Matrix Revolutions--Holy CRAP

[RyanKCR]

I love all the movies and I get what was being done. They all are a whole and tell the same story. The clue to the whole this is that the Oracle gambled based on what she had learned about humans and what motivates their actions and used that to bring about the end of the war.

Yeah, the Oracle and the Architect pretty took everyone else for a bunch of chumps. I didn't care for the whole "chessmaster" angle, especially since it reduced the whole story down to two people representing free will vs. fate.

There would have been no peace at all if not for Smith running amok and giving Neo a bargaining chip with which to secure a truce. There's also no guarantee the machines would keep their word.

But another key to it is two things the Arhitect said. First in Reloaded he commented that Neo was different then his predecessor in how he is connect to humanity. Second in Revolutions he told the Oracle that she took a huge gamble. What did she do this time around that was different then the previous 5 times? What did she do that made Neo different then the others before him? What was the gamble? That is what this was all about.

 

[JarodRussell]

The way I see it, they totally forgot about that "Neo had predecessors" thing in Revolutions. It didn't play ANY role at all.

And when Neo asked the Oracle about it, it went basically like this:

"Why didn't you tell me?"
"Yeah, well, because I didn't."
"Uh, ok."

And then the film moved on without ever addressing it again.

 

[RyanKCR]

It did address it with the final conversation between the Oracle and the Architect. What is key is that the Matrix did not reload at the end of Revolutions. Again it is because of what the Oracle did, the gamble.

 

[JarodRussell]

It did address it with the final conversation between the Oracle and the Architect. What is key is that the Matrix did not reload at the end of Revolutions. Again it is because of what the Oracle did, the gamble.

And that gamble was about what? That Neo would go through the other door? Why? How? Did Smith also have predecessors? Who freed and trained the predecessors of Neo? Was Morpheos also coming back again and again? Was it the first time that Neo visited the Machine City, or did that happen before?


See, stuff like this isn't making it more mysterious, it's simply making the plot incoherent to me. It's all just half-baked and not fully thought through.

 

[RyanKCR]

It did address it with the final conversation between the Oracle and the Architect. What is key is that the Matrix did not reload at the end of Revolutions. Again it is because of what the Oracle did, the gamble.

And that gamble was about what? That Neo would go through the other door? Why? How? Did Smith also have predecessors? Who freed and trained the predecessors of Neo? Was Morpheos also coming back again and again? Was it the first time that Neo visited the Machine City, or did that happen before?


See, stuff like this isn't making it more mysterious, it's simply making the plot incoherent to me. It's all just half-baked and not fully thought through.

All the answers to all those questions are there in the movies.

To answer or partially answer some of your questions: This was the first time that Neo visited the Machine City. On read reload of the Matrix the previous Neo would free those who would eventually become the New Zion (as was told by the Architect that Neo would have to choose a group of people to leave the Matrix and restart Zion after the Machines destroyed it.) The gamble was why Neo choose the other door and what it led to. Morpheus was just part of the current group of people freed from the Matrix. Smith was always there in every reboot of the Matrix but was changed when Neo exploded him. As Smith said that part of Neo got copyied to him and instead of returning to the Source as all malfunction programs were supposed to he defied that and remained in the Matrix and became something else. The idea of programs returning to the Source when malfunctioning or becoming obsolete was explained by the Oracle in Reloaded.

 

[Professor Zoom]

I love all the movies and I get what was being done. They all are a whole and tell the same story. The clue to the whole this is that the Oracle gambled based on what she had learned about humans and what motivates their actions and used that to bring about the end of the war.

I get what was done. I GET the movie. It's CRAP though. The acting, the writing. CRAP. It's not like it's a hard movie to get. It's a BAD movie filled with cliche.

 

[stj]

A cliche is a figure of speech that has lost its impact through overuse. What movies and TV shows were The Matrix movies copying?

Many people haven't noticed the incoherence of the action in The Matrix. The sequel makes a lot more sense, but the critics obviously don't value plot logic. So what exactly is the objection, except they don't like the new characters? But, anything that takes Keanu Reeves off screen must be a Good Thing, therefore the sequel must be better than The Matrix. Neo dies at the end, but Keanu Reeves dying is also by definition a Good Thing, as opposed to the preposterous end of The Matrix, where Keanu breaks out hearts by dying but coming back to life. Again, the sequel must therefore be better than The Matrix.

 

[Trekker4747]

If you trust TVTropes (scroll down to the "films" entry), the "Humans as parallel processors" idea was what the first film's story used, but some studio execs thoguht it was too confusing so the back story got changed to what we ended up with.

Dammit, I clicked the link and wound up spending hours reading the articles again. Happens every single time. TV Tropes is more addictive than heroin.

Yeah, that site is fucking crack. Webcrack? I always hesitate to clink a link to TVTropes because I know I'll end up wasting a couple hours.

I got on tropes the other day to and, yeah, ended up reading for hours.

 

[Professor Zoom]

A cliche is a figure of speech that has lost its impact through overuse. What movies and TV shows were The Matrix movies copying?

In Revolutions specifically--Mifune and the Kid, the relationship of the tough captain and the kid who just wants to do well. And of course he dies and so the kid saves the day.

Commander Lock--he's just trying to do his job, but Morpheus just doesn't get it, it's all mysticism, but I'm trying to save these people. We have to defend the loading bay. "Sir, we've already lost the bay."

Niobe and Morpheus, when she's piloting her ship. "Hold on" "I'm trying"

All the characters are rife with cliche, like they have been pulled out of other action films. Rather than creating characters, they pulled them and their dialogue out of other movies.

Many people haven't noticed the incoherence of the action in The Matrix.

Whatchu talking 'bout Willis? How is it incoherent? It's pretty clear. Guy lives life in a simulation, but doesn't know it. Finds out, and that it's a form of "slavery." Is trained to be able to manipulate the simulation. Goes back in, and because he's a very natural programmer, can manipulate it in surprising ways.

The sequel makes a lot more sense, but the critics obviously don't value plot logic. So what exactly is the objection, except they don't like the new characters? But, anything that takes Keanu Reeves off screen must be a Good Thing, therefore the sequel must be better than The Matrix. Neo dies at the end, but Keanu Reeves dying is also by definition a Good Thing, as opposed to the preposterous end of The Matrix, where Keanu breaks out hearts by dying but coming back to life. Again, the sequel must therefore be better than The Matrix.

I think you're using your own logic for this. I don't recall anyone in this thread saying Reeves being off screen must be a Good thing ergo the sequels must be better.

And I know for me, I don't like the new characters because they were poorly written and didn't add much to the story. I wouldn't be complaining if I was engaged in the characters, cared whether or not they lived or die.

 

[Gaith]

I remember hearing a few years ago about some fan-edit project that was supposed to take Reloaded & Revolutions and splice them together into one coherent, 2hr long film. Sounded unlikely though not impossible and I'd be curious to see if they ever managed to pull it off.

http://fanedit.org/all-matrix-fanedits/

 

[LitmusDragon]

Matrix 3 would have been a lot more interesting if Zion had turned out to merely be a different level of the Matrix, as was hinted at by Neo's ability to stop the machines in the real world at the end of the second movie.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

Matrix 3 would have been a lot more interesting if Zion had turned out to merely be a different level of the Matrix, as was hinted at by Neo's ability to stop the machines in the real world at the end of the second movie.

Welcome to a few pages ago. But yeah, I obviously agree with you. Hell, it almost seemed like the Architect was hinting as much during his little speech. But no, they had to be all literal about it.

 

[elaithin]

Bah. I still choose to believe that it was all a part of the Matrix.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

The first movie doesn't rise or fall on Keanu Reeves' acting.

It was a relatively fresh story with interesting developments and twists.

The Oracle makes the plot of The Matrix gibberish. Gibberish is never fresh. Am the One, am not the One, am the One are arbitrary twists, not interesting developments. And prolonged scenes of carnage are not exciting.

A couple things here. The first one has some gibberish, but it's kept at a low level and they let you distract yourself with some bendy spoons. The prolonged scenes of carnage also looked fairly cool.

The second and the third had far more incomprehensible gibberish and far too much exposition with nothing else. The prolonged battle scenes were even longer. Basically, all the possible complaints of the first two, only even longer.

Buying into Neo as a vicarious identification figure is absolutely key to The Matrix. That can't happen with a horrible performance. But according to dogman, Reeves is horrible, therefore The Matrix must be a failed movie and the sequels spend more time with the good actors. The "philosophy" in The Matrix is pretty much limited to a "gee whiz, ain't it cool to think..." The sequel at least finishes the sentence. Idealism is nonsense but there really is novelty in the sequel.

Your heart has to leap when Keanu Reeves comes back to life or The Matrix flops. Get into the typically horrible Reeves performance so much that you buy this nonsense? Something just does not compute.

Not really. Neo coming back to life had an impact for me because I cared about their task and the others. Although, ironically, this lost much of its appeal, since I wasn't really all that surprised or interested when Neo had to save Trinity. I kinda figured that would happen and felt no suspense. Probably because it wasn't as fresh.

So, no, I don't think I can accept your premise. The first movie works in spite of Keanu Reeves and parts of the second and almost all of the third simply don't work (regardless of Reeves).

 

[Harvey]

If an action movie needs a strong actor as the lead, then much of Arnold Schwarzenegger's filmography exists as an aberration. As does Sly Stallone's, for that matter. Keanu Reeves won't be the first, nor the last, "master thespian" to headline an action picture (or even a franchise) while demonstrating the emotional range of a block of wood. Reeves is a fine physical actor, and (especially in the first film) he has a strong supporting cast to back him up.

 

[JarodRussell]

If an action movie needs a strong actor as the lead, then much of Arnold Schwarzenegger's filmography exists as an aberration. As does Sly Stallone's, for that matter. Keanu Reeves won't be the first, nor the last, "master thespian" to headline an action picture (or even a franchise) while demonstrating the emotional range of a block of wood. Reeves is a fine physical actor, and (especially in the first film) he has a strong supporting cast to back him up.

Only that Sly is a strong actor every time he wants to be.

 

[Shazam!]

I think if The Matrix trilogy had been done as a manga film, everyone would be bumming it.

That's basically how I see it anyway; as a live action manga movie.

 

[stj]

In Revolutions specifically--Mifune and the Kid, the relationship of the tough captain and the kid who just wants to do well. And of course he dies and so the kid saves the day.

Commander Lock--he's just trying to do his job, but Morpheus just doesn't get it, it's all mysticism, but I'm trying to save these people. We have to defend the loading bay. "Sir, we've already lost the bay."

Niobe and Morpheus, when she's piloting her ship. "Hold on" "I'm trying"

All the characters are rife with cliche, like they have been pulled out of other action films. Rather than creating characters, they pulled them and their dialogue out of other movies.

The mysterious beautiful woman who leads an everyman into a nightmare world of intrigue is a staple (aka "cliche") of noir film. (That would be Trinity, in The Matrix.) The mystically wise Black woman might have been taken from Stephen King's The Stand. (That would be the Oracle, in The Matrix.) And I'll raise your one line of dialogue from Niobe and Morpheus by citing the rest of the crew of the Nebuchadnezzar. (Tank, Dozer, Cypher, the Kid who gets scragged, etc.) The Matrix had quite enough cliche characters itself. That's not why The Matrix is better than the sequel, which is false premise boobytrapping the criticisms of the sequel.

Whatchu talking 'bout Willis? How is it incoherent? It's pretty clear. Guy lives life in a simulation, but doesn't know it. Finds out, and that it's a form of "slavery." Is trained to be able to manipulate the simulation. Goes back in, and because he's a very natural programmer, can manipulate it in surprising ways.

Programming is like solving word problems in algebra class, not throwing a ball, so "very natural programmer" doesn't cut it. The Oracle is the fount of the action in The Matrix but we know nothing about her motives, origins, nature or goals. The Oracle must somehow be able to foresee what happens in the supposed real world or she couldn't have known Neo was the One. It's not just Cypher was taking dead aim, any disease, accident or violence could have deranged her virtual world plans. And it's still true there is no coherent reason for Neo to be hinted to be the one by Morpheus, then told no by the Oracle, then turn out to be the One after all.

People don't say that Keanu Reeves dying is a good thing but if he is a horrible actor, it must be. (That conundrum is easy to solve, which is to simply accept that Reeves isn't horrible. There's a long distance between being competent and being great, just as there's a long distance between horrible and competent.)

 

[Professor Zoom]

The mysterious beautiful woman who leads an everyman into a nightmare world of intrigue is a staple (aka "cliche") of noir film. (That would be Trinity, in The Matrix.) The mystically wise Black woman might have been taken from Stephen King's The Stand. (That would be the Oracle, in The Matrix.) And I'll raise your one line of dialogue from Niobe and Morpheus by citing the rest of the crew of the Nebuchadnezzar. (Tank, Dozer, Cypher, the Kid who gets scragged, etc.) The Matrix had quite enough cliche characters itself. That's not why The Matrix is better than the sequel, which is false premise boobytrapping the criticisms of the sequel.

You feel in the first, they were cliches. I think they were staples of the genre used in an interesting way. We disagree.

I think in the last movie especially, the new characters weren't used in an interesting way, I think they were flat and we could see the dialogue a mile away.

There's tropes and then there are cliches.

People don't say that Keanu Reeves dying is a good thing but if he is a horrible actor, it must be. (That conundrum is easy to solve, which is to simply accept that Reeves isn't horrible. There's a long distance between being competent and being great, just as there's a long distance between horrible and competent.)

There's not a conundrum there. There's no A=A thing going on. Just because an actor isn't very good, doesn't mean I want the character to die. His skill set, actually, fit in very well in the first movie. For most of it he just has to look confused and disbelieving. That he does well. It's the emotional stuff and god like confidence in the 2nd and 3rd movie he does poorly.

 

[Jack Bauer]

The sequels have some really cool action scenes but it's wrapped up in incomprehensible mumbojumbo and way too much exposition. I still don't know what the hell the sequels were about.