Watching "In the Flesh" after a decade

[BillJ]

Secondly, you don't think it's possible for someone to enjoy a show yet at the same time have some issues with things that were mishandled?

Pretty much describes my 35 year relationship with Star Trek. And trust me I've seen alot that's been mishandled!

Still waiting for Anwar to answer Guy Gardeners question about the Borg never seeing a knife (or bullets for that matter) prior to Star Trek: First Contact.

 

[zar]

they were impervious to all of the ENT-D's weapons except one phaser that lasted two seconds before it too became useless. All intents and purposes, invulnerable to the entire CONCEPT of phasers and torpedoes, for every episode of TNG they were in after "Q Who?"

Except that's all just exaggeration. You know, I have totally lost track of what it is exactly that you're trying to argue. Half the time it's as if you switch sides, yet you manage to still be ridiculously wrong. What are you trying to say? That the Borg are invincible? Or do TNG fans just "make them out to be"? Do the Borg adapt or don't they? What does all this have to do with trees and the concept of nature?

If they hadn't made any Borg episodes beyond BOBW and not made it clear that the entire Borg species lived on that one Cube then they still failed to wrap up the story properly since the implication of there being more Borg out there would still be there but with no resolution beyond one encounter.

Think about what I said. Tell me how this is any different than the Doomsday episode. They did nothing at all to "make it clear" that the "entire" Doomsday race's weapons consisted of that "one" machine; on the contrary they closed the episode with a direct hint that it may not be. Like I said, you could have used this exact same line of reasoning to accuse TOS of failing to resolve the story if there had been future Doomsday stories.

Every single weapon they used in FC was adapted to

The space battle went on for hours (off-screen) and the weapons did damage to the Cube the entire time. TNG showed that the Borg adapt to weaponry within minutes, so if they could still adapt as well as before then the fleet's weapons would've all been useless after 5 minutes. They were doing damage all the way through. This may have been due to better special effects, or its because the Borg on a ship-level cannot adapt to anything thrown at them within minutes anymore.

We are shown no evidence that it was receiving damage "the entire time" or "all the way through", the only thing we are told is the fact that the cube is damaged. Which makes perfect sense since this is the first battle with the Borg since Starfleet has had time to upgrade its weapons, and thus have an advantage the Borg has not yet adapted to. Don't you remember when the Defiant was introduced in DS9 we were told that the sole purpose for its existence was to defeat the Borg? Unsurprisingly, we see the Defiant in the next Borg battle, First Contact, doing damage. Given our limited information, and considering the fact that we see them adapt to EVERY OTHER weapon throughout the rest of the movie, it's most logical to assume that the Borg DID adapt to the Defiant's weapons eventually, otherwise they could have already been defeated by the time Enterprise got there.

What does that even mean? You're hurting my brain.

That story-telling-wise, when dealing with writing a Borg episode, you cannot even use an idea more than once without "ruining" or "emasculating" the Borg. Once you use one "Hack" story, you can't do any more regardless of how different they might be. Once you use a "Natural Phenomena" story, you can't use any others no matter how different they might be.

That's how overpowered and overblown the TNG fan's opinions of the Borg were.

No, that's how overblown you represent everyone's opinions you don't agree with. Everyone in this thread thinks it's a ridiculous concept. YOU are the only one hawking it. Every depiction of the Borg in TNG is the very opposite: they ALWAYS have weaknesses, even to slight changes within the same type of weapon. I've not met a single TNG fan whose opinion of the Borg is as deluded as yours. (I'm sure some exist, but not enough to be any kind of representative sample.)

 

[Saito S]

Pretty much describes my 35 year relationship with Star Trek. And trust me I've seen alot that's been mishandled!

I think we ALL have. It's one of the things that unites us as Trek fans: we gripe. But seriously, pointing out the flaws, logic gaps, etc. IS part of the whole experience, really.

Still waiting for Anwar to answer Guy Gardeners question about the Borg never seeing a knife (or bullets for that matter) prior to Star Trek: First Contact.

He can't answer it because there is no good answer.

If the Borg could adapt to "concepts", they would have LONG since become completely invulnerable to all of the Ent-D's weapons before even "Q Who?". The Borg have already assimilated thousands of species by then. There is NO POSSIBILITY that they would not, during all those centuries of fighting, subduing, and assimilating other species, have encountered scores of weapons - energy, explosive, kinetic, melee. If they could adapt to concepts, NOTHING would have been able to hurt them at all in the slightest even once throughout the entirety of the Star Trek time frame.

Infantry maybe (and that makes sense, the personal shields of a Borg Drone can't be as strong as the Ships' shields),

Having different aspects of the Borg collective have shields with different levels of pure strength is incompatible with the (insane) notion that the Borg adapt to "concepts and ideas", and not simply to a specific form of damage.

but ship-wise they were impervious to all of the ENT-D's weapons except one phaser that lasted two seconds before it too became useless. All intents and purposes, invulnerable to the entire CONCEPT of phasers and torpedoes, for every episode of TNG they were in after "Q Who?"

No. You are wrong. I'm not going to waste time writing an essay about why you are wrong, because it's blindingly obvious. No one on the Trek creative team ever intended for the Borg to adapt to concepts. No single Borg ep or movie presents even a single shred of evidence that the Borg adapt to concepts. The fandom as a whole never believed that the Borg adapt to concepts. I have NEVER encountered this idea in any way, shape, or form until right now, in this thread, from Anwar. You are wrong.

As for the rest... Alright, I'm gonna do this huge, detailed rebuttal thing once. No more responses on these points from me after this. This is ridiculous. (Yes, I know, I'm feeding the ridiculousness by responding, but I can't help myself; I still find this all somehow entertaining. )

The ENT-D's weapons were adapted to within minutes of their first battle with the Borg in "Q Who?" and aside from one random phaser frequency in BOBW they remained useless. The battle in FC went on for hours yet the Borg never adapted to their weapons the entire time? Every shot and torpedo hit caused damage.

There is one very visible shot during the FC battle of an Akira class firing a phaser beam into the cube; there are NO visual effects for the impact. The ship just eats the beam. So it wasn't "every shot."

Beyond that, I would point out that in "Q Who?", many of the later torpedo shots that did "nothing" (as in, the dialog made it clear that zero damage was done) still hit the cube with a visual "explosion" special effect. So to assume that every shot that hits the cube in FC that has an explosion effect MUST be doing real damage is silly. The implication in in "Q Who?" and BoBW was that some shots were completely nullified, but some did SOME small amount of damage, but it was such a tiny amount, that compared to the Borg's regenerative capability, it was irrelevant. Ergo, "doing damage" isn't the issue. Doing damage that MATTERS is the issue. And nothing in FC goes against that concept: given that this huge fleet has been fighting the Borg for HOURS and still has only succeeded in doing moderate damage, it holds with "Q Who?" and BoBW.

Furthermore, this WAS an entire fleet, hand-picked to fight off the Borg. They DID allude to developing new "anti-Borg" weapons during BoBW (and the Defiant herself was conceived as such). So it stands to reason that even the standard "phasers and photons" weapons being fired during FC are NOT exactly the same, functionally, as the Ent-D's weapons: they are both more powerful and specifically tailored to be harder for the Borg to adapt to. They WOULD eventually adapt, but if these new weapons are able to more rapidly adjust to new frequencies, and for longer, it would mean that - with an entire fleet firing - the Borg wouldn't COMPLETELY adapt to the Starfleet weapons for quite some time (possibly not until long after the scene where the Ent-E arrived, had the Ent-E NOT arrived and the battle continued as it had been). Plus, while the fleet was doing a hell of a lot better than in BoBW, they weren't winning. Picard's link to the Borg proved vital to destroying the cube without taking even heavier losses than they already had. The "weak spot" seemed to me to represent a section that had LOST its adaptive shields. What the Borg were doing at that moment was trying to cover it up so that Starfleet wouldn't detect it - and they succeeded; none of the Starfleet ships could detect the massive gap in the Borg's defenses. Picard "heard" them discussing this gap, and thus was able to have the fleet target the gap, possibly hitting a vital and/or highly volatile internal component directly. The ability to adapt or not didn't matter in that instance, because the shields covering that area had collapsed, which is what MADE it a weak spot, and why Picard targeted it.
This isn't JUST my idea, by the way: the FC novelization suggests all of this, if memory serves.

In BoBW, that cube adapted to the weapons of the Ent-D. The weapons being fired by the FC fleet are better, and slightly different. And no, they would not be useless due to the Borg having adapted to the concept of phasers/torps because the Borg DON'T DO THAT.

Furthermore (again), it also stands to reason that Voyager - given it's launch date - would have up-to-date weapons. Thus, they could defend themselves against a Borg ship effectively FAR longer than the Ent-D in 2366 could. This is why I've never said that Voyager shouldn't be able to even DAMAGE Borg ships with their standard weapons. Just that they shouldn't be able to easily beat them. My own analysis above indicates that Voyager should do BETTER in straight combat than the Ent-D of 2366-67 did, so I have no problem with that. But "able to put up a fight" and "beating the Borg easily" are two different things.

And besides, my main complaint about the Borg on Voyager has always been an ATTITUDE, a sort of "Borg? Oh yeah, so we might have to fight the Borg. Ok, whatever." feel, that works for lesser villains but not for Borg.

Whew!

That story-telling-wise, when dealing with writing a Borg episode, you cannot even use an idea more than once without "ruining" or "emasculating" the Borg. Once you use one "Hack" story, you can't do any more regardless of how different they might be. Once you use a "Natural Phenomena" story, you can't use any others no matter how different they might be.

False. This has nothing to do with how the Borg were conceived, how they were depicted on screen, or sound writing practice in general.

That's how overpowered and overblown the TNG fan's opinions of the Borg were.

Nobody believes this but you.

 

[Guy Gardener]

The Borg were not over powered. There were exactly how powered they should be since they had been in space for almost a thousand years longer than the humans.

There has to be several transitional stages between space gods like the Organians or the Metrons and your bog standard warp capable civilization of humanoids. Their speed is a thousand times waster than Federation technology, so why shouldn't their shields, arms and philosophy be a thousand years ahead of the federation too?

This is what I wanted from Enterprise. Archer meeting up with aliens who were as powerful and sophisticated as perhaps Voyager and it was he who was nearly 300 years behind the curve. He shouldn't have been able to compete blow for blow and neither should janeway when she's trying to strong arm the ever elder races.

Besides it forces our heroes to use the weapon between their ears.

 

[Anwar]

Except that's all just exaggeration. You know, I have totally lost track of what it is exactly that you're trying to argue. Half the time it's as if you switch sides, yet you manage to still be ridiculously wrong. What are you trying to say? That the Borg are invincible? Or do TNG fans just "make them out to be"? Do the Borg adapt or don't they? What does all this have to do with trees and the concept of nature?

I'm trying to say that TNG fans had such an overblown image of the Borg and how powerful they were that nothing VOY could've done with them (since they're just one tiny ship on their own) would be pleasing to them.

Think about what I said. Tell me how this is any different than the Doomsday episode. They did nothing at all to "make it clear" that the "entire" Doomsday race's weapons consisted of that "one" machine; on the contrary they closed the episode with a direct hint that it may not be. Like I said, you could have used this exact same line of reasoning to accuse TOS of failing to resolve the story if there had been future Doomsday stories.

Spock's random ramblings pretty much being disproven is NOT the same as Guinan's direct knowledge about the Borg. Spock had no basis for saying what he did beyond "Huh, what if?" while Guinan is "This is exactly what will happen."

Given our limited information, and considering the fact that we see them adapt to EVERY OTHER weapon throughout the rest of the movie, it's most logical to assume that the Borg DID adapt to the Defiant's weapons eventually, otherwise they could have already been defeated by the time Enterprise got there.

If they had adapted, there wouldn't have still been a battle going on by the time it got to Earth.

Every depiction of the Borg in TNG is the very opposite: they ALWAYS have weaknesses, even to slight changes within the same type of weapon. I've not met a single TNG fan whose opinion of the Borg is as deluded as yours. (I'm sure some exist, but not enough to be any kind of representative sample.)

Right, that's why they keep saying that VOY emasculated the Borg. Because the Borg aren't invincible.

If the Borg could adapt to "concepts", they would have LONG since become completely invulnerable to all of the Ent-D's weapons before even "Q Who?". The Borg have already assimilated thousands of species by then. There is NO POSSIBILITY that they would not, during all those centuries of fighting, subduing, and assimilating other species, have encountered scores of weapons - energy, explosive, kinetic, melee. If they could adapt to concepts, NOTHING would have been able to hurt them at all in the slightest even once throughout the entirety of the Star Trek time frame

OR, they just can't adapt to everything and they are beatable by concepts that will ALWAYS destroy them the exact same way. Some guys will have some regular weapon that will always blast them to scrap in one shot.

So what's it going to be? Make them uber-tough, or make them destroyable through repeatable methods?

Having different aspects of the Borg collective have shields with different levels of pure strength is incompatible with the (insane) notion that the Borg adapt to "concepts and ideas", and not simply to a specific form of damage

Their ships can adapt to concepts, the drones can't because they are inherently weaker.

No. You are wrong. I'm not going to waste time writing an essay about why you are wrong, because it's blindingly obvious. No one on the Trek creative team ever intended for the Borg to adapt to concepts. No single Borg ep or movie presents even a single shred of evidence that the Borg adapt to concepts. The fandom as a whole never believed that the Borg adapt to concepts.

Then they should just deal with VOY not needing some random contrivance to defeat them.

But "able to put up a fight" and "beating the Borg easily" are two different things

Beating them is the only option in a Borg story, since you can't run from them and they don't just give up chases.

And besides, my main complaint about the Borg on Voyager has always been an ATTITUDE, a sort of "Borg? Oh yeah, so we might have to fight the Borg. Ok, whatever." feel, that works for lesser villains but not for Borg

This is true, but after facing the kind of stuff they faced up to that point the Borg wouldn't be as scary anymore.

 

[RyuRoots]

Since all you're doing is parroting yourself without making any sense or proof of your claims about the fandom or production of the show and ignoring what the shows themselves did (as always), I'm done with this one. See you next derailment.

 

[Saito S]

If they had adapted, there wouldn't have still been a battle going on by the time it got to Earth.

OR... they adapted. Then the Defiant changed frequencies. Perhaps multiple times during the battle, utilizing weapons tech that wasn't available during BoBW and may in fact have specifically been designed with the Borg in mind. Like I suggested in that huge deconstruction in my last post. I knew I shouldn't have bothered.

Right, that's why they keep saying that VOY emasculated the Borg. Because the Borg aren't invincible.

What?

OR, they just can't adapt to everything and they are beatable by concepts that will ALWAYS destroy them the exact same way. Some guys will have some regular weapon that will always blast them to scrap in one shot.

So what's it going to be? Make them uber-tough, or make them destroyable through repeatable methods?

Their ships can adapt to concepts, the drones can't because they are inherently weaker.

Then they should just deal with VOY not needing some random contrivance to defeat them.

Beating them is the only option in a Borg story, since you can't run from them and they don't just give up chases.

This argument has been beaten to death in other threads, so I'm not going to bother.

This is true, but after facing the kind of stuff they faced up to that point the Borg wouldn't be as scary anymore.

Oh yeah, I'm sure the likes of the Kazon and Vidiians would really make the Borg seem like a cakewalk.

Around and around and around we go... When continuing the argument would mean me repeating myself to this degree, it stops being entertaining. So I'm out for now.

 

[zar]

Spock's random ramblings pretty much being disproven...

Disproven how? Oh right, because the writers (TV writers, at least -- not novel writers) decided not to keep using them. So what if they'd stopped using the Borg?

...is NOT the same as Guinan's direct knowledge about the Borg. Spock had no basis for saying what he did beyond "Huh, what if?" while Guinan is "This is exactly what will happen."

And it DID happen. It's obvious that BOBW is what Guinan was referring to. At the beginning of BOBW the Admiral says "we've known they'd be coming for over a year now". This is obviously a reference to the foreshadowing we got from Guinan in Q Who.

And secondly, Guinan has no "direct knowledge" anyway. She said she wasn't there. She only heard stories of what happened. Watch the episode again if you don't believe me.

If they had adapted, there wouldn't have still been a battle going on by the time it got to Earth.

And why the hell not? By the time they got there it was a losing battle. Worf's ready to make a desperate kamikaze run. There's no evidence that they are still doing any appreciable damage anymore at that point until Picard finally takes over and tells them where to shoot.

Right, that's why they keep saying that VOY emasculated the Borg. Because the Borg aren't invincible.

I'm honestly fascinated by what is going on in your brain. Someone says "VOY emasculated the Borg" a month ago and you have somehow managed to convince yourself that that means that they literally believe the Borg were literally invincible in TNG and that they are literally capable of adapting to any generalized abstract concept.

You actually believe that you know we think this.

You should be studied.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Have you seen TNG Parallels Zar?

they showed an alternate reality where the Borg had won at Wolf 359.

Captain Riker was existing in a state of sustained terror.

The last Captain on the last ship.

The Borg vs. The federation (in the beginning before they cowboyed up and started inventing borg specific weapons technology.) was like the Third Reich vs. half the Boy Scouts of America. Half of them. lets not go exaggerating how much of a chance the federation had against the borg in the beginning. I mean seriously, the boy scouts are getting hammered by V2 rockets and buzzbombs protected only thatched leantoo's sharpening their pocket knives and the Scoutmaster general is screaming "where the fuck are my webelos!? I NEED REINFORCEMENTS!

 

[Anwar]

OR... they adapted. Then the Defiant changed frequencies. Perhaps multiple times during the battle, utilizing weapons tech that wasn't available during BoBW and may in fact have specifically been designed with the Borg in mind.

If the Feds can develop weapons like that, which are more effective against the Borg then that still means the Borg aren't at the same level they were at in BOBW. The only difference between that and VOY was that VOY didn't have anything to put at risk beyond the ship itself and it didn't have any cannon fodder fleets to throw at the Borg.

What?

The Borg were "emasculated" by VOY because VOY didn't have them as the Uberfoe they were in BOBW, but FC had already made them less of an Ubefoe even before VOY used them.

This argument has been beaten to death in other threads, so I'm not going to bother.

Did they run away from the Borg in "Q Who?", no Q saved them. Did they run away from the Borg in BOBW? No, they destroyed them. Did they run from the Borg in FC? No, they destroyed them. Did they run from the Borg in "Scorpion"? No, the 8472 destroyed all ships in range first.

See a pattern here? If a ship that's faster than you, and DOES NOT JUST GIVE UP AND LEAVE, is chasing you then it's got to be destroyed. Evading them in some asteroid field wouldn't work because they'd just wait until you left, detect you on the other end and keep chasing you. Or just scan for warp signatures leaving the field and resume the chase once you leave it.

Easy option? Blow up the Borg ship. Problem solved.

So what if they'd stopped using the Borg?

If some guy came along later and simply stated that the entire Borg species lived on that one Cube, nothing. But that's not what they did.

And why the hell not? By the time they got there it was a losing battle. Worf's ready to make a desperate kamikaze run

Because they were still doing damage to the Cube. Actual visible damage. Which is more than what happened at Wolf 359.

I'm honestly fascinated by what is going on in your brain. Someone says "VOY emasculated the Borg" a month ago and you have somehow managed to convince yourself that that means that they literally believe the Borg were literally invincible in TNG and that they are literally capable of adapting to any generalized abstract concept.

That guy couldn't accept that VOY could ever survive a Borg attack without running away like cowards, and seeing how in Trek single ships are always able to go up against massive threats and survive, him saying that he couldn't believe VOY could do the same somehow makes the Borg worse than stuff like the Doomsday Machine or V'Ger, ergo invincible.

 

[zar]

If some guy came along later and simply stated that the entire Borg species lived on that one Cube, nothing. But that's not what they did.

Stop evading the point I've made. You shot yourself in the foot by comparing BOBW to The Doomsday Machine. Everything you've said applies to both episodes, which proves how empty your argument is. No "guy came along" and told you there were no more Doomsday machines either.

Similarly, we were never told or given any reason to believe that there was only one crystalline entity (which wasn't even destroyed).

We were also never told what happened to the machine planet where V'Ger originated.

So are these unresolved stories too? According to your argument, yes. There could still be entire races of crystalline entities, V'Gers, and Doomsday machines; and therefore TMP, TNG, and TOS are "irresponsible".

And why the hell not? By the time they got there it was a losing battle. Worf's ready to make a desperate kamikaze run

Because they were still doing damage to the Cube. Actual visible damage. Which is more than what happened at Wolf 359.

There is no dialog saying they are still doing damage. The only thing we know is that there HAD been damage sometime prior to Picard showing up because when he does he asks for a status report and someone says the cube has "sustained damage".

Your whole argument that First Contact "removed" the Borg's adaptive ability (despite the movie's multiple references to them still having it) hinges entirely on the fact that the special effects team inserted explosions into this scene. Pathetic.

ergo invincible.

No.

 

[Anwar]

So are these unresolved stories too? According to your argument, yes. There could still be entire races of crystalline entities, V'Gers, and Doomsday machines; and therefore TMP, TNG, and TOS are "irresponsible".

The Machine World didn't know about Earth, and was on the other side of the Universe. They were never a big point to begin with.

The Entity WAS killed later on in the show.

The only hint that there could be more machines was random rambling from Spock. That doesn't mean there are definately more DD Machines out there. With the Borg we KNEW there was more than that one Cube.

There is no dialog saying they are still doing damage. The only thing we know is that there HAD been damage sometime prior to Picard showing up because when he does he asks for a status report and someone says the cube has "sustained damage".

They don't need to tell us, we SEE that that torpedoes fired are causing explosions. Which is more than how in BOBW all they caused were small flashes that did nothing. And the Cube had taken "Heavy" damage to the outer hull with power fluctuations throughout the entire power grid (serious internal damage).

Your whole argument that First Contact "removed" the Borg's adaptive ability (despite the movie's multiple references to them still having it) hinges entirely on the fact that the special effects team inserted explosions into this scene. Pathetic.

They never mentioned the Cube adapting to the Fed fleet's weapons, not once. They also showed their weapons doing more damage to that Cube then ANYTHING done to the last one in BOBW. The drones could adapt, the Ship couldn't.

If they were as tough as they were in BOBW then they'd have adapted to the Fleet's entire arsenal within the first few minutes, wiped them all out, and approached Earth unopposed. The Borg ship in BOBW was TOTALLY undamaged by the Fleet. Totally invulnerable to everything they threw at it.

 

[zar]

The Machine World didn't know about Earth

...What? The probe carried information about Earth. The entire plot of the movie depended on the fact that V'Ger DID know about Earth and spent its whole life returning there. We weren't given any evidence (and no guy came along to tell us ) that the machine world dwellers never created any more machines to search for the creators on Earth.

The Entity WAS killed later on in the show.

That's true, I must have been thinking of something else. But you ignored my main point which was that we were never told that that one entity was the only member of its species. You've yet to explain why "one-shots" like this and Doomsday get a free pass to leave us guessing whether there are more of them, while BOBW is "irresponsible" for not adding a line of dialog to establish that the entire Borg threat had been wiped out.

With the Borg we KNEW there was more than that one Cube.

You just keep digging a deeper hole for yourself. First you said the problem is we were never told there was only one cube, but now all of a sudden we KNEW there were more? ? Once again you contradicted yourself. How could your "guy" have come along and said there was only one cube if it was supposedly already definitely established (which it wasn't) that there were more?

They don't need to tell us, we SEE that that torpedoes fired are causing explosions.

Yes, Anwar, that's what happens to torpedoes when they hit something -- they explode.

in BOBW all they caused were small flashes

I can't believe you're actually pursuing this. "Early 90s TV special effects were worse than late 90s feature film special effects, therefore Borg ships can't adapt anymore." I love you man.

If they were as tough as they were in BOBW then they'd have adapted to the Fleet's entire arsenal within the first few minutes

And how do you know this, may I ask? You're talking as if you're an expert on fictional technology.

First of all, I should point out that we were never told that this ISN'T the case... Since the entire battle was offscreen except for the last minute, for all we know, they DID adapt within the first few minutes. Perhaps an entire fleet of quantum torpedoes etc. only takes those few minutes to be able to cause that "heavy damage to the external hull".

Anyway, there is no rule that says it ALWAYS must take exactly "a few minutes" for the Borg to adapt to ANY arbitrary attack, regardless of how the technology works. That makes no logical sense. Like Guy said before, their adaptation is super science, not magic.

 

[Anwar]

If they absolutely HAD to have the Borg show up after BOBW and FC, they should've just explained that they don't usually live on planets and most of them live on the Unimatrix which flies around with a fleet of maybe 30 Cubes. Altogether they would make up the majority of the Borg Collective. Then just have the 8472 destroy the Unimatrix and the entire Borg armada that guards it, and have Seven say VERY clearly that the majority of the entire Borg Collective has been destroyed except for a small remnant somewhere else in the DQ. This removes the Borg threat while leaving them open for a later appearance, but still lowers their threat rating enough that they won't be sending more Cubes to Earth again for likely decades if not centuries. And if someone wants to just kill them all off and be done with it, their lowered power level established in the show means VOY could do it.

 

[Anwar]

...What? The probe carried information about Earth. The entire plot of the movie depended on the fact that V'Ger DID know about Earth and spent its whole life returning there.

The machines didn't recognize organics life as genuine life, otherwise V'Ger itself wouldn't have made the same mistake when it headed home. They just saw V'Ger as a machine meant to collect knowledge so they upgraded it to the point it could learn everything. So they wouldn't care about the lifeforms on Earth if they knew about them.

You just keep digging a deeper hole for yourself. First you said the problem is we were never told there was only one cube, but now all of a sudden we KNEW there were more? ?

I'm saying that an easy way of ending the Borg story would've been to say that there was just one Cube.

Once again you contradicted yourself. How could your "guy" have come along and said there was only one cube if it was supposedly already established (which it wasn't) that there were more?

Because while it was implied that One Cube wasn't their full force, it was handled so sloppy that someone retconning that it WAS their entire species would work out.

I can't believe you're actually pursuing this. "Early 90s TV special effects are worse than late 90s feature film special effects, therefore Borg ships can't adapt anymore." I love you man.

The FX in "Q Who?" at least showed the torpedoes exploding and doing nothing. BOBW didn't even do that. They just flashed with no explosion effect. Like the ship was just absorbing the entire torpedo.

Perhaps an entire fleet of quantum torpedoes etc. only takes those few minutes to be able to cause that "heavy damage to the external hull".

The Borg's regenerative power would've fixed all the damage by then, if the only damage done was hours earlier.

Anyway, there is no rule that says it ALWAYS must take exactly "a few minutes" for the Borg to adapt to ANY arbitrary attack, regardless of how the technology works. That makes no logical sense. Like Guy said before, their adaptation is super science, not magic.

It's how it worked last time they attacked. All attempts at attack were either adapted to in minutes, or just ineffective. How could the Feds advance so much in 6 years compared to the Borg? By that logic, 6 more years they'd do much heavier damage to a Cube and blow it up on their own merits the next battle.

 

[zar]

Because while it was implied that One Cube wasn't their full force,

Oh, so it was IMPLIED now. I thought we KNEW?

The FX in "Q Who?" at least showed the torpedoes exploding and doing nothing.

Uh huh, so why can't they explode and do nothing in FC?

The Borg's regenerative power would've fixed all the damage by then, if the only damage done was hours earlier.

The power grid was damaged too remember?

It's how it worked last time they attacked.

So what? They were using different technology the last time. You have no basis to claim that the Defiant's fictional anti-Borg weapons must take exactly the same amount of time to adapt to as it did with the Ent-D's fictional phasers and photon torpedoes. It's not as if they have a magical "adapt" button that takes exactly 3 minutes to power up each time.


None of this changes the fact that your claim that FC took away the Borg's power to adapt is based completely upon your dubious speculation of what happened in a scene that took place entirely off-screen at the beginning of the movie, and ignores all evidence to the contrary in the remaining 90 minutes of the movie. Even assuming your speculation is correct, what you have here is, at best, a small plot hole.

 

[Anwar]

And to think, finding something that may have just been the FX team indulging themselves was just because I just wanted the "Borg were emasculated!" crowd to STFU and let me enjoy the show.

And in FC we saw the torpedo piercing the hull and exploding, as in blowing up a part of the outer hull. In "Q Who?" the torpedo explosions didn't leave a mark.

I think we should agree that the Feds could do more damage to the Borg after BOBW and leave it at that. "Scorpion" was an opportunity to do permanent, or at least critical damage to the Borg Collective and I feel it was squandered.

 

[zar]

And in FC we saw the torpedo piercing the hull and exploding, as in blowing up a part of the outer hull.

No we didn't. Not until Picard told the fleet where the unshielded section was.


I'll humor you.

This is what the effects of a phaser blast looked like in "Q Who", prior to adaptation:

Blew a huge chunk off the side of the cube.

This is what a phaser blast looked like in "First Contact", after adaptation:

No effect.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Duuuuuude... The Borg in Q Who were playing Possum.

"Who the fuck is this?" The Borg thought "Let's see what they do if we give them 5 minutes of overconfidence and then we'll understand a little more about them."

Besides the timelines have gotten really switched up that up after Scorpion/First Contact, the Borg were ten, maybe a thousand times more power in the revised timelines do-over of Q-Who and the best of Both Worlds (and so on and so on.)because the Costume department and props department would have been using the movie costume and props in '88 an impossible 8 years before costumes were drafted or sewed or the props were moulded.

But yes, superior more modern props and wardrobe in RL insinuates superior technology in-story.

 

[Anwar]

And in FC we saw the torpedo piercing the hull and exploding, as in blowing up a part of the outer hull.

No we didn't. Not until Picard told the fleet where the unshielded section was.

Watch the battle in FC again. When we see the Cube heading towards Earth the first scene we see is a torpedo hitting and blowing up on the hull of the Cube.