• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

High school cheerleader kicked off squad; Refused to cheer for rapist

Re: High school cheerleader kicked off squad; Refused to cheer for rap

Fine. get a picture of this chearleeder and a picture of the guy and we'll see who was the victim.

In this case, we're not talking about a thin, gangly, weak nerd. We're talking about a guy who plays football and basketball and a girl who is girly enough to be a chearleader.

Let's get some perspective here.
 
Re: High school cheerleader kicked off squad; Refused to cheer for rap

The girl described four attackers. Two were convicted, one was a juvenile like her and wasn't charged as an adult, and a fourth who might have held her down or watched was not charged because he assisted police as a witness. That doesn't sound like a consensual situation to me.

If she was severely intoxicated as you suggest she could not give informed consent. As a minor she technically could not give informed consent either, but since the two oldest guys are within three years of her age under Texas law it's not statutory rape.

Whatever the circumstances were and no matter how much the sentences were watered down, they were convicted. The guy should not be at the same school she is, where she is forced to keep a low profile to avoid him on campus and has to cheer for him at games.

The details still are not clear. Why were only two of the four arrested and convicted? That's not doubting they might have been there but I still find situations like this are very charged and dangerous stories to take at face value. One cooperated with police for immunity, so what about the fourth?

Of course it doesn't sound consensual and in all likelyhood it was not, but we don't know who instigated an encounter, we only know how it ended. We don't know all the facts. And we don't know if it was "four jocks" who unambiguously raped her either.

All that we're told is what she said. People not only exaggerate memories but they also construct them when they cannot recall all the facts. Such as being drunk (I never said she was drunk or had any alcohol or if she did, how much it was) or going through a traumatic experience. This is why police so rarely rely on eye-witness testimony alone. People misremember things too easily.

Still I'm in agreement that no matter the circumstances it was assault and nonconsensual and the school as well as the students involved really screwed up by allowing this situation to occur afterwards. The students involved should not have been allowed to join any sports, should have been given some kind of monitoring to prevent interactions from taking place and avoided any conflicts.

In all ways the school failed the girl and itself for allowing this situation on top of the previous one.

Starting sex doesn't entitle one to "finish" if at any point during the act she says "no" or "stop" he has to because beyond that it's rape.

And I never said that, did I? Don't put words in my mouth or make interpetations that clearly are not there. It's not only insulting but a very inaccurate implication that you're making about me. She might have flirted with him or even started to make out with him but it doesn't excuse it.

It does however go back to my previous remark about how it's not a good idea to drink to a point of inhibition at a party or have sex while drunk, which is more likely to happen if the first point is ignored. You don't know what happened any more than I do and I'm not making any assumptions about who did or did not do what or start anything. All I did was provide a possible venue for how this began, not that it was how it began.

There are plenty of women out there who are angry drunks and who could quite easily kick my male ass, whether they're sober or intoxicated. So, yeah, that legal position is pretty sexist.

This is really beside the point.

The point is: have you ever heard of a case in which a drunken woman assaulted and raped a man?

I'm not saying it doesn't happen. Just that I've never heard of it happening, aside from something I read in Omni magazine years ago. The reverse, by contrast, happens all the time.

It's not sexist to acknowledge this fact--just as it's not sexist to acknowledge the fact that most murderers are male--or, for that matter, that most murder victims are male--a fact that tends to be overlooked in discussions about violence against women.

A charge of sexism would only be appropriate if female rapists were not punished for their crimes, or if drunkenness was accepted as a defence for female rapists, but not male rapists.

There is sexism in our legal systems, and in the social attitudes which underpin these systems. And sex discrimination does affect both women and men: I have heard of cases like the one Data Holmes mentioned, where men were accused of rape and assumed to be guilty, until proven innocent--the reverse of what should happen. As a male professor in a position of authority over female students, I am acutely conscious of the fact that it would take just one false and malicious accusation to blight my whole career, and I adjust my own behaviour accordingly.

But it's not sexist to acknowledge real differences in male and female behaviour--so long as you keep in mind that there are exceptions to every generalization.

It happens far more than you think. Although as you pointed out seemingly unknowingly, sexism in society is the reason it's underreported. Men are less likely to report being raped, either by a woman or especially by another man because of the same reason women often feel stigmatized: Sexism.

A man who is raped (no matter how or by who) is seen as effiminate and weak, someone who probably "asked for it" or was a willing participant. Making the assumption it happens less than it does because it's underreported is a gross error in judgement. Being educated as a professor you realize that people are judged all the time and being accused of rape is one of those stigmas that people cannot overcome easily. Being a male and being raped is seen as an even worse stigma and one that men would be afraid to admit to.

It's easy to assume men are always the instigator but women are no less capable and it does not take much to incapcitate a person to take advantage of them.

And to head off any assumptions, no I've never been involved in a rape, either as a victim or perpetrator but I'm all too aware of the realities behind this that I'm not about to let an opportunity to discuss it go by.
 
Re: High school cheerleader kicked off squad; Refused to cheer for rap

Fine. get a picture of this chearleeder and a picture of the guy and we'll see who was the victim.

In this case, we're not talking about a thin, gangly, weak nerd. We're talking about a guy who plays football and basketball and a girl who is girly enough to be a chearleader.

Let's get some perspective here.

1) The idea that just because a guy is big means he can't be sexually assaulted is offensive and leads to problems like the one I talked about above.

2) I already stated earlier on about how this case is totally fucked up and I'm on the side of the woman.

3) WTF is girly enough to be a cheerleader?
 
Re: High school cheerleader kicked off squad; Refused to cheer for rap

The girl described four attackers. Two were convicted, one was a juvenile like her and wasn't charged as an adult, and a fourth who might have held her down or watched was not charged because he assisted police as a witness. That doesn't sound like a consensual situation to me.

If she was severely intoxicated as you suggest she could not give informed consent. As a minor she technically could not give informed consent either, but since the two oldest guys are within three years of her age under Texas law it's not statutory rape.

Whatever the circumstances were and no matter how much the sentences were watered down, they were convicted. The guy should not be at the same school she is, where she is forced to keep a low profile to avoid him on campus and has to cheer for him at games.

The details still are not clear. Why were only two of the four arrested and convicted?

The answer is in the part you quoted.
 
Re: High school cheerleader kicked off squad; Refused to cheer for rap

The point is: have you ever heard of a case in which a drunken woman assaulted and raped a man?

A woman abusing a man be it physically or sexually is one of the most underreported crimes out there right now because most men are too ashamed to admit it happened to them as they'll see themselves as weak.

That's a red herring too. There are thousands of unreported man on woman rapes. I would hazard more than the other way round. I don't hear much hand-wringing about that.
 
Re: High school cheerleader kicked off squad; Refused to cheer for rap

What. The. Fuck. When I went to school if you were convicted of a crime and spent time in jail, you were instantly expelled, no matter who you were. But somehow a star athlete in Texas is above the law. That's just not right.
 
Re: High school cheerleader kicked off squad; Refused to cheer for rap

1) The idea that just because a guy is big means he can't be sexually assaulted is offensive and leads to problems like the one I talked about above.

2) I already stated earlier on about how this case is totally fucked up and I'm on the side of the woman.

3) WTF is girly enough to be a cheerleader?

1) I think Im an average size woman and there's no way in heck I could sexually assault a 6ft plus, 200 pound plus man.

2) Didn't mean to imply otherwise.

3) not butch
 
Re: High school cheerleader kicked off squad; Refused to cheer for rap

Hey, GWB was a cheerleader. :p
 
Re: High school cheerleader kicked off squad; Refused to cheer for rap

In high school?
 
Re: High school cheerleader kicked off squad; Refused to cheer for rap

The girl described four attackers. Two were convicted, one was a juvenile like her and wasn't charged as an adult, and a fourth who might have held her down or watched was not charged because he assisted police as a witness. That doesn't sound like a consensual situation to me.

If she was severely intoxicated as you suggest she could not give informed consent. As a minor she technically could not give informed consent either, but since the two oldest guys are within three years of her age under Texas law it's not statutory rape.

Whatever the circumstances were and no matter how much the sentences were watered down, they were convicted. The guy should not be at the same school she is, where she is forced to keep a low profile to avoid him on campus and has to cheer for him at games.

The details still are not clear. Why were only two of the four arrested and convicted?

The answer is in the part you quoted.
I only saw two of four convicted with one given immunity. I would have assumed a minor would be charged with something rather than "oh you raped someone? That's okay you're a kid." Even for Texas that's weak.
 
Re: High school cheerleader kicked off squad; Refused to cheer for rap

The details still are not clear. Why were only two of the four arrested and convicted?

The answer is in the part you quoted.
I only saw two of four convicted with one given immunity. I would have assumed a minor would be charged with something rather than "oh you raped someone? That's okay you're a kid." Even for Texas that's weak.

And the fourth was a juvenile, so he wasn't charged as an adult. The implication being that he was still charged for the crime. Or it could be he wasn't. But I don't see how he would get off scot free if the others faced prosecution as well.
 
Re: High school cheerleader kicked off squad; Refused to cheer for rap

What. The. ****. When I went to school if you were convicted of a crime and spent time in jail, you were instantly expelled, no matter who you were. But somehow a star athlete in Texas is above the law. That's just not right.

Agreed.
 
Re: High school cheerleader kicked off squad; Refused to cheer for rap

This is rigoddamndiculous.

The guy raped her, served time after bargaining down his sentence (community service and anger management for raping a girl, assisted by two of his friends?), and she gets kicked off the team because she refused to cheer his name (and only his name) after having been to every event all along since she was first assaulted?

On top of this, she has the gumption to sue the school, only to have the Texas courts uphold the school's decision.

Her silence apparently "constituted substantial interference with the work of the school because, as a cheerleader, H.S. was at the basketball game for the purpose of cheering, a position she undertook voluntarily." Well, I'm sure H.S. never expected to be "volunteering" to cheer for someone who had assaulted her. And the idea that by just being silent during Bolton's free throws, a barely noticeable act, was "substantial interference with the work of the school" — um, we're talking extracurricular sports, not classroom disruption — makes little sense.

Excuse me, it's more than just "makes little sense." It's goddamn incomprehensible.

What the fuck is going on in Texas that this could happen?

hey, it' the state that first put George W. Bush in a political office. Need any more be said? ;)
 
Re: High school cheerleader kicked off squad; Refused to cheer for rap

BTW, I am from Texas, and not all school districts are like this. It is a big state, and you cannot blame the state for something one school district is doing.
 
Re: High school cheerleader kicked off squad; Refused to cheer for rap

The girl described four attackers. Two were convicted, one was a juvenile like her and wasn't charged as an adult, and a fourth who might have held her down or watched was not charged because he assisted police as a witness. That doesn't sound like a consensual situation to me.

If she was severely intoxicated as you suggest she could not give informed consent. As a minor she technically could not give informed consent either, but since the two oldest guys are within three years of her age under Texas law it's not statutory rape.

Whatever the circumstances were and no matter how much the sentences were watered down, they were convicted. The guy should not be at the same school she is, where she is forced to keep a low profile to avoid him on campus and has to cheer for him at games.

The details still are not clear. Why were only two of the four arrested and convicted? That's not doubting they might have been there but I still find situations like this are very charged and dangerous stories to take at face value. One cooperated with police for immunity, so what about the fourth?

Like I said, the guys who were 17 and 18 at the time were tried and convicted as adults, a 16 year old was turned over to the county juvenile correctional facility but his name was not released since he was a minor, and a fourth guy who was in the room (whether watching or actively holding her down is unknown) but wasn't charged since he acted as a witness against the others.

Of course it doesn't sound consensual and in all likelyhood it was not, but we don't know who instigated an encounter, we only know how it ended. We don't know all the facts. And we don't know if it was "four jocks" who unambiguously raped her either.

Who cares who "instigated the encounter"? It doesn't make it less of a rape if the woman came on to you before changing her mind and saying "no" later on.

All that we're told is what she said. People not only exaggerate memories but they also construct them when they cannot recall all the facts. Such as being drunk (I never said she was drunk or had any alcohol or if she did, how much it was) or going through a traumatic experience. This is why police so rarely rely on eye-witness testimony alone. People misremember things too easily.

No, there's her testimony and the other boy who was in the room that acted as a witness as well.

You're acting as if this was an untried case. It went to court and they were convicted. Now obviously mistakes can be made and people can be wrongly convicted but in the vast majority of cases things usually turn out right. You're not privy to the full amount of evidence presented in the case and are acting as if they went solely on the girl's word alone.

If she was intoxicated it sure didn't seem to prevent her from IDing all three guys who assaulted her and one who was in the room doing who know what. And you did say "The question I always have in these cases is: How drunk was he? How drunk was she?" which is why I brought up the part about how if she was (possibly) severely intoxicated she couldn't give informed consent and it is still rape.

You're trying too hard. I agree that people shouldn't jump to conclusions, but the two who were tried as adults were convicted and the third spent time in juvenile detention. It's not foolproof, but nine times out of ten that probably means there was something to the case.
 
Re: High school cheerleader kicked off squad; Refused to cheer for rap

I think he's trying to play "Devil's Advocate"... or something but he's also trying to float in the middle so he's more trying to play Purgatory's Advocate(?).

He's trying to assign "Neutral Blame" which, really, is stupid in a case where a young woman was raped. No matter the circumstances, it seems she didn't want it, tried to stop it, and it didn't. And, heck, it sounds like she wasn't just raped she was gang raped!
 
Re: High school cheerleader kicked off squad; Refused to cheer for rap

The site has a link to send the school a letter. I sent them one, and I posted this on other forums and my facebook. I'd really suggest everyone else do the same. I'd like for this to become national news so the people who did this have to admit they swept a girl under the carpet for a fucking basketball game.

Yet another reason to detest professional sports; idol worship to the level of godliness. The president can't legally rape anyone, but a high school basketball captain can? Horseshit.
 
Re: High school cheerleader kicked off squad; Refused to cheer for rap

The site has a link to send the school a letter. I sent them one, and I posted this on other forums and my facebook. I'd really suggest everyone else do the same. I'd like for this to become national news so the people who did this have to admit they swept a girl under the carpet for a fucking basketball game.

Yet another reason to detest professional sports; idol worship to the level of godliness. The president can't legally rape anyone, but a high school basketball captain can? Horseshit.

Care to paste the letter here?

It may be worthwhile to send any small links to the aritcle/incident to national news companies (CNN, NBC, ABC, etc.) as it's possible their researchers haven't seen it yet for it to be a blip on their radar.
 
Re: High school cheerleader kicked off squad; Refused to cheer for rap

As the victim of an attempted acquaintance rape who actually took it to school officials back when I was in college, with disastrous results ... NOTHING about this story surprises me.
 
Re: High school cheerleader kicked off squad; Refused to cheer for rap

The point is: have you ever heard of a case in which a drunken woman assaulted and raped a man?

A woman abusing a man be it physically or sexually is one of the most underreported crimes out there right now because most men are too ashamed to admit it happened to them as they'll see themselves as weak.

It absolutely happens. A woman could easily take advantage of a man being drugged, drunk, or even unconscious. Sorry to be blunt, but in this day and age it would not be impossible to slip some poor soul a Viagra. And there are also reactions that the male body can have as a result of fear and the right kind of stimulus, if we assume that he is in a state to be aware that he's being coerced. (And remember, a firearm is the big equalizer in that case.) You would be surprised what might be physically possible.

But even before we contemplate that awful scenario, there are many women who beat up on their husbands and because our society discourages such men from seeking the resources they need, many go on being victims who know that they have absolutely no hope. We cannot stand for this anymore.

NO ONE should have to expect that if they are mistreated, they will not be protected. Not this girl, not any woman, nor any man.
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top