
A big problem with the United Federation of Planets being a straight forward federal system is the planet Vulcan. Vulcan is one of the Federation's founders and is a member. Vulcan has a independent defense fleet, Vulcan has independent ambassadors with foreign powers, some of whom are hostile to the Federation. Vulcan has a embassy with Bajor. Vulcan also has (TAS) ambassadors directly with other Federation members. Vulcan representatives have refused to be seated on the Federation council.
When in TUC the Federation envoy began talks with the Klingon Empire (which sends a ambassador directly to Vulcan) the Federation began those talk at the behest of the Vulcan ambassador. Behest means "authoritative command." Vulcan didn't ask politely for the Federation to talk to the Klingon Empire, Vulcan instructed them to do it.
In the (non-canon) graphic novel Star Trek Countdown, plotted by Star Trek Eleven co-writers Roberto Orci and Alex Kurtzman, Jean-Luc Picard was, in the year of the destruction of Romulus, the Federation ambassador to Vulcan.
None of this make Vulcan sound in the least like a state. If anything it make the Federation sound like the subordinate or junior member in the relationship.
A Federation can be simply a union of political organizations, which doesn't automatically suggest a federal governmental system.
And let us not forget the AFL-CIO, also a federation (federation of labor unions), an assemblage of separate organizations, the AFL-CIO is governed by it's members through elections, has a President and Vice-president (actually 43 of them) and is considered a governing council. But not a federal government.
When in TUC the Federation envoy began talks with the Klingon Empire (which sends a ambassador directly to Vulcan) the Federation began those talk at the behest of the Vulcan ambassador. Behest means "authoritative command." Vulcan didn't ask politely for the Federation to talk to the Klingon Empire, Vulcan instructed them to do it.
In the (non-canon) graphic novel Star Trek Countdown, plotted by Star Trek Eleven co-writers Roberto Orci and Alex Kurtzman, Jean-Luc Picard was, in the year of the destruction of Romulus, the Federation ambassador to Vulcan.
None of this make Vulcan sound in the least like a state. If anything it make the Federation sound like the subordinate or junior member in the relationship.
Or the Federation is based on the International Federation of Association Football (the name equally implies that too).
A Federation can be simply a union of political organizations, which doesn't automatically suggest a federal governmental system.
And let us not forget the AFL-CIO, also a federation (federation of labor unions), an assemblage of separate organizations, the AFL-CIO is governed by it's members through elections, has a President and Vice-president (actually 43 of them) and is considered a governing council. But not a federal government.
That's not a problem at all, actually. There are real-life federal systems whose constituent polities maintain their own independent defense forces in real life. In the U.S., in addition to the state National Guards, there are also the State Defense Forces, which only ever answer to the state governments and cannot be called into federal service the way the National Guards can. So, for instance, there's the Ohio Naval Militia and the Massachusetts State Defense Force.
That doesn't present an insurmountable obstacle. States in the U.S. regularly maintain offices and send delegations to other countries in order to promote business interests. If we presume that Vulcan has maintained some ceremonial diplomatic missions from before it became a Federation Member, but that those relations are authorized and supervised by the Federation Department of the Exterior in the same way that U.S. states' relations are subject to the will of the Department of State, this doesn't rule anything out.
To a point, this almost seems inevitable, even with an interstellar federal state. We're talking about a political system so mind-bloggingly huge that it's unrealistic to expect the Federation government to control every aspect of Members' relations with one-another. It makes sense that it would allow Members to conduct direct bilateral relations amongst themselves, subject to Federation supervision if problems arise.
Eh, not exactly. T'Pau is described as the only person to have refused a seat on the Federation Council, but that doesn't mean she was the actual Federation Councillor from Vulcan. It's just as likely that that line means that she would have been guaranteed victory in an election to Vulcan's Federation Council seat but chose not to run. It's a fairly ambiguous line.
(Besides, an elected legislator who refuses to assume office doesn't mean that the system itself isn't federal.)
I think that's stretching things a lot. "Behest" can also simply mean "an urgent request or prompting." And the fact that Sarek is called "the Vulcan Ambassador" doesn't necessarily tell us anything. The Vulcan Ambassador to what? Or is he a Federation Ambassador who happens to be Vulcan? Margaret Thatcher wasn't actually made of iron, but that didn't stop people from calling her the Irony Lady. And in the film itself, the Federation President is rather obviously the person in charge, not Sarek or the Vulcan government. No one asks the Vulcans if the Federation should invade Qo'noS to rescue Kirk and McCoy.
Normally, I'm all for including non-canonical stuff. But that one was just bad.
Besides, Star Trek: Countdown contradicted the ENT novels, which established that the Vulcan head of government is called the First Minister of the Confederacy of Vulcan rather than the Praetor.
Well, actually it does. You're presenting the argument that Vulcan constitutes a sovereign state, as opposed to a constituent state like what we have in the U.S.
The problem with this notion is that we have seen the Federation exercise all of the powers of a sovereign state. We've seen it conduct foreign relations with foreign states, we've seen it declare and wage war, we've seen it making binding law that its Members must obey (the Warp 5 speed limit), we've seen it organize and maintain its own military (Starfleet), we've seen it declare martial law on its Members' territory without consulting its Members' governments ("Homefront"/"Paradise Lost"), we've seen it operate a law enforcement agency (Federation Security in ST3), we've seen it operate numerous executive departments with binding authorities, we've heard that it has its own Cabinet ("Extreme Measures," DS9), we've seen it override local law when those laws conflicted ("The Cloud Minders," "Accession"), we've seen it guarantee all sentient individuals in its territory certain rights under its Constitution ("The Perfect Mate," "The Drumhead"), we've been told that its Federation Supreme Court can overturn any law in the Federation because of judicial review ("Dr. Bashir, I Presume?"), we've seen it assemble Federation Grand Juries ("The Ascent"), we've seen its courts make binding case law in suits involving citizens from differing Federation Members ("Author, Author").
By contrast, we've never seen Vulcan do anything that defied the Federation government. Ever. Nor have we ever seen Vulcan give instructions to the Federation government. Ever.
We didn't see the federation President consulted with or seek the approval of the Earth government. Of course we also did not see the federation President consult /seek federation legislative or parliamentary authorization or interact with the federation attorney general, he simply authorized a state of emergency independently. That doesn't really sound like a federal system does it?
But if he later had to run it pass the federation council to make everything legal, then he also might have had to run it pass Untied Earth to (again) make everything legal.
Perhaps what we saw in the office was him giving Starfleet a provisional go ahead, because the federation President felt confident that the actual group of people empowered to declare a state of emergency/martial law would listen to his advise and council.
Actual The Cloud Minder prove my point more than yours, The local government leader directly points out to Kirk that Federation orders do not over-ride local government decisions, Kirk had no come back to that direct statement. And what local law were you referring to?
At the beginning of TVH, Kirk and company, most of whom are facing court martial, were given refuge on Vulcan for three months, until they decided to return to Earth on their own accord. That could be seen as a act of defiance on the part of the Vulcans. As a reward for preserving Spock's life, Vulcan employed their national sovereignty to sheltered Kirk and etc. from Federation extradition.
Surek, it would seem is the Vulcan ambassador at large. Although it's possible that at that time he was the Vulcan ambassador to the federation.
My argument is that Vulcan, and by extension all those who hold a membership in the Federation,
is a sovereign Country.
Been meaning to come back to this thread for a week or so, but life gets in the way. Hope no one minds!
Sure it does. In fact, it sounds like what most federal governments do. The President of the United States does not have to consult with the Governors of the States or with Congress if he wants to declare a State of Emergency, for instance. In fact, typically, a State Governor will issue a separate, state-level State of Emergency.
In other words, Kirk's dialogue establishes that Federation Membership entails certain legal obligations that the local government cannot override right there.
Actually, his dialogue is as follows, in negotiations over giving the Ardanan underclass access to filter masks:
He does not claim that Federation law does not over-ride Member State law. He claims that Kirk's orders from Starfleet do not entitle him to defy local law. That's not the same thing. It would be entirely accurate, for instance, for the Governor of the Commonwealth of Virginia to note that an order to the commanding officer of the U.S.S. Abraham Lincoln from the Secretary of Defense to get his ship underway would not entitle that officer to violate Virginia law. At no point is a claim made that Ardanan (or Virginian) law over-rides Federation law.
Furthermore, at the very end of the episode, we find this exchange:
(Transcript found here.)
Kirk is very clear that the Federation government will not allow the oppression of the Ardanan underclass to continue. Plasus is depicted as claiming no legal authority to prevent the Federation from interfering -- he's merely engaging in irrational and ineffective bluster. Furthermore, the DS9 episode "Accession" makes it very clear that the Federation Charter bans caste-based discrimination of the sort seen on Ardana.
Actually, we don't know if the Vulcan government was involved in that situation or not. Certainly Sarek and the Vulcan clergy at Mount Seleya knew where Kirk and Company were, but there's no indication that the Vulcan government knew where they were. It's entirely possible that Kirk and Company came in under cloak and landed in a part of the Forge that's immune to sensor scans.
After all, Eric Rudolph spent ten years hiding in the Appalachian Mountains, but that doesn't mean the government of North Carolina was deliberately hiding him from the United States.
Except we don't know what office he held at all. The closest we know is that in the Abramsverse timeline, he was Vulcan Ambassador to Earth.
No, you've been arguing that it's a sovereign state. A country is a geographical area considered a sovereign state's territory. (This is rendered confusing by popular vernacular's tendency to use the term country when it ought to use the term sovereign state.)
Sure it does. In fact, it sounds like what most federal governments do. The President of the United States does not have to consult with the Governors of the States or with Congress if he wants to declare a State of Emergency, for instance. In fact, typically, a State Governor will issue a separate, state-level State of Emergency.
The Cloud Minders said:
In other words, Kirk's dialogue establishes that Federation Membership entails certain legal obligations that the local government cannot override right there.
Actually, his dialogue is as follows, in negotiations over giving the Ardanan underclass access to filter masks:
He does not claim that Federation law does not over-ride Member State law. He claims that Kirk's orders from Starfleet do not entitle him to defy local law. That's not the same thing. It would be entirely accurate, for instance, for the Governor of the Commonwealth of Virginia to note that an order to the commanding officer of the U.S.S. Abraham Lincoln from the Secretary of Defense to get his ship underway would not entitle that officer to violate Virginia law. At no point is a claim made that Ardanan (or Virginian) law over-rides Federation law.
Furthermore, at the very end of the episode, we find this exchange:
(Transcript found here.)
Kirk is very clear that the Federation government will not allow the oppression of the Ardanan underclass to continue. Plasus is depicted as claiming no legal authority to prevent the Federation from interfering -- he's merely engaging in irrational and ineffective bluster. Furthermore, the DS9 episode "Accession" makes it very clear that the Federation Charter bans caste-based discrimination of the sort seen on Ardana.
Actually, we don't know if the Vulcan government was involved in that situation or not. Certainly Sarek and the Vulcan clergy at Mount Seleya knew where Kirk and Company were, but there's no indication that the Vulcan government knew where they were. It's entirely possible that Kirk and Company came in under cloak and landed in a part of the Forge that's immune to sensor scans.
After all, Eric Rudolph spent ten years hiding in the Appalachian Mountains, but that doesn't mean the government of North Carolina was deliberately hiding him from the United States.
Except we don't know what office he held at all. The closest we know is that in the Abramsverse timeline, he was Vulcan Ambassador to Earth.
No, you've been arguing that it's a sovereign state. A country is a geographical area considered a sovereign state's territory. (This is rendered confusing by popular vernacular's tendency to use the term country when it ought to use the term sovereign state.)
A big problem with the United Federation of Planets being a straight forward federal system is the planet Vulcan. Vulcan is one of the Federation's founders and is a member. Vulcan has a independent defense fleet, Vulcan has independent ambassadors with foreign powers, some of whom are hostile to the Federation. Vulcan has a embassy with Bajor. Vulcan also has (TAS) ambassadors directly with other Federation members. Vulcan representatives have refused to be seated on the Federation council.
When in TUC the Federation envoy began talks with the Klingon Empire (which sends a ambassador directly to Vulcan) the Federation began those talk at the behest of the Vulcan ambassador. Behest means "authoritative command." Vulcan didn't ask politely for the Federation to talk to the Klingon Empire, Vulcan instructed them to do it.
In the (non-canon) graphic novel Star Trek Countdown, plotted by Star Trek Eleven co-writers Roberto Orci and Alex Kurtzman, Jean-Luc Picard was, in the year of the destruction of Romulus, the Federation ambassador to Vulcan.
None of this make Vulcan sound in the least like a state. If anything it make the Federation sound like the subordinate or junior member in the relationship.
Or the Federation is based on the International Federation of Association Football (the name equally implies that too).
A Federation can be simply a union of political organizations, which doesn't automatically suggest a federal governmental system.
And let us not forget the AFL-CIO, also a federation (federation of labor unions), an assemblage of separate organizations, the AFL-CIO is governed by it's members through elections, has a President and Vice-president (actually 43 of them) and is considered a governing council. But not a federal government.
lol.. pedant. FIFA has control over all national and continental associations, especially concerning the laws of the game. No continental or national association, whether the FA in England, or UEFA in Europe has total jurisdiction over their respective areas. Handball, offside, or wearing disparate colour kits applies in all FIFA member associations, as stipulated per FIFA's laws.
In a political context, federation often implies to a federal political structure, so the assumption is valid given the Federation is an interstellar political entity. I personally think that the canon on this issue has been inconsistent. Vulcan may have embassies in other planets, but when Bajor was about to join the Federation in Rapture, the Admiral said that the Bajoran Militia had to be incorporated into Starfleet. Riker also once said that he met Deanna Troi whilst on detachment on Betazed.
As I understand it, the President of the United States lacks the Constitutional power to declare martial law from the Federal government level, only the US Congress came do this. The US President can no more declare martial law, than he can declare war.
Plasus mentions nothing about any orders from Starfleet, he speak solely towards orders coming from the Federation.
What could be clearer.
Where are you getting this from the episode?
But the obligation spoken of is to another Federation member, not a obligation to any kind of Federation central government. The obligation referred to is most likely directly towards Merak Two.
But says nothing about a planet possessing a social or economic class system.
And the episode Accession is a excellent example of what I've been proposing. If the Federation possessed the legal ability to "over-ride Member State law, or to "defy local governments," then Bajor having a caste system at the time they were admitted into the Federation would be no problem. The Federation Charter would eliminate the caste system as soon as Bajor became a member, or alternatively the Federation government would pass a measure dissolving the caste system.
However, if the Federation government lacked the power to interfere with member governments and their laws, then admitting Bajor with a caste system would result in a Federation member having a caste system. the only way to prevent this is for Bajor not to have a caste system when they were admitted. Also if a member hypothetically adopted a caste system while a member, the most the Federation would be able to do is expel them.
I stand by my choice of words. You might not like it, but for purposes of a discussion on a forum, nation, country, state, realm, etc. are completely interchangeable.
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Does this mean that in future Britain won't have a monarch?
Aw man!
Aw man!
Well, Yeah considering it's underwater in the Trekverse
Not necessarily, although I would doubt that they would survive
in any official capacity. There may be a "King (or Queen) of Great Britiain and Northern Ireland" of some sort, though. Maybe even as something akin to a city mayor <shrug>
We don't know for sure that the Vulcan's do or don't know where Kirk et al are. We also don't know for sure that the Federation don't know where they are. Maybe Cartright was on the comm to Kirk every night: "You've got to come home and face up to it, Jim. You've just got to. Stealing your ship to recover Spock's body we can paint. Hey, maybe you couldn't face not being the one to explore the Genesis planet. Maybe this could even be the chance we need to declare war on Qu'Nos <winks> You've not heard from the Organaian's lately, have you? Seriously, Jim, come home, please." It would probably serve StarFleet's public image if they came home of their own account, even if after a slight delay.
It could work in a similar way to the European Union: The EU council will pass a law. The member states then have a certain amount of time to ratify that law into their own body of law. Their own regulations are free to exceed the requirements of the EU; but must meet them as a minimum requirement.
dJE
Mea culpa -- I fell into this trap and you followed, but I was wrong in referring, initially, to President Jaresh-Inyo as having declared "martial law" in DS9's "Homefront"/"Paradise Lost." What he actually declares, looking at the episode transcript, is a State of Emergency.
In the United States, the President can declare a State of Emergency unilaterally, without Congressional authorization, in the same way that Jaresh-Inyo does in "Homefront." That's why former President Bush did not need a Congressional mandate to declare a State of Emergency after Hurricane Katrina, for instance.
Martial law is a different concept. In general, you are correct that the President must have Congressional approval for martial law because of the Posse Comitatus Act.
When he refers to "Federation orders" in the line "Your Federation orders do not entitle you to defy local governments," Plasus is referring to Kirk's orders from Starfleet to acquire and transport the zenite to the unnamed planet suffering a plague.
From Kirk's own behavior. He's confident that the Federation will intervene, and he's completely ignoring Plasus's bluster as being both ineffectual and not legally binding. He knows full well that Plasus is full of nonsense and that the entire Ardanian social structure is illegal under Federation law.
If Ardana had not given up some of its sovereignty, it would not have any obligations to another Federation Member.
Oh, please. It's the same damn thing.
But the Federation obviously isn't even going to bother accepting Bajor as a Member if they don't get rid of it by themselves first. By the same token, if, say, the Mormons in Utah had refused to ban polygamy on their own initiative, the United States would not have accepted Utah as a state in the Union. Are you going to claim that that means that federal law in the U.S. does not over-ride state law?
You may stand by your words, but they are still incorrect. The problem is that we're having a political science discussion, and when we do that, it's important to be clear and precise in our language, even if the vernacular is not. "Country" is not the proper term for what you are arguing Federation Member States constitute -- a "country" is merely an area of land, not a sovereign political association possessing the authority to make binding law on its citizens and the monopoly on the legitimate use of force.
ETA:
There's no particular reason the United Kingdom could not continue to exist with its current form of government as a division of the larger United Earth, with United Earth itself existing as a division of the Federation. In four hundred years, the United Kingdom of Great Britain (TNG did establish that Northern Ireland eventually became part of the Irish republic again) could easily still exist, with Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth VI reigning as the ceremonial monarch whilst Her Majesty's Government is being led by the newest Prime Minister, the Right Honourable Montgomery Scott.
(Hey, it's possible. We don't know what he did with himself after he left the Enterprise-D!)
Missed the Merak II reference -- thanks. But if he says "Federation orders," that is by necessity a synonym for orders from Starfleet. Starfleet is the Federation military, and as such orders to an individual starship would have to come down the Starfleet chain of command.
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