Watching "In the Flesh" after a decade

[Anwar]

No, it was the quality of the ep, not the concept.

Dude, it was the concept itself that was disgusting to the audience, nothing more nothing less.

No, the problem was with Voyager specifically defeating the Borg on their own, easily, with conventional means.

They never "defeated" the Borg the same way the 8472 did, blasting apart Cubes like they were nothing. That only happened in "Endgame" thanks to future technology. In "Dark Frontier" they broke into the Unimatrix, but it's not like they did any real damage. And in "Unimatrix Zero" they survived a fight with a Cube, they didn't destroy it they just survived (with little to no damage, granted, but it's not like they did any harm to the Cube).

The real issue was that the stories treated the Borg as just some enemy and not some huge threat, but VOY had nothing to work with to make big threats anyways since it was always just them on their own. And the one time they did do a "Big Threat" story with the Borg it just opened another can of worms (the 8472).

No they didn't.

Yeah, they did. They thought they were some unbeatable Uberfoe.

No they hadn't.

Yeah, they had. They just had no problem with the ENT-D surviving Borg encounters but hated that anyone else could do it too.

What
What is this... I don't even...

The Trek writers in VOY needed to give interviews where they repeatedly drilled it into the audience's head what Q said in "Q Who?": That the Borg were just ONE of many powerful races in the Galaxy and that the DQ is probably full of them and they're nothing super-special nor are they invincible so the audience should stop expecting them to be. Deflate their overblown visions of the Borg as some ultimate enemy.

No, most people loved "Scorpion." And still do.

It's the start of the Borg decay, as far as the fandom is concerned.

Ok, so... you really don't have any idea how the Borg's adaptation is supposed to work, then. And even if the idea that a Borg ship blowing up in a star means that other Borg are then protected against the effects of flying into stars (it DOESN'T mean that, for several reasons, but if it did), that certainly wouldn't then protect them from "all natural phenomena."

Drama-wise, storytelling-wise, the Borg' adaptive power means that they can't even use CONCEPTS against them twice. If one "Hack into the Collective" story is done, then all future possible "Hack into the Collective" stories are now nonviable. No matter what differences there'd be. If one "use natural phenomena" story is done, then all future possible natural phenomena stories are now nonviable no matter what different kind of phenomena they'd use.

Which they did.

No, they never did. Part of the problem was that the TNG fans expected the Borg to always be able to adapt to anything, no exceptions.

With praise, enthusiasm, and an overwhelming sense of "Ok, now THIS is what I was hoping for with this show!"

No, with "This sucks, VOY created some new bad guys and decided to show off how tough they are by emasculating the Borg. This show is even more worthless than ever."

BRAND NEW WEAPONS. As in NOT phasers and photon torpedoes. Or, at the very least, some mention of major alterations to their normal weapons. That's the very definition of "not their regular weapons".

If a brand new weapon becomes a standardly-used weapon, then it becomes the new standard and thus a normal weapon. Unless for some reason they can't use it more than once, which is just dumb.

WHAT newly invented weapons? The only brand-new weapon they ever used was the blast generated by the main deflector dish, and that failed specifically because Picard has been assimilated.

New phaser frequencies, new shield modifications. Both failed when it came time.

Right, because a fleet of Starfleet ships, all hand-picked to fight off a Borg ship and consisting of many combat classes, fighting a running battle and taking heavy losses against a single Borg cube across multiple sectors and just barely managing to defeat it with significant help from Picard's link to the Borg as it was on Earth's doorstep, is TOTALLY the same thing as Voyager treating the Borg like they were just any old enemy that they can comfortably take on whenever they need to.

Each one of those ships had weapons that stayed effective for that entire battle, instead of becoming useless after one or two shots. That's all I was trying to say. The Borg's adaptive abilities were totally negated in that fight and no one cared.

 

[Saito S]

Unfortunately they became too popular and

The 8472 became too popular?

I thought "the audience" hated "Scorpion" and 8472 for giving the Borg a beatdown?

Since the concept of using a natural phenomena to stop the Borg had already been used, the entire concept of Natural phenomena as a weapon was now closed off for future Borg stories. Simple as that. It's what you get for creating a boring overpowered foe that adapt to entire concepts.

You can't adapt to entire concepts, very ideas. The overpowered Borg can.

Wait what

The Borg adapt to concepts and ideas?

Wow. I'm not even sure how to respond to that.

 

[Anwar]

That's like saying that because I can survive underwater for a few minutes that I should be able to survive being beaten in the face with a tree because water and trees are both found in nature

You can't adapt to entire concepts, very ideas. The overpowered Borg can.

Maybe in your own fanfic-verse in your head, but not in the shows. You are factually incorrect, Anwar.

The shows have the Borg adapt to everything thrown at them in TNG, except for the solar flare (but the Descent Borg couldn't adapt to anything so it's a moot point). The Borg adapting to things at a conceptual level IS factually correct.

Until FC, but no one cares because it's not VOY.

 

[Anwar]

Wait what

The Borg adapt to concepts and ideas?

Wow. I'm not even sure how to respond to that.

I explained it better in my prior post. Storytelling-wise and drama-wise they adapt to things on a conceptual level and become immune to the very concept of things like Phasers and Torpedoes. And then being hacked into, and natural phenomena.

 

[Saito S]

No, it was the quality of the ep, not the concept.

Dude, it was the concept itself that was disgusting to the audience, nothing more nothing less.

Dude, you're wrong.

nonsense

Where do these ideas COME from? TNG fans wanted the Borg to be an unstoppable super-mega-ultra-awesome force?

The Trek writers in VOY needed to give interviews where they repeatedly drilled it into the audience's head what Q said in "Q Who?": That the Borg were just ONE of many powerful races in the Galaxy and that the DQ is probably full of them and they're nothing super-special nor are they invincible so the audience should stop expecting them to be.

That would have been silly, to give such interviews, since Q already mentioned it.

Deflate their overblown visions of the Borg as some ultimate enemy.

Good thing there was no such image.

It's the start of the Borg decay, as far as the fandom is concerned.

No, it's not. A top-rated ep, that is always spoken of highly and consistently makes it into one "best of" list after another, is not the start of the decay of anything.

Drama-wise, storytelling-wise, the Borg' adaptive power means that they can't even use CONCEPTS against them twice. If one "Hack into the Collective" story is done, then all future possible "Hack into the Collective" stories are now nonviable. No matter what differences there'd be. If one "use natural phenomena" story is done, then all future possible natural phenomena stories are now nonviable no matter what different kind of phenomena they'd use.

You can't adapt to entire concepts, very ideas. The overpowered Borg can.

Maybe in your own fanfic-verse in your head, but not in the shows. You are factually incorrect, Anwar.

The shows have the Borg adapt to everything thrown at them in TNG, except for the solar flare (but the Descent Borg couldn't adapt to anything so it's a moot point). The Borg adapting to things at a conceptual level IS factually correct.

Until FC, but no one cares because it's not VOY.

Wow, you're actually running with this "the Borg adapt to concepts and ideas" thing?

No. They don't. Never did. It's a ridiculous notion. That would make the Borg magic.

And so that this isn't JUST "another Anwar thread", another thought about 8472. So Voyager made this weapon that was actually effective against them, which nothing else had been until that point. I think that could have had the effect of making the 8472 trust our galaxy even less, BUT at the same time... they might be impressed. One gets the feeling that nothing has really been able to stand up to them, including the Borg. Yet this one lone ship, from something called a "Federation" that seems to not even be as advanced as the Borg overall, was able to find a way to do something no one else had been able to do: seriously hurt them. So they would be more cautious, knowing these people did have some capacity to harm them after all, but they might feel it's worth finding out more about such an inventive species. Sort of a case of still not liking them, but respecting the ability they demonstrated.

 

[RyuRoots]

The shows have the Borg adapt to everything thrown at them in TNG, except for the solar flare (but the Descent Borg couldn't adapt to anything so it's a moot point). The Borg adapting to things at a conceptual level IS factually correct.

Saying a thing does not make it so. You have never listed even a single example of the Borg adapting to a concept. Do so, and maybe I'll take the claim seriously.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Then how come Worf could hack a limb off one in the movie?

Or was that the first time some one had tried to use a knife against them?

 

[Anwar]

Dude, you're wrong.

Fine. Start a thread asking the others on this forum if they would EVER accept a single-episode with no space battles that settled things diplomatically between the 8472.

Where do these ideas COME from? TNG fans wanted the Borg to be an unstoppable super-mega-ultra-awesome force?

Yes.

That would have been silly, to give such interviews, since Q already mentioned it.

The audience clearly forgot. Otherwise they wouldn't have been so PO'ed at the 8472.

Good thing there was no such image.

Not anymore, which is why they're so mad.

No, it's not. A top-rated ep, that is always spoken of highly and consistently makes it into one "best of" list after another, is not the start of the decay of anything.

It was the first time the Borg were ever shown being easily defeated. "Emasculation", remember?

Wow, you're actually running with this "the Borg adapt to concepts and ideas" thing?

No. They don't. Never did. It's a ridiculous notion. That would make the Borg magic.

I guess the image of the Borg was so overblown by then the audience DID think they were magic. Until VOY proved otherwise, which is why they hate all Borg appearances there.

So Voyager made this weapon that was actually effective against them, which nothing else had been until that point.

Yeah, which is just another strike taken at the show. That one ship could do something like that.

So they would be more cautious, knowing these people did have some capacity to harm them after all, but they might feel it's worth finding out more about such an inventive species. Sort of a case of still not liking them, but respecting the ability they demonstrated.

Which humanizes them, makes them less the Xenocidal maniacs they had been, which just pisses off the audience again. When dealing with flat Uberfoes like the Borg or the 8472 you just CAN'T develop them in any way that the audience would enjoy beyond "Unstoppable force".

Even when it makes sense.

 

[zar]

No, not for one episode. FOR THAT SEASON.

And that one episode was IN THAT SEASON.

You keep stating that there was no way they could have used 8472 more, and that they never intended to.

They were written for Scorpion, and then they did Scorpion. Case closed.

? How is this a logical interpretation of what he said? If he was creating something for one episode and one episode only, why was he talking about how he was excited about a CG character being a "major" part of "that season"? Why the hell would he phrase it that way? If it was meant for only one episode he would have no reason to be excited about it anymore than other one-time CG creatures like Junior or these blob things.

Bottom line: I'm backed by actual archived commentary, and you're talking out of your ass. Don't bring this up again until you have something to back it up.

She said they'd come in force, and the implication was that this one Cube was not their force. Thus, a real attack would be lots of Cubes. Since this didn't happen BOBW is left open with the probability of future Borg attacks. The didn't end the story conclusively beyond that one Borg attack, which was not the full force of the Borg.

Then why was there no hint AT ALL in BOBW itself that they were definitely coming back? Are you seriously suggesting that Guinan's comment from an episode that aired two years prior is more obvious foreshadowing than a direct closing line like Spock had?

Also, you keep saying "full force" which is once again pulled out of your ass. Guinan NEVER said "full force", all she said was that they'd be coming "in force" now that they know humans exist. What makes this even more ridiculous, coming from you, is that you're always saying they should have completely wiped out the Borg in BOBW, by saying that that one cube carried the entire Borg population -- which means you ARE completely willing to accept the possibility that one cube IS the full force of the Borg, which is the exact opposite of what you're now saying here.

And how is destroying a fleet of 40 starships NOT a sufficient display of force??

You can't adapt to entire concepts, very ideas. The overpowered Borg can.

What is this based on? Hell, they couldn't even adapt to slightly modified phasers. In EVERY SINGLE Borg encounter, the Feds manage to do SOME damage before someone cries out "they've adapted!" because they do something slightly different than the last time. The version of the Borg you're describing now has NEVER been depicted on screen, ever. Don't mention it again unless you have an episode to back it up. (Hint: You don't.)

 

[Anwar]

The shows have the Borg adapt to everything thrown at them in TNG, except for the solar flare (but the Descent Borg couldn't adapt to anything so it's a moot point). The Borg adapting to things at a conceptual level IS factually correct.

Saying a thing does not make it so. You have never listed even a single example of the Borg adapting to a concept. Do so, and maybe I'll take the claim seriously.

The Borg take substantial damage in "Q Who?" and then after that all the ENT's weapons are useless. Photon torpedoes for the entirely of TNG are now wholly useless, and they have to make Quantum torpedoes for them to be effective again. The Phasers become similarly useless except with one or two shots that randomly work before they become useless again.
The very CONCEPT of phasers and photon torpedoes are adapted to.

Of course, in FC they smartly drop this and have the Borg ships be damaged by every torpedo and phaser blast that hits them and no one cares. But this isn't about how TNG gets away with stuff VOY can't.

 

[zar]

The very CONCEPT of phasers and photon torpedoes are adapted to.

Yes, the concept of a specific weapon is analogous to the concept of the nature of the universe.

 

[Anwar]

Then why was there no hint AT ALL in BOBW itself that they were definitely coming back?

It was already stated in "Q Who?" and they didn't feel the need to reiterate.

Are you seriously suggesting that Guinan's comment from an episode that aired two years prior is more obvious foreshadowing than a direct closing line like Spock had?

Yes, because she had a better idea what she was talking about that Spock's random conjecture.

What makes this even more ridiculous, coming from you, is that you're always saying they should have completely wiped out the Borg in BOBW, by saying that that one cube carried the entire Borg population -- which means you ARE completely willing to accept the possibility that one cube IS the full force of the Borg, which is the exact opposite of what you're now saying here.

I'm saying I'd have preferred that they all die in BOBW, but taking later events that actually happened into account I have to talk about what actually happened in the show and that means I have to accept that there were lots more Borg out there waiting to invade. Story not resolved.

And how is destroying a fleet of 40 starships NOT a sufficient display of force??

Compared to what Guinan described happening to her world, it's not much.

What is this based on?

That after "Q Who?" photon torpedoes never worked on the Borg ever again until they wisely dropped the adaptive ability in FC (which no one ever brings up) and phasers were similarly useless except for random bursts of some random frequency that work for a few seconds before also becoming useless.

Yes, the concept of a specific weapon is analogous to the concept of the nature of the universe.

Storytelling-wise, yes it is. At least concerning the overpowered Borg it was.

 

[RyuRoots]

The very CONCEPT of phasers and photon torpedoes are adapted to.

Funny, is that why phasers keep working once they're modified?

Of course, in FC they smartly drop this and have the Borg ships be damaged by every torpedo and phaser blast that hits them and no one cares.

And you never considered that the Federation found a way to make their phasers and torpedoes more effective for this engagement, even though we've seen that they can adjust phasers on foot?

But this isn't about how TNG gets away with stuff VOY can't.

Then please tell me why you're bringing it up, since no one here has said anything of the sort.

 

[Anwar]

Funny, is that why phasers keep working once they're modified?

And aside from a single instance that lasted for like 2 seconds were any phaser attacks ever useful on the Borg ever again in their TV TNG appearances?

And you never considered that the Federation found a way to make their phasers and torpedoes more effective for this engagement, even though we've seen that they can adjust phasers on foot?

The complaint is that VOY is able to do stuff that canonically we see the rest of the Federation fleet able to do but VOY gets bashed while everyone ignores FC.

Then please tell me why you're bringing it up, since no one here has said anything of the sort.

TNG got away with removing the Borg's adaptive power in FC, no one complains. VOY does NOT remove their adaptive power, merely survives, everyone complains.

See if you can tell why that's rather skewed.

 

[zar]

I'm saying I'd have preferred that they all die in BOBW, but taking later events that actually happened into account I have to talk about what actually happened in the show and that means I have to accept that there were lots more Borg out there waiting to invade. Story not resolved.

In other words, you just admitted to the truth of something I said earlier: The only difference between the Doomsday and the Borg is that future writers took advantage of one and not the other. If TNG and VOY had not made any Borg episodes beyond BOBW, but they brought back the Doomsday machines, your delusional logic would have brought you to the conclusion that TOS was the one that failed to wrap up the story properly.

they wisely dropped the adaptive ability in FC (which no one ever brings up)

I have no idea what you're talking about. Every single weapon they used in FC was adapted to. They only got a few shots before it was useless. They were losing the big space battle until they fired at the weakspot that only Picard knew about -- a tactic that was never used before. It can be assumed that they adapted to the weakspot attack after that, because it was only used once in the movie. There is nothing in the movie that even comes close to suggesting that they are no longer able to adapt. Quite the opposite.

Yes, the concept of a specific weapon is analogous to the concept of the nature of the universe.

Storytelling-wise, yes it is.

What does that even mean? You're hurting my brain.

 

[RyuRoots]

And aside from a single instance that lasted for like 2 seconds were any phaser attacks ever useful on the Borg ever again in their TV TNG appearances?

Duration was never your argument. You said they could adapt to concepts. That they were weak to phaser fire in Best of Both Worlds on infantry until given time to adapt to the new modulations shoots down that idea.

The complaint is that VOY is able to do stuff that canonically we see the rest of the Federation fleet able to do but VOY gets bashed while everyone ignores FC.

And Voyager isn't a Federation fleet. For all we know, that fleet might've found some modulation trick that was only good for that engagement; FC didn't need to address it since the fleet battle was a miniscule part of the film and it wasn't touched on one way or ther other; Voyager doesn't have that luxury since it's the main ship, and Borg ship engagements were bigger parts of those Borg stories, so I don't think it's unreasonable that fans wanted reasonable explanations in the show itself.

TNG got away with removing the Borg's adaptive power in FC, no one complains. VOY does NOT remove their adaptive power, merely survives, everyone complains.

Putting aside that FC didn't remove that power, and in fact was a major obstacle for our heroes; didn't you say that this wasn't ABOUT that? You're being contradictory.

 

[Anwar]

Duration was never your argument. You said they could adapt to concepts. That they were weak to phaser fire in Best of Both Worlds on infantry until given time to adapt to the new modulations shoots down that idea.

Infantry maybe (and that makes sense, the personal shields of a Borg Drone can't be as strong as the Ships' shields), but ship-wise they were impervious to all of the ENT-D's weapons except one phaser that lasted two seconds before it too became useless. All intents and purposes, invulnerable to the entire CONCEPT of phasers and torpedoes, for every episode of TNG they were in after "Q Who?"

And Voyager isn't a Federation fleet. For all we know, that fleet might've found some modulation trick that was only good for that engagement;

The ENT-D's weapons were adapted to within minutes of their first battle with the Borg in "Q Who?" and aside from one random phaser frequency in BOBW they remained useless. The battle in FC went on for hours yet the Borg never adapted to their weapons the entire time? Every shot and torpedo hit caused damage.

Voyager doesn't have that luxury since it's the main ship, and Borg ship engagements were bigger parts of those Borg stories, so I don't think it's unreasonable that fans wanted reasonable explanations in the show itself.

FC showed that Borg ships didn't adapt to weapons fire anymore, why should VOY constantly reiterate that? It too was a post-Wolf 359 ship so it'd have the same advantages those vessels had.

]Putting aside that FC didn't remove that power, and in fact was a major obstacle for our heroes; didn't you say that this wasn't ABOUT that? You're being contradictory.

Thinking about it, I should mention it: FC removed the Borg ship's ability to adapt to weaponry (remember how the ENT-E easily destroyed that Sphere?) and no one cared. The drones, yes, could adapt but the ships not so much. So if FC started the ball rolling, then nothing was wrong with VOY just being true to what that movie showed.

If TNG and VOY had not made any Borg episodes beyond BOBW, but they brought back the Doomsday machines, your delusional logic would have brought you to the conclusion that TOS was the one that failed to wrap up the story properly.

If they hadn't made any Borg episodes beyond BOBW and not made it clear that the entire Borg species lived on that one Cube then they still failed to wrap up the story properly since the implication of there being more Borg out there would still be there but with no resolution beyond one encounter.

Every single weapon they used in FC was adapted to

The space battle went on for hours (off-screen) and the weapons did damage to the Cube the entire time. TNG showed that the Borg adapt to weaponry within minutes, so if they could still adapt as well as before then the fleet's weapons would've all been useless after 5 minutes. They were doing damage all the way through. This may have been due to better special effects, or its because the Borg on a ship-level cannot adapt to anything thrown at them within minutes anymore.

What does that even mean? You're hurting my brain.

That story-telling-wise, when dealing with writing a Borg episode, you cannot even use an idea more than once without "ruining" or "emasculating" the Borg. Once you use one "Hack" story, you can't do any more regardless of how different they might be. Once you use a "Natural Phenomena" story, you can't use any others no matter how different they might be.

That's how overpowered and overblown the TNG fan's opinions of the Borg were.

 

[TedShatner10]

While First Contact showed Starfleet ships destroy a huge and powerful Borg ship, it was done at tremendous cost with most of the ships present getting damaged or destroyed, and they had to repeatedly pound it with everything they had.

 

[propita]

Am I the only one finding the posts in this thread too annoying to read?

As for “doing what’s been done”--Didn’t “The Voyage Home” specifically mention the slingshot effect around the sun (from TOS) as their method to go to Earth’s past? Didn’t they also mention that in the episode Assignment: Earth (Gary Seven)?

Nothing wrong with using tried and true methods when they suit the circumstances.

 

[Guy Gardener]

The battle in first contact was a trick.

The queen was just waiting around for Picard to show up because she was not going back in time without her boyfriend.

Otherwise she would have gone back in time back in the DQ and then leisurely strolled back towards earth to bust it up with no resistance.