Watching "In the Flesh" after a decade

[zar]

Oh look, another Anwar thread.

They invented the 8472 for one story and one story alone, Scorpion. They were meant to simply be a plot device to keep the Borg off VOY's back. Problem was, the writers had no intention of keeping them around but needed a quick cheap way of getting rid of them.

Stop pulling shit out of your ass.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ugyq-D1v2ho#t=1m50s

"It was very exciting just to know that there was going to be a CG character, that IT WAS GOING TO BE A MAJOR PLAYER FOR THAT SEASON."

Also it's too expensive to use them again because of CGI.

It's actually a waste to put all that time and money into creating CG models if you're not going to use it more than once. Once it's created, it's relatively very easy to reuse it with additional scenes and animations.

If a show introduces a threat, it's the show's responsibility to get rid of that threat.

Klingons, Romulans, Khan, Q, warp core breaches.

The audience hates that VOY could actually talk with the 8472 in any way possible.

No it doesn't.

Imagine if TOS had just left the Doomsday Machine free to fly around the universe carving up planets?

This is how the final scene of that episode ends:

SPOCK: I can't help wondering if there are any more of those weapons wandering around the universe.
KIRK: I certainly hope not.

Even TOS had the sense to leave an opening here just like TNG did with the Borg etc. Completely wiping out something just because you're too arrogant to conceive of future writers being able to bring it back with a good story? That's irresponsible.

none would go over well with the audience.

Depends on execution. And I'm glad you're not a writer.

 

[Guy Gardener]

By adapt you understand that it means that they can measure weapons and shields frequencies after-which they then nullify these weapons effectiveness on a harmonic level creating a dissipating counterforce rather than some blunt shield that can't conserve energy?

They have super science, not magic.

 

[Anwar]

Stop pulling shit out of your ass.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ugyq-D1v2ho#t=1m50s

"It was very exciting just to know that there was going to be a CG character, that IT WAS GOING TO BE A MAJOR PLAYER FOR THAT SEASON."

Stated after the fact.

It's actually a waste to put all that time and money into creating CG models if you're not going to use it more than once. Once it's created, it's relatively very easy to reuse it with additional scenes and animations.

They'd have to keep redoing them, re-animating them and creating new variants on the 8472 for continual use. All of which would cost major $$$ back then.

Klingons, Romulans, Khan, Q, warp core breaches.

The Klingons and Romulans were never at the same level as Uberfoes like the Borg or 8472. They were either level to the Feds or somewhat weaker than them while still threatening. Those can be left alone.

Q was never an Uberfoe in that he never cared about conquering or destroying anything.

Khan WAS dealt with, left on that world. Til Harve Bennett got the idea of getting him off the world. It was a finished foe dusted off for further use.

No it doesn't.

Then why does this thread exist?

SPOCK: I can't help wondering if there are any more of those weapons wandering around the universe.
KIRK: I certainly hope not.

Even TOS had the sense to leave an opening here just like TNG did with the Borg etc. Completely wiping out something just because you're too arrogant to conceive of future writers being able to bring it back with a good story? That's irresponsible.

But did we ever see more of them? No. The immediate, singular threat was destroyed and done with. What they talked about was mere theory. TNG on the other hand established there WERE more Borg coming to get them, and did nothing to properly close that off. There's no way to top BOBW without giving the Borg victory (which would never happen, period) so they should have just said "That ship was the entire Borg race." and been done with it. It would've made the story even better.

Depends on execution.

That's unimportant.

If it was that instant, perhaps not. But there ARE ways to handle the Borg that many people who disliked their handling on VOY would've been satisfied with.

Oh really. Tell me how YOU would've been satisfied by VOY using a black hole to destroy a Borg ship, then. And if you can't, then it's just further proving my point that VOY couldn't do anything with the Borg that folks would like.

Since your hangup seems to be about the Borg specifically, "DS9 did it." is irrelevant to the conversation. And for the record, I think it'd make for an interesting episode if it was done well.

DS9 had the Prophets destroy a massive Dominion armada and no one cared. VOY does the same thing, irregardless of execution, and it's just slammed as "Deus Ex machine" and nothing more.

Like if the Voth episode "Distant Origin" opened up with VOY being chased by a Cube until the Voth City-Ship showed up to study VOY and destroyed the Cube in the process. No one would've liked that.

Again, Stargate is completely irrelevant to this conversation since your hangup is on the Borg. Again, it could be interesting if done well.

Yeah? And how would ANYONE here have been satisfied with a "VOY crew finds ancient weapon to destroy the Borg with"? You can't just say "If it was done well", that doesn't mean anything. If you can't back it up with an example of what you consider "Done Well" then it doesn't mean anything.

 

[Anwar]

By adapt you understand that it means that they can measure weapons and shields frequencies after-which they then nullify these weapons effectiveness on a harmonic level creating a dissipating counterforce rather than some blunt shield that can't conserve energy?

They have super science, not magic.

The easy answer to that is just introduce weapons that are always putting out too much energy that their maximum shield power can't match it. In other words, just give the VOY crew weapons that the Borg can't adapt to and have them always do the same amount of damage each attack. Borg shields have their limits like everyone else.

 

[RyuRoots]

Oh really. Tell me how YOU would've been satisfied by VOY using a black hole to destroy a Borg ship, then. And if you can't, then it's just further proving my point that VOY couldn't do anything with the Borg that folks would like.

No. Because I'm not obligated to comprehensively fix Voyager before I, as a viewer, have the right to voice what I find to be flaws in it. You need to deal with that.

"If you can't build a better car from scrap, complaining about any car is a double standard."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy

DS9 had the Prophets destroy a massive Dominion armada and no one cared.

Seriously? I've seen an entire thread devoted to how it was a deus ex machina and unsatisfying before, on the DS9 section of this forum. I don't think it was, but I know you're wrong on this point.

VOY does the same thing, irregardless of execution, and it's just slammed as "Deus Ex machine" and nothing more.

Wow, Voyager used the Prophets? Must've missed that episode.

Like if the Voth episode "Distant Origin" opened up with VOY being chased by a Cube until the Voth City-Ship showed up to study VOY and destroyed the Cube in the process. No one would've liked that.

Baseless speculation again.

Yeah? And how would ANYONE here have been satisfied with a "VOY crew finds ancient weapon to destroy the Borg with"? You can't just say "If it was done well", that doesn't mean anything. If you can't back it up with an example of what you consider "Done Well" then it doesn't mean anything.

Yes, it does. Execution is what it's all about.

See: Because I'm not obligated to comprehensively fix Voyager before I, as a viewer, have the right to voice what I find to be flaws in it. You need to deal with that.

 

[zar]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ugyq-D1v2ho#t=1m50s

"It was very exciting just to know that there was going to be a CG character, that IT WAS GOING TO BE A MAJOR PLAYER FOR THAT SEASON."

Stated after the fact.

So what? Do you understand what "was going to be" means?

They'd have to keep redoing them, re-animating them and creating new variants on the 8472 for continual use. All of which would cost major $$$ back then.

They need to re-animate, but they don't need to "redo" anything because the models already exist and are probably still saved in a computer to this day. CGI doesn't cost anything but time, and adding new animations to an already existing model takes relatively very little.

Khan WAS dealt with, left on that world. Til Harve Bennett got the idea of getting him off the world. It was a finished foe dusted off for further use.

Exactly. Khan could have been left alone on the planet, just like the Borg could have been left alone after TNG. It was not TNG's responsibility to wipe out the Borg. They left an opening for future appearances by NOT doing so. According to your reasoning, it was TOS's responsibility to KILL Khan, not just leave him on a planet so he could come back again.

But did we ever see more of them? No. The immediate, singular threat was destroyed and done with. What they talked about was mere theory. TNG on the other hand established there WERE more Borg coming to get them, and did nothing to properly close that off.

Bullshit. TNG didn't "establish" that anymore than Spock's line "established" that there were more planet eaters coming to get them. What they did was leave an opening. The only difference is that writers chose to take the opportunity with the Borg, and chose not to with the planet eater.

execution

That's unimportant.

no one cared.

I stopped reading here.

 

[Saito S]

Stop pulling shit out of your ass.
"It was very exciting just to know that there was going to be a CG character, that IT WAS GOING TO BE A MAJOR PLAYER FOR THAT SEASON."

Stated after the fact.

zar provided a link to back up his claims about the writers and their intentions. Where's YOUR proof that, at the time they were created, the writers and producers intended for 8472 to be ONLY used the one time?

Then why does this thread exist?

Because some people don't like "In the Flesh." That's it.

Stop making these irrational logic leaps, dude! Not liking that episode, and the way the 8472 story was wrapped up, DOES NOT mean that we wouldn't like ANY story involving talk or diplomacy with 8472.

That's unimportant.

Execution... unimportant.



Don't ever try to write a book.

Oh really. Tell me how YOU would've been satisfied by VOY using a black hole to destroy a Borg ship, then.

Okay.

"How I would have been satisfied by VOY using a black hole to destroy a Borg ship - by Saito S."
-I would have sat in front of my TV, watching the episode. When Voyager lured a cube into a black hole, destroying it, I would have gone "Whoa! They lured them into a freakin black hole! Badass!" -

Assuming that the ep was entertaining, of course. Oh wait! I forgot, whether the ep is GOOD or not is irrelevant, because "execution" doesn't matter!

And if you can't, then it's just further proving my point that VOY couldn't do anything with the Borg that folks would like.

That "point" was never proven to begin with.

DS9 had the Prophets destroy a massive Dominion armada and no one cared. VOY does the same thing, irregardless

regardless

of execution, and it's just slammed as "Deus Ex machine"

"Deus Ex Machina"

and nothing more.

VOY never did anything like that! That's the POINT some of us have been trying to make! That instead of just treating the Borg like any old enemy and shooting them up, they SHOULD have used unusual methods to defeat them... such as catching the attention of some uber-power long enough for said uber-power to decide to destroy the Borg ship before it destroys Voyager.

And as RyuRoots pointed out, there are plenty of DS9 fans who hated the Prophets disappearing the Dominion fleet in "Sacrifice of Angels," and dismiss it as a deus ex machina cop-out. I'm not one of them, but the point is, "no one cared" is not even close to reality.

Like if the Voth episode "Distant Origin" opened up with VOY being chased by a Cube until the Voth City-Ship showed up to study VOY and destroyed the Cube in the process. No one would've liked that.

Everyone would have liked that, because it would have been awesome.

Yeah? And how would ANYONE here have been satisfied with a "VOY crew finds ancient weapon to destroy the Borg with"? You can't just say "If it was done well", that doesn't mean anything. If you can't back it up with an example of what you consider "Done Well" then it doesn't mean anything.

Yes, it does. To quote myself:
"As a viewer, one is entitled to identify flaws they find in a show without being obligated to come up with comprehensive solutions for those flaws."

You are asserting that if Voyager did such a story, then it would be soundly rejected by "the audience", no matter HOW good an ep it was. The onus is on YOU to back up such a grandiose, outlandish claim. You are DEMANDING we write Voyager stories to fill in the gaps, to provide examples of what we would consider "done well." I'm sorry, but I have better things to do with my time. Our ability or willingness to write good Voyager stories has no bearing whatsoever on our right to express opinions on the show, or on the validity of those opinions.

I can't believe I had to write that.

Also, bolded the one word up there to make a point: "anyone here", you say? Good grief. How many times do WE - the people "here", on this BBS for whom VOY is not our favorite Trek - have to tell you that we liked the show, despite seeing wasted potential and wishing it would have been better - before you believe us? You claim that WE would "never be satisfied with such a story." Then you are told that you are wrong; that we would have found it pretty cool if the show had ever done such a thing. You seem to have trouble understanding that.

 

[Anwar]

So what? Do you understand what "was going to be" means?

They're saying it in retrospect, and the "major role" they played WAS major. For one episode. Scorpion part II. That was the only role they had and it WAS major.

Exactly. Khan could have been left alone on the planet, just like the Borg could have been left alone after TNG. It was not TNG's responsibility to wipe out the Borg. They left an opening for future appearances by NOT doing so. According to your reasoning, it was TOS's responsibility to KILL Khan, not just leave him on a planet so he could come back again.

The Borg could NOT have been left alone after BOBW. It was made clear that they'd come for the Feds, and not stop coming. BOBW was a delaying action, not a true victory since the rest of the Borg were still out there coming for the Feds.

It's like what if BoT ended with the Bird of Prey being destroyed but the Romulan High Command deciding to launch further attacks. You can't leave that alone, it has to be resolved. Khan in TOS was defeated and stranded with no way of escaping, until WoK contrived a method. He WAS defeated and his story resolved until they un-resolved it later on.

Bullshit. TNG didn't "establish" that anymore than Spock's line "established" that there were more planet eaters coming to get them.

Guinan said that they'd come, and come in force. Implying that the One Cube was not full force. Therefore, at the end of BOBW we're left with the realization that there are still more Borg out there and they'll keep coming until something is done to eliminate their threat.

Because some people don't like "In the Flesh." That's it.

Yes, and "In the Flesh" is about them diplomatically settling things.

Not liking that episode, and the way the 8472 story was wrapped up, DOES NOT mean that we wouldn't like ANY story involving talk or diplomacy with 8472

You talk about how they were cool for being unstoppable xenocidal maniacs (although most others just hate them for being able to fight the Borg), being able to do diplomacy with them means they aren't xenocidal maniacs. So which is it, cool xenocidal maniacs or not?

Execution... unimportant.



Don't ever try to write a book.

Execution WAS unimportant. It's the simple core idea that the audience can't stand, the idea of VOY being able to do ANYTHING to the Borg regardless of external circumstances. Execution wouldn't change that.

I would have sat in front of my TV, watching the episode. When Voyager lured a cube into a black hole, destroying it, I would have gone "Whoa! They lured them into a freakin black hole! Badass!

Har-Har.

Assuming that the ep was entertaining, of course. Oh wait! I forgot, whether the ep is GOOD or not is irrelevant, because "execution" doesn't matter!

What matters in this hypothetical story is how they deal with the Borg, nothing more or else.

VOY never did anything like that! That's the POINT some of us have been trying to make! That instead of just treating the Borg like any old enemy and shooting them up, they SHOULD have used unusual methods to defeat them... such as catching the attention of some uber-power long enough for said uber-power to decide to destroy the Borg ship before it destroys Voyager

It's just more no-win. Either treat them like some uber-special foe and come up with some ridiculous contrivance to kill them, each one more ridiculous than the last, and get slammed for it or treat them like a normal foe and get slammed for it.

Everyone would have liked that, because it would have been awesome.

It would have been more proof of their "emasculation" that there were others stronger than them. Like in Scorpion. The Borg are supposed to be some kind of invincible Uberfoe that is the number one foe of all existence, right? Because that's what the TNG Borg fans made them out to be.

Good grief. How many times do WE - the people "here", on this BBS for whom VOY is not our favorite Trek - have to tell you that we liked the show, despite seeing wasted potential and wishing it would have been better - before you believe us?

If the show WAS liked the way you say you like it, then there wouldn't be as much whining that the show's potential was squandered, and that folks wish it was better. If something is liked then it's appreciated for what it is, not for what it could have been. And there'd be more folks who bother to defend the show from those people in the first place.

 

[RyuRoots]

If the show WAS liked the way you say you like it, then there wouldn't be as much whining that the show's potential was squandered, and that folks wish it was better.

So now everyone who thinks VOY had any wasted potential is a whiner!


Secondly, you don't think it's possible for someone to enjoy a show yet at the same time have some issues with things that were mishandled? Putting aside that that would be one of the most hypocritical things you've ever said since you yourself have stated the show wasn't perfect, including the whole Maquis thing, that's an absurd notion.

If something is liked then it's appreciated for what it is, not for what it could have been.

I don't think you understand the basic concept of liking something. Someone can enjoy something and still feel that it has had some missteps. I mean, I LOVE DS9, but it's definitely screwed up here and there. Or do I hate DS9 without my realizing it?

And there'd be more folks who bother to defend the show from those people in the first place.

This isn't a crusade like you make it out to be; it's just a simple opinion, Anwar. No one NEEDS to "defend" against the horrible, horrible opinions of people who do anything but worship the show.

 

[Saito S]

Yes, and "In the Flesh" is about them diplomatically settling things.

Uh... and? That still doesn't mean that because this ONE example of a "diplomacy with 8472 story" was not so good, that ALL such stories would automatically be not good.

You talk about how they were cool for being unstoppable xenocidal maniacs

I have never said they were cool only - or even primarily - BECAUSE they were unstoppable "xenocidal" maniacs, so no, I don't "talk about" that. Please refrain from putting words in my mouth (yeah, right).

(although most others just hate them for being able to fight the Borg),

Not really. People liked 8472, and partly BECAUSE we were suddenly presented with an enemy that could trash the Borg.

being able to do diplomacy with them means they aren't xenocidal maniacs. So which is it, cool xenocidal maniacs or not?

They started off as xenocidal maniacs. Then we find out that there is, in fact, more to it than that (their only initial exposure to our galaxy was the Borg trying to invade them). Time goes by, they are exposed to other beings, they begin to see that they might have been wrong. Diplomacy ensues.

It's really not even that complicated. And there is nothing inherently wrong with that progression. It's just that the particulars of what went on in "In the Flesh" weren't a good resolution to the 8472 story.

Execution WAS unimportant. It's the simple core idea that the audience can't stand, the idea of VOY being able to do ANYTHING to the Borg regardless of external circumstances. Execution wouldn't change that.

"The audience" again.

No. Sorry. Execution matters. And there is nothing about the core concept of either Voyager encountering the Borg and not ending up dead, nor the concept of 8472 (including the part about them steamrolling the Borg) that "the audience" hated.

What matters in this hypothetical story is how they deal with the Borg, nothing more or else.

Right. And I'm saying that to have them lure the Borg into some natural phenomena would have been interesting. To see the Voth city ship blow away a cube would have been awesome. You seem to think that new ideas can be "used up", and that once something is done, you cannot even do anything REMOTELY SIMILAR. i.e., the Ent-D lured a Borg ship into a star to defeat it, so no Trek show can ever "lure" (or something along those lines) a Borg ship into any "natural phenomena", cause it's been done and CANNOT BE REPEATED ON PENALTY OF DEEEEEEAAAATH.

And that idea is just... well, like I said, don't ever try to write a book.

It's just more no-win. Either treat them like some uber-special foe and come up with some ridiculous contrivance to kill them, each one more ridiculous than the last, and get slammed for it or treat them like a normal foe and get slammed for it.

If their methods to kill them weren't ridiculous, there would be no problem. Simply using regular weapons (your garden variety phasers and torps; you said earlier that for Voyager to "invent new weapons" would simply count as "more regular weapons", which is silly; if they used an actual, brand-NEW weapon against the Borg and it worked, you can hardly say they defeated them with "the same old conventional weapons) over and over and over is what's ridiculous.

It would have been more proof of their "emasculation" that there were others stronger than them. Like in Scorpion.

No, the emasculation came from the Borg being easily and repeatedly defeated using conventional means by Voyager. No one had a problem with 8472 clobbering them, as evidenced by Scorpion's enduring popularity.

The Borg are supposed to be some kind of invincible Uberfoe that is the number one foe of all existence, right?

Right!

Oh, wait... actually, no.

Because that's what the TNG Borg fans made them out to be.

 

[Anwar]

So now everyone who thinks VOY had any wasted potential is a whiner!

Well, not EVERYONE. Just the ones who always go for "wasted potential" before anything else instead of saying "This show was enjoyable, there was some further potential that wasn't exploited to its fullest though."

Secondly, you don't think it's possible for someone to enjoy a show yet at the same time have some issues with things that were mishandled?

Course it's possible, just that in this case it's more about the folks going on about the mishandled issues above all else to the point you forget they were supposed to have liked this show in the first place.

Putting aside that that would be one of the most hypocritical things you've ever said since you yourself have stated the show wasn't perfect, including the whole Maquis thing, that's an absurd notion.

I DON'T think the show was perfect, but I'll always remember that I LIKED the show before going on about what I disliked.

 

[RyuRoots]

Dude, people aren't obligated to preface everything they say about a show with "But I want to make sure, in case anyone forgot, I do like the show." to satisfy your personal neuroses. I remember that I liked the show, too because it had some great parts to it; and I wish the whole show was that good, because it had some really great episodes and a lot of good acting and writing talent. But I don't need to say that in every single post I make on this forum.

 

[Anwar]

Uh... and? That still doesn't mean that because this ONE example of a "diplomacy with 8472 story" was not so good, that ALL such stories would automatically be not good.

The complaint about "In the Flesh" was that things were settled diplomatically and the 8472 weren't Xenocidal maniacs anymore. Nothing to do with the QUALITY of the episode, simply the mere concept of it.

Not really. People liked 8472, and partly BECAUSE we were suddenly presented with an enemy that could trash the Borg.

VOY is where the audience says the Borg got defanged. 8472 were introduced into the series annihilating the Borg like flies with the Borg unable to defend themselves. This is the definition of being defanged in that their power counted for nothing. It's irrelevant that it was some new species doing it, that it happened at ALL was the problem. Which is because TNG fans had this ludicrously overblown image of the Borg.

It's really not even that complicated. And there is nothing inherently wrong with that progression.

It has EVERYTHING to do with the inherent progression. This is the problem with Uberfoes, the audience builds up too much of an overblown image of them to enjoy anything different. VOY's writers needed to do some kind of audience interview were they got their overblown expectations deflated constantly.

No. Sorry. Execution matters. And there is nothing about the core concept of either Voyager encountering the Borg and not ending up dead, nor the concept of 8472 (including the part about them steamrolling the Borg) that "the audience" hated.

The audience had built up an image of the Borg being the supreme enemy of the Galaxy, and no one starship being able to do anything to stop them or escape them successfully. That image meant that there could never be enemies as strong as or stronger than the Borg, or one starship being able to do anything to survive against them. That image needed to be deflated, mercilessly, and the audience given a well-deserved middle finger. And when VOY popped their silly illusions with "Scorpion" the audience was enraged.

Right. And I'm saying that to have them lure the Borg into some natural phenomena would have been interesting. To see the Voth city ship blow away a cube would have been awesome. You seem to think that new ideas can be "used up", and that once something is done, you cannot even do anything REMOTELY SIMILAR.

Because it's defying the Borg's "adaptation" and existence. One natural phenomena used = all natural phenomena will be guarded against. If not, then there's no point in having the Borg adapt to stuff at all since you can use the same 'type' of thing against them more than once.

The alternative is to just come out and admit that there are things the Borg just can't adapt to, and will always be effective Borg-killers. And we saw how the audience reacted to THAT with the 8472.

If their methods to kill them weren't ridiculous, there would be no problem.

Random superweapons just left lying around, inventing new weapons on the fly, etc.

you said earlier that for Voyager to "invent new weapons" would simply count as "more regular weapons", which is silly; if they used an actual, brand-NEW weapon against the Borg and it worked, you can hardly say they defeated them with "the same old conventional weapons) over and over and over is what's ridiculous.

If they invent them and use them regularly, they're regular weapons. So nothing they could invent would be effective either if they want to maintain the Borg's overpowered inflated TNG image. Their newly invented weapons all failed there too, remember?

Course, their weapons after that in FC were effective but no one cared. But this is just double standard again.

The Borg are supposed to be some kind of invincible Uberfoe that is the number one foe of all existence, right?

Right!

Oh, wait... actually, no.

Because that's what the TNG Borg fans made them out to be.

[/QUOTE]

TNG fans had this image of the Borg as this vast unstoppable force NOTHING in existence could ever stand up on its own strengths. VOY showed this wasn't so, showing them to not be invincible and the foe of all who exist, which emasculated them because they couldn't handle the Borg not being less than the absolute power out there.

 

[zar]

They're saying it in retrospect, and the "major role" they played WAS major. For one episode.

No, not for one episode. FOR THAT SEASON. It couldn't be made any more clear. There is no sane way you can interpret what he said to mean "We only meant to use this in the first episode." Why can you never admit when you're wrong, even when it's blindingly obvious? You keep stating that there was no way they could have used 8472 more, and that they never intended to. You have given absolutely no evidence whatsoever besides your own word, while I have produced clear evidence straight from the source that the exact opposite is true. You were wrong, plain and simple. The matter is closed, whether you realize it or not.

But I want to make sure, in case anyone forgot, I do like the show.

The Borg could NOT have been left alone after BOBW. It was made clear that they'd come for the Feds, and not stop coming.

Why? Explain how they "made this clear" in a way that was impossible to ignore as opposed to Spock's foreshadowing in the Doomsday episode.

Guinan said that they'd come, and come in force. Implying that the One Cube was not full force. Therefore, at the end of BOBW we're left with the realization that there are still more Borg out there and they'll keep coming until something is done to eliminate their threat.

What does Guinan's quote have to do with what we're left feeling at the end of BOBW? She said that way back in the first Borg episode, Q Who. There is no foreshadowing whatsoever at the end of BOBW. They already did come back in force after Q Who. That's what BOBW was.

"emasculation"

Oh, God...

Because it's defying the Borg's "adaptation" and existence. One natural phenomena used = all natural phenomena will be guarded against.

That is... insanely illogical. I don't even know what else to say to that. It makes no sense at all.

But I want to make sure, in case anyone forgot, I do like the show.

 

[RyuRoots]

Because it's defying the Borg's "adaptation" and existence. One natural phenomena used = all natural phenomena will be guarded against. If not, then there's no point in having the Borg adapt to stuff at all since you can use the same 'type' of thing against them more than once.

I...wow. You could make a Vulcan's head explode. That's like saying that because I can survive underwater for a few minutes that I should be able to survive being beaten in the face with a tree because water and trees are both found in nature.

 

[Anwar]

No, not for one episode. FOR THAT SEASON.

And that one episode was IN THAT SEASON.

You keep stating that there was no way they could have used 8472 more, and that they never intended to.

They were written for Scorpion, and then they did Scorpion. Case closed. Unfortunately they became too popular and the writers were forced to deal with this expensive new leech, so they decided to just get rid of them in a way that made it clear they weren't coming back. No open-ends, just gone. The way all overpowered boring types should be.

Why? Explain how they "made this clear" in a way that was impossible to ignore as opposed to Spock's foreshadowing in the Doomsday episode.

Spock's random ramblings on something he has no facts about vs An actual survivor of a real Borg attack and someone with knowledge of how the Borg operate. Huh, I wonder what's better.

What does Guinan's quote have to do with what we're left feeling at the end of BOBW? She said that way back in the first Borg episode, Q Who. There is no foreshadowing whatsoever at the end of BOBW. They already did come back in force after Q Who. That's what BOBW was.

She said they'd come in force, and the implication was that this one Cube was not their force. Thus, a real attack would be lots of Cubes. Since this didn't happen BOBW is left open with the probability of future Borg attacks. The didn't end the story conclusively beyond that one Borg attack, which was not the full force of the Borg.

That is... insanely illogical. I don't even know what else to say to that. It makes no sense at all.

Since the concept of using a natural phenomena to stop the Borg had already been used, the entire concept of Natural phenomena as a weapon was now closed off for future Borg stories. Simple as that. It's what you get for creating a boring overpowered foe that adapt to entire concepts.

That's like saying that because I can survive underwater for a few minutes that I should be able to survive being beaten in the face with a tree because water and trees are both found in nature

You can't adapt to entire concepts, very ideas. The overpowered Borg can.

 

[Saito S]

Well, not EVERYONE. Just the ones who always go for "wasted potential" before anything else instead of saying "This show was enjoyable, there was some further potential that wasn't exploited to its fullest though."

Like many of us on this board have said, hundreds of times?

Course it's possible, just that in this case it's more about the folks going on about the mishandled issues above all else to the point you forget they were supposed to have liked this show in the first place.

Considering how many times one of us has said straight out that we like the show, despite it's flaws, only to have you immediately call whoever said it a "hater" or some similar sentiment (sometimes stopping just short of telling us that we were somehow lying or mistaken about liking the show), I'm going to call the above a pile of crap.

The complaint about "In the Flesh" was that things were settled diplomatically and the 8472 weren't Xenocidal maniacs anymore. Nothing to do with the QUALITY of the episode, simply the mere concept of it.

No, it was the quality of the ep, not the concept.

VOY is where the audience says the Borg got defanged. 8472 were introduced into the series annihilating the Borg like flies with the Borg unable to defend themselves. This is the definition of being defanged in that their power counted for nothing. It's irrelevant that it was some new species doing it, that it happened at ALL was the problem.

No, the problem was with Voyager specifically defeating the Borg on their own, easily, with conventional means.

Which is because TNG fans had this ludicrously overblown image of the Borg.

No they didn't.

The audience had built up an image of the Borg being the supreme enemy of the Galaxy, and no one starship being able to do anything to stop them or escape them successfully.

No they hadn't.

That image needed to be deflated, mercilessly, and the audience given a well-deserved middle finger.

What

What is this... I don't even...

And when VOY popped their silly illusions with "Scorpion" the audience was enraged.

No, most people loved "Scorpion." And still do.

Because it's defying the Borg's "adaptation" and existence. One natural phenomena used = all natural phenomena will be guarded against. If not, then there's no point in having the Borg adapt to stuff at all since you can use the same 'type' of thing against them more than once.

Ok, so... you really don't have any idea how the Borg's adaptation is supposed to work, then. And even if the idea that a Borg ship blowing up in a star means that other Borg are then protected against the effects of flying into stars (it DOESN'T mean that, for several reasons, but if it did), that certainly wouldn't then protect them from "all natural phenomena."

The alternative is to just come out and admit that there are things the Borg just can't adapt to, and will always be effective Borg-killers.

Which they did.

And we saw how the audience reacted to THAT with the 8472.

With praise, enthusiasm, and an overwhelming sense of "Ok, now THIS is what I was hoping for with this show!"

If they invent them and use them regularly, they're regular weapons.

BRAND NEW WEAPONS. As in NOT phasers and photon torpedoes. Or, at the very least, some mention of major alterations to their normal weapons. That's the very definition of "not their regular weapons".

So nothing they could invent would be effective either if they want to maintain the Borg's overpowered inflated TNG image. Their newly invented weapons all failed there too, remember?

WHAT newly invented weapons? The only brand-new weapon they ever used was the blast generated by the main deflector dish, and that failed specifically because Picard has been assimilated.

Course, their weapons after that in FC were effective but no one cared. But this is just double standard again.

Right, because a fleet of Starfleet ships, all hand-picked to fight off a Borg ship and consisting of many combat classes, fighting a running battle and taking heavy losses against a single Borg cube across multiple sectors and just barely managing to defeat it with significant help from Picard's link to the Borg as it was on Earth's doorstep, is TOTALLY the same thing as Voyager treating the Borg like they were just any old enemy that they can comfortably take on whenever they need to.

But I want to make sure, in case anyone forgot, I do like the show.
......
But I want to make sure, in case anyone forgot, I do like the show.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Unless they realised the modified Borg Nanoprobes made THEM the weak ones, and suddenly "the weak will perish" becomes a problem for them.

Makes sense.

 

[Guy Gardener]

The Borg didn't want to assimilate Voyager.

They assimilate civilizations not individuals.

Voyager wasn't worth the price of a torpedo to deal with.

 

[RyuRoots]

That's like saying that because I can survive underwater for a few minutes that I should be able to survive being beaten in the face with a tree because water and trees are both found in nature

You can't adapt to entire concepts, very ideas. The overpowered Borg can.

Maybe in your own fanfic-verse in your head, but not in the shows. You are factually incorrect, Anwar.