161 member seems far to little for UFP

[Lorna]

Well, I still don't think it's subjugation. There's no coercion involved, the newly-warp civilizations become protectorates or members of their own will. Unless offering and providing help in mutual interest is coercion. I think it's not, as insidious as it may be.

But are they sure it's their own will or do they just think it is?

I mean put yourself in their shoes. You've just achieved warp and you find out that there are races out there, powerful empires that have hundreds of years more advanced tech than you and they're not all very nice. This Federation comes along and offers you protection and plenty of other tasty bits of help how are you going to respond?
I for one would feel obliged to join this Federation. In fact I would not see much choice to be honest considering the weak position my civilisation is in and that this Federation is all around me.

 

[T'Girl]

This Federation comes along and offers you protection and plenty of other tasty bits of help how are you going to respond?

The Marshall Islands, Micronesia and Palau were probably better off as America territories, America treats it's territories pretty nice. Instead they petitioned for independence and it was granted (Two in 1986, one in 1994). They are now sovereign countries.

... civilizations inside Federation space are vastly better off than the ones outside.

The civilization could have it both ways most likely. If Omaha were independent, it would receive protection from the US just by being enclosed by it. The Federation claimed space would have a vast interior that is far from borders and bad people.

And a civilization has other options besides joining the Federation, alliances are always good.

 

[Sci]

Just look at the Baku in Insurrection. The Federation believed that they were pre-warp and yet that planet and the entire Briar patch was located within Federation space. So how many other pre-warp planets have been silently subjugated into Federation territory?

The impression I always got from the canon -- and this idea is also explicitly established in the novel Prime Directive by Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stevens -- is that the Federation considers those states to be enclaves within its territory. That is, the Federation's borders stop at the edge of that pre-warp world's solar system, and the Federation regards that solar system as being the exclusive legal territory of the people of that pre-warp world (and, eventually, of whatever planetary state is founded to unite that world), to be held in trust by the Federation -- protected from outside aggression and/or exploitation, so no Ferengi are allowed to come along and mine their asteroid belt or whatever -- until such time as that world makes First Contact with the Federation and/or begins exploring/asserting its ownership of its star system.

In other words -- Ba'ku wasn't Federation territory, but it was surrounded by Federation territory on all sides. A bit like, say, San Marino, which is surrounded on all sides by Italy.

And the other key point was that once they began to assert themselves on the interstellar stage, the Federation always respected their sovereignty and would never try to force itself or Membership onto these new warp powers.

Well, I still don't think it's subjugation. There's no coercion involved, the newly-warp civilizations become protectorates or members of their own will. Unless offering and providing help in mutual interest is coercion. I think it's not, as insidious as it may be.

But are they sure it's their own will or do they just think it is?

I mean put yourself in their shoes. You've just achieved warp and you find out that there are races out there, powerful empires that have hundreds of years more advanced tech than you and they're not all very nice. This Federation comes along and offers you protection and plenty of other tasty bits of help how are you going to respond?
I for one would feel obliged to join this Federation. In fact I would not see much choice to be honest considering the weak position my civilisation is in and that this Federation is all around me.

I'm sure the Federation makes it very clear to these newly-established worlds that they have no obligation to join the Federation, nor even to ally with the Federation or become a protectorate. The Federation probably says, quite clearly, "Hey, we kept the neighbors off your back yard while you were pre-warp. We'll keep helping you if you want, but we'll also back off if you want. It's completely your choice, and you have no obligations to us other than not to attack us. It's up to you -- we respect your sovereignty."

This Federation comes along and offers you protection and plenty of other tasty bits of help how are you going to respond?

The Marshall Islands, Micronesia and Palau were probably better off as America territories, America treats it's territories pretty nice.

Does that include the time American troops established concentration camps in the newly-conquered Philippines?

Instead they petitioned for independence and it was granted (Two in 1986, one in 1994). They are now sovereign countries.

And it's a good and admirable thing that the United States grew out of its imperial phase and recognized that those nations have the right of self-determination, and therefore of independence.

 

[C.E. Evans]

I just wanna know where we got this exact 161 number from? All Picard said was "over 150 worlds," IIRC...

 

[Sci]

I just wanna know where we got this exact 161 number from? All Picard said was "over 150 worlds," IIRC...

I dunno. In the novels, the Federation recently admitted its 155th Member.

 

[T'Girl]

I just wanna know where we got this exact 161 number from? All Picard said was "over 150 worlds," IIRC...

Well Lily asked how many worlds in the federation, to which Picard replied over 150.

Lily didn't exactly ask about the number of members, and the term worlds can have a few different meanings besides referring to a planetary body, or a political unit.

Just look at the Baku in Insurrection. The Federation believed that they were pre-warp and yet that planet and the entire Briar patch was located within Federation space.

Ba'ku wasn't Federation territory, but it was surrounded by Federation territory on all sides. A bit like, say, San Marino, which is surrounded on all sides by Italy.

Dougherty: The Son'a have developed a procedure to collect the metaphasic particles from the planets rings.
Picard: A planet in Federation space.
Dougherty: That's right. We have the planet.

What's interesting about Insurrection is that over the course of the movie at no point do any Baku declare that they believe the planet to be theirs, that came solely from Picard. The Admiral believes it to belong to the Federation. The Son'a, even through they lived on the planet at some point, never claim any degree of ownership either.

It's possible that the Baku knew that the planet wasn't theirs. The Baku are actual very passive on the whole matter, the Baku leaders never even request to speak to the Admiral on the subject. Or to directly communicate with the Federation council.

The Federation believed that they were pre-warp

Wrong. Picard believed the Baku were pre-warp. Both the Federation Council and Admiral Dougherty were fully aware that the Baku were a (previously) warp capable colony from elsewhere.

Instead they petitioned for independence and it was granted (Two in 1986, one in 1994). They are now sovereign countries.

And it's a good and admirable thing that the United States grew out of its imperial phase and recognized that those nations have the right of self-determination, and therefore of independence.

This would seem to be a strange statement on you part, given your previous assertions that neither South Carolina or the Confederacy had any right of self-determination or a ability to obtain independence from America.

 

[Sci]

Ba'ku wasn't Federation territory, but it was surrounded by Federation territory on all sides. A bit like, say, San Marino, which is surrounded on all sides by Italy.

Dougherty: The Son'a have developed a procedure to collect the metaphasic particles from the planets rings.
Picard: A planet in Federation space.
Dougherty: That's right. We have the planet.

If you look at the full post, you might recall that I'm admittedly engaging in speculation about how to reconcile that line with the logical impossibility of a non-imperialist Federation claiming ownership of a planet that was already inhabited by a foreign culture before the Federation was formed.

And, no, I really don't think there's any other way to reconcile it. We have to assume that Dougherty is speaking informally, in terms of the Federation's control of access to Ba'ku from the space surrounding its star system, because otherwise this means that the Federation deliberately claimed ownership of an already-inhabited world whose government did not consent to such ownership -- that, in other words, the Federation engaged in imperialism.

Instead they petitioned for independence and it was granted (Two in 1986, one in 1994). They are now sovereign countries.

And it's a good and admirable thing that the United States grew out of its imperial phase and recognized that those nations have the right of self-determination, and therefore of independence.

This would seem to be a strange statement on you part, given your previous assertions that neither South Carolina or the Confederacy had any right of self-determination or a ability to obtain independence from America.

One, I question whether or not a state that had already chosen to yield its sovereignty when it ratified the Constitution can revoke that decision. I'm open to the possibility, contingent only upon the second point I am about to make:

I don't think you can reasonably claim that the peoples of South Carolina or the rest of the seceding states expressed their will to self-determination when one-third of their population was enslaved and thus not given a voice in their state legislatures.

Now, if every single South Carolinian and every single Southerner had had a vote and had had equal representation in their state legislatures, then we could have talked about their right to self-determination in 1861. But as the situation actually existed, their votes to secede were not expressions of their peoples' self-determination -- it was merely an instrument of power and oppression pushed upon their people by their wealthy, slave-holding elite.

Either way, it's a very different situation than deliberately invading and occupying a foreign culture.

 

[C.E. Evans]

I just wanna know where we got this exact 161 number from? All Picard said was "over 150 worlds," IIRC...

Well Lily asked how many worlds in the federation, to which Picard replied over 150.

Lily didn't exactly ask about the number of members, and the term worlds can have a few different meanings besides referring to a planetary body, or a political unit.

But that still doesn't answer where we got this exact 161 figure from for this thread though, so it's still just some fan-chosen number here as it could really be any number from 150-199, IMO...

 

[T'Girl]

this means that the Federation deliberately claimed ownership of an already-inhabited world whose government did not consent to such ownership

This makes the assumption that the Baku have anything which could be construed as a government, or perhaps I should say a planetary government. The Baku do seem to possess individuals who are (informally?) group leaders. However that doesn't make them town mayors or village chiefs. So, hypothetically if consent were to be given, exactly from whom would it come?

There is also the question of, can just six hundred people lay claim to an entire planet? The Baku seem to be clustered in a relatively small geographical area, maybe only one valley. A case might be made to their claiming that valley and the watershed surrounding it. But not more. I've raised this question in other threads on planetary colonization in general.

While the Baku colonized the valley years prior to the formation of the Federation, the Federation has claimed sovereignty of the space the star system occupies, the Son'a (former inhabitants) seem to grudging acknowledge this as a established fact. Again the Baku themselves never verbally claim the entire planet. It would seem in the face of it that the planet itself is the territory of the Federation, a territorial possession with a small Baku settlement on it.

So while the harvesting of the particles in the rings will render the surface uninhabitable for generations, and that condition will extend to the Baku's valley, the planet being damaged is Federation.

------------------------

Oh, and Merry Christmas Sci, I do respect you positions even if I do not share them.

E tenha muito feliz ano novo -- vá com Deus

 

[T'Girl]

But that still doesn't answer where we got this exact 161 figure from for this thread though, so it's still just some fan-chosen number here as it could really be any number from 150-199, IMO...

It would seem that the two Koreas were the 160th and the 161st countries to become members of United Nations. They were both admitted on the same day and I'm not sure which one is actual the 161st. Perhaps the person who wrote the encyclopedia entry was making a oblige reference to that United Nations membership event.

-----------

Merry Christmas C. E. Evens

Eu desejo isso Pai Natal tem trazido você muitos brinquedos -- vá com Deus

 

[C.E. Evans]

Merry Christmas, T'Girl.

As they say on Romulus, "jolan tru."

 

[Sci]

I hope no one minds a bit of thread necromancy. I kept meaning to come back and just kept forgetting!

this means that the Federation deliberately claimed ownership of an already-inhabited world whose government did not consent to such ownership

This makes the assumption that the Baku have anything which could be construed as a government, or perhaps I should say a planetary government. The Baku do seem to possess individuals who are (informally?) group leaders.

Then they're the Ba'ku government -- which is simply a system of collective decision-making. Under the Prime Directive's ("Redemption") and Federation Charter's ("Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges") rules against interfering with the internal affairs of foreign cultures, the Federation has no business telling this foreign culture that their governing system is insufficiently formalized to be valid.

There is also the question of, can just six hundred people lay claim to an entire planet?

Why not? They were there first, they're a foreign culture, and no one else whom we know of claimed it before them. What right would the Federation have under the Prime Directive to claim a world already inhabited by a foreign culture?

While the Baku colonized the valley years prior to the formation of the Federation, the Federation has claimed sovereignty of the space the star system occupies, the Son'a (former inhabitants) seem to grudging acknowledge this as a established fact. Again the Baku themselves never verbally claim the entire planet. It would seem in the face of it that the planet itself is the territory of the Federation, a territorial possession with a small Baku settlement on it.

If you accept that premise, then that necessarily means accepting that the Federation has engaged in imperialism.

So, either the Federation is an imperialist power that claims ownership of planets already inhabited by foreign cultures who do not consent to Federation ownership...

... or Admiral Dougherty wasn't speaking formally or making a claim of Federation sovereignty over the Ba'ku planet.

Oh, and Merry Christmas Sci, I do respect you positions even if I do not share them.

A belated Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you as well!

 

[Solarbaby]

You know what? I'm not sure where I got that number from now. The number is definitely stuck in my mind as being established on TV. I just checked my encyclopedia and it only says approximately 150 worlds. I'm 99% certain I have seen it in an episode but can't remember now. I'll try and figure it out

 

[Sci]

I just checked my encyclopedia and it only says approximately 150 worlds. I'm 99% certain I have seen it in an episode but can't remember now. I'll try and figure it out

Picard refers to the Federation as having over 150 worlds in Star Trek: First Contact. I don't recall 161 ever being established on TV. The novel Articles of the Federation, set 7 years later, features the Federation welcoming its 155th Member, Koa.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Well, the Federation was established in 2161...