Country's in Star Trek

[John Vasiliou]

Countries in Star Trek

We know they still exist...but are they meant to be in name only or do they still run their own affairs to some degree?

 

[The Wormhole]

Name only, is my guess. Oh I'm sure they may operate within Earth in much the same capacity as provinces or states operate within their respective countries, but that would be it.

 

[JonBaas]

My take is that it's much like the present day United States. You have a Federal government, which then has authority over the 50 state governments.

In the Star Trek Universe, there's probably some sort of united Earth government, representing all of the various nations. This united Earth government is then, in turn, subject to all UFP mandates since Earth is a member of the United Federation of Planets.

-Jon

 

[barnaclelapse]

What's always surprising to me is that they were able to rebuild and move towards something like that after World War III or whatever the hell it was called.

 

[indolover]

they probably only exist in ethnic/cultural terms, and not as nation-states. Earth may be the equivalent of, say, California is in the US in real life. It has autonomy, but not complete control over its own affairs. Also, the lowest tier of Federation government may be continental government. I can't imagine Los Angeles have its own local government, then a California state government, then a continental North America government, then an Earth government, then a Federation government. It would be too many tiers to handle.

 

[MikeS]

Also, the lowest tier of Federation government may be continental government. I can't imagine Los Angeles have its own local government, then a California state government, then a continental North America government, then an Earth government, then a Federation government. It would be too many tiers to handle.

Not really. Local decision-making should influence the decisions of the greater "whole". "Bottom-up management" is true democracy in action. Anything else would be dictatorial.

 

[indolover]

that's not how a federal system works.

A state has total autonomy in areas in which it has purview in. The federal government cannot touch these, nor can the state government interfere in the federal government's actions. Too many tiers in a federal system is overkill.

 

[Shatnertage]

There's got to be some balance. Do they coordinate trash pickup in Culver City from Federation headquarters? There's got to be some kind of local government. And the responsibilities of different "tiers" don't really overlap. Your local municipality doesn't deliver the mail, and the federal government doesn't inspect restaurants like the local health department.

It's be interesting to imagine how local political units function, and what kind of autonomy they have.

 

[AJBryant]

Maybe I'm just picky, but I can't believe no one's mentioned this yet:

The word is COUNTRIES.

 

[T'Girl]

The word is COUNTRIES.

But is the Federation the "country." Or is Earth, Vulcan, other members etc, the "countries," with the Federation (despite the name) more of a co-op?

According to a display sign on DS9, Vulcan has a embassy with Bajor. Countries have embassies.

Maybe the relationships are really different and really complex.

 

[Galileo7]

Name only, is my guess. Oh I'm sure they may operate within Earth in much the same capacity as provinces or states operate within their respective countries, but that would be it.

That sounds right.

 

[Kaziarl]

The one or two times we saw the Federation Council it seemed like just that, a council. A group of different powers that tries to work together from time to time, kind of like how I imagine the UN is supposed to work. Of course, not having a political degree I could be completely wrong on that.

Perhaps each race is able to run things within their own borders their own way, and anything that crosses borders (say the Andorians decide that Tellar looks like a good vacation home.) thats when the Federation and Starfleet steps in?

 

[george1089]

Re: Countries in Star Trek

We know they still exist...but are they meant to be in name only or do they still run their own affairs to some degree?

I don't think so...

 

[neozeks]

According to a display sign on DS9, Vulcan has a embassy with Bajor. Countries have embassies.

Yeah, that's a good point - but you know, even if I'm not exactly sure how that would work under international law, I have a feeling that even when/if the EU becomes a true state, it's member states will still retain their foreign missions (and missions between themselves). Maybe they'll even continue calling them embassies, for historic and traditional reasons.

So that's how I see the Federation, it's somewhere on the scale between the EU and the USA. It's a state in it's own right (it has an unified military, president etc) but still retains some elements of an EU-like union/confederation.

The one or two times we saw the Federation Council it seemed like just that, a council. A group of different powers that tries to work together from time to time, kind of like how I imagine the UN is supposed to work.

Except the UN has no elected President - the Secretary General is something very different - or a miltary of it's own.

As for just how the lower tiers of government are organized I definitely agree local governments need to exist. But we have to remember the Federation is huge. There might exist thousands of different systems in it's various subdivisions. The way United Earth organizes it's government may not be the same as the way the Vulcans do it. Or the way the future-USA does it may not be the same way the future-EU does it, etc.

 

[Sci]

The one or two times we saw the Federation Council it seemed like just that, a council. A group of different powers that tries to work together from time to time, kind of like how I imagine the UN is supposed to work. Of course, not having a political degree I could be completely wrong on that.

Well, I do have a degree in political science, and I can tell you the following things:

1. A "council" is just a deliberative body of any sort, and is not inherently comprised of representatives from multiple sovereign states the way you seem to be implying. A council can be a governing body for a private organization like a church, or it can be the legislature of a city, or it can be the legislature of a sovereign state, or it can be a governing body of an intergovernmental organization.

2. The Federation government possesses all of the traits of true state, not a mere intergovernmental organization like the U.N. It had an elected President (ST4, ST6, "Homefront"/"Paradise Lost"), it made foreign policy for its members (ST6), it had a legislature that could make binding law in its territory ("Force of Nature"), it had territory ("The Best of Both Worlds"), it had a military ("Court-Martial"), it had law enforcement (Federation Security, seen in ST3), and it could declare war ("Errand of Mercy") and martial law ("Homefront"). None of these things can the U.N. do. The United Nations is not a sovereign state; the Federation is.

* * *

As for the existence of Earth countries within the Federation...

First off, bear in mind that we've been using the terms "country," "nation," and "state" interchangeably here, but they're not the same thing. A "country" is a distinct area of land. A "nation" is a group of people who share a common identity and, typically, a common language, history, and descent (real or imagined). A "state" is a sovereign political entity possessing its own distinct territory over which it has exclusive legal jurisdiction to make law and use force.

Thus, Earth's countries will always exist so long as Earth does, just because the land is still there.

But, to get a bit more serious, there's no reason at all that the sovereign states that exist on Earth today could not continue to exist as non-sovereign political subdivisions of United Earth within the larger Federation. The levels of government for, say, someone living in Toronto could look like this:

UNITED FEDERATION OF PLANETS
President, Council

UNITED EARTH
President, Prime Minister, Parliament

CANADA
Monarch, Governor-General, Prime Minister, Parliament

PROVINCE OF ONTARIO
Monarch in Right of Ontario, Lieutenant Governor, Premier, Legislative Assembly

CITY OF TORONTO
Mayor, City Council
​

For someone living in, say, the City of ShiKahr on Vulcan, it might look like this:

UNITED FEDERATION OF PLANETS
President, Council

CONFEDERACY OF VULCAN
Administrator, Council

PROVINCE OF PELASHT
Minister-President, Assembly

CITY OF SHIKAHR
Mayor, Council
​

Meanwhile, for someone living in, say, the capital of Andor, Laibok, it might just be:

UNITED FEDERATION OF PLANETS
President, Council

ANDORIAN EMPIRE
Chancellor, Parliament Andoria

CITY OF LAIBOK
Mayor, Council
​

 

[MikeS]

^Thank-you.

 

[Satyrquaze]

This just reminds me of the reference to the Russian city of Leningrad in STIV.

 

[Sci]

This just reminds me of the reference to the Russian city of Leningrad in STIV.

Actually, the reference still works. They never explicitly call it the city, and in real life, the oblast (province) that St. Petersburg is in is still called Leningrad oblast. We can assume it's still called that in 2285.

 

[MikeS]

that's not how a federal system works.

A state has total autonomy in areas in which it has purview in. The federal government cannot touch these, nor can the state government interfere in the federal government's actions. Too many tiers in a federal system is overkill.

I was not talking about a federal system. There are other forms of democracy, not just the "American model".

 

[Temis the Vorta]

My take is that it's much like the present day United States. You have a Federal government, which then has authority over the 50 state governments.

Yeah I think Roddenberry's schema was:

20th C America = 23rd C Earth
20th C Earth government (UN) = 23rd C Federation government
20th C Commies = 23rd C Klingons & Rommies

Everything has been bumped up one notch in organizational structure but otherwise is still familiar.

This just reminds me of the reference to the Russian city of Leningrad in STIV.

In the 23rd C, "Leningrad" is not a city. It's an elaborate and extremely popular theme park built around 20th C Communism, and is the Happiest Place on Earth. Chekov has many cherished childhood memories of visiting Leningrad.