High school cheerleader kicked off squad; Refused to cheer for rapist

[Teelie]

Re: High school cheerleader kicked off squad; Refused to cheer for rap

What I mean is when a person is taken forcibly against their will in a situation like that, there is no doubt it was rape. Whether it's an alley or her bedroom or anywhere else, when there's no alcohol involved or no impairment, there is no question it was nonconsensual from the start.

The question that I always have in situations like this is; how drunk was he, how drunk was she and how much of this started off as consensual before there was a second thought or change of mind? It could very well be she never consented in the first place and he took advantage of her. Or it's possible she started consenting (legal or not) and changed her mind and he went ahead anyways.

Regardless of how it played out, it's still sexual assault at the least which is still rape, just not so violent as the former example. He got away with it too easily too. There is no question on that either.

 

[Data Holmes]

Re: High school cheerleader kicked off squad; Refused to cheer for rap

It was not a clear rape in the traditionally viewed sense that he grabbed her and raped her in some dark alley but at an alcohol-fueled party where inhibitions and common sense are reduced.

It may not be a "clear" rape, but it's a *legal* rape. Assuming the girl really was drunk.

Although I think there is still a question, would the guy have been expected to know she was drunk. If she's obviously sloshed, then he should have been convicted on the spot. But if she was not noticeably drunk, just legally intoxicated (it is possible for somebody to be drunk but not LOOK it), it might be more complicated in assigning culpability to him.

What if he was just as "sloshed" as she was and she happened to be the aggressor/instigator of the sex act?

There was a case in my town of a girl who reported a rape after she had sex with a boy at a high school drinking party like three years ago. He was all set to be crucified by the law until someone came forward with a video which showed her approaching him, making out aggressively and pulling him toward/into another room, while everyone in the main room hooted and cat called, with her smiling and making faces at her girlfriends.

She withdrew her report and the charges were never filed.


However, when the girl woke up after that night with no clothing on next to this guy she was sure he had taken advantage of her. She didn't remember what had happened the night before or any of her antics while she was drunk and never thought she would have done such a thing.

Had some fool not had that camera that night, that guy would have been screwed big time.


That is the biggest problem with the your position. I mean, if you consent to drinking a substance you know can limit or remove your inhibitions, than are you not by default acknowledging to some degree that you are accepting/consenting to any actions you commit while under the influence of said substance?

Note that the above is a general hypothetical offshoot of your post and that I still think that the guy in question in the case from the OP is no doubt the typical Jock Barbarian, who has been given coverage by a school system which sees anything as forgivable so long as they "perform as intended on the field game day".

 

[Deckerd]

Re: High school cheerleader kicked off squad; Refused to cheer for rap

The question that I always have in situations like this is; how drunk was he, how drunk was she and how much of this started off as consensual before there was a second thought or change of mind? It could very well be she never consented in the first place and he took advantage of her. Or it's possible she started consenting (legal or not) and changed her mind and he went ahead anyways.

In our country alcohol is not a mitigating factor. The crux of the matter is that a drunk woman is a sexual threat to nobody. A drunk man, on the other hand, is bigger, stronger and has impaired his ability to think.

 

[Data Holmes]

Re: High school cheerleader kicked off squad; Refused to cheer for rap

The question that I always have in situations like this is; how drunk was he, how drunk was she and how much of this started off as consensual before there was a second thought or change of mind? It could very well be she never consented in the first place and he took advantage of her. Or it's possible she started consenting (legal or not) and changed her mind and he went ahead anyways.

In our country alcohol is not a mitigating factor. The crux of the matter is that a drunk woman is a sexual threat to nobody. A drunk man, on the other hand, is bigger, stronger and has impaired his ability to think.

That's a little bit of a sexist position...

 

[Deckerd]

Re: High school cheerleader kicked off squad; Refused to cheer for rap

It's a little bit of a legal position.

 

[Data Holmes]

Re: High school cheerleader kicked off squad; Refused to cheer for rap

It's a little bit of a legal position.

yes, but a sexist one...

 

[Deckerd]

Re: High school cheerleader kicked off squad; Refused to cheer for rap

Only if you believe that in a drunk situation, men and women are equal.

 

[Dancing Doctor]

Re: High school cheerleader kicked off squad; Refused to cheer for rap

What happened to the other two guys involved in the rape?

 

[Locutus of Bored]

Re: High school cheerleader kicked off squad; Refused to cheer for rap

BTW, that was Louisiana that used to give the death penalty for rape, not Texas. And the Supreme Court unfortunately struck down that law.

Unfortunately?

I don't support the death penalty under any circumstances, but I can at least understand those who support it in murder cases under the concept of an eye for an eye. While rape is a horrifying crime that can psychologically scar a victim for life, the victims are alive and have a chance to recover. To escalate the retribution to death is an appalling idea (and before someone suggests it, that doesn't mean the prisoner should be raped themselves) that doesn't even have the weak justification of an eye for an eye.

There have been numerous overturned murder convictions where the prisoner was on death row. Rape convictions where the potential exists to claim there was a rape when it was actually consensual only make that possibility worse, as does that fact that it's typically minorities who bear the brunt of those false convictions. At least they can be exonerated if they aren't dead.
________________________________

Black men accused of raping white women face a greater risk of false conviction than other rape defendants; and young suspects, those under 18, are at greater risk of false confession than other suspects."

Garrett also found that exonerated convicts were more apt to be members of minority groups than the prison population generally. For instance, 73 percent of the convicts cleared of rape charges were black or Hispanic, as compared with 37 percent of all rape convicts.

Link

Keep reading the story. The guy sounds like an total ass "no hard feelings" towards the girl for his involvement, but the assault was said to happen at a party with drinking which leads to how much was consensual (at least initially) and how much was just drunken stupidity on both his and/or her part?

The girl described four attackers. Two were convicted, one was a juvenile like her and wasn't charged as an adult, and a fourth who might have held her down or watched was not charged because he assisted police as a witness. That doesn't sound like a consensual situation to me.

If she was severely intoxicated as you suggest she could not give informed consent. As a minor she technically could not give informed consent either, but since the two oldest guys are within three years of her age under Texas law it's not statutory rape.

Whatever the circumstances were and no matter how much the sentences were watered down, they were convicted. The guy should not be at the same school she is, where she is forced to keep a low profile to avoid him on campus and has to cheer for him at games.

 

[Data Holmes]

Re: High school cheerleader kicked off squad; Refused to cheer for rap

The girl described four attackers. Two were convicted, one was a juvenile like her and wasn't charged as an adult, and a fourth who might have held her down or watched was not charged because he assisted police as a witness. That doesn't sound like a consensual situation to me.

That sounds like a full blown rape/attack with no ambiguity at all. Barbarian Jocks with the run of the town.



Seriously, when will we reach a point where sports no longer carry such backing as to allow for the cover/support of neanderthals like this.

 

[MANT!]

Re: High school cheerleader kicked off squad; Refused to cheer for rap

The girl described four attackers. Two were convicted, one was a juvenile like her and wasn't charged as an adult, and a fourth who might have held her down or watched was not charged because he assisted police as a witness. That doesn't sound like a consensual situation to me.

That sounds like a full blown rape/attack with no ambiguity at all. Barbarian Jocks with the run of the town.



Seriously, when will we reach a point where sports no longer carry such backing as to allow for the cover/support of neanderthals like this.

Not soon enough..but it is Texas...so it'll be a long time..

 

[Data Holmes]

Re: High school cheerleader kicked off squad; Refused to cheer for rap

The girl described four attackers. Two were convicted, one was a juvenile like her and wasn't charged as an adult, and a fourth who might have held her down or watched was not charged because he assisted police as a witness. That doesn't sound like a consensual situation to me.

That sounds like a full blown rape/attack with no ambiguity at all. Barbarian Jocks with the run of the town.



Seriously, when will we reach a point where sports no longer carry such backing as to allow for the cover/support of neanderthals like this.

Not soon enough..but it is Texas...so it'll be a long time..

Dude, this goes on everywhere. And, despite how much fun people take in ragging on it, not just in Texas, and not just with sports.

There is a societal position that has formed that says if you perform a popular or "important" service to society, that you can garner a certain level of protection against punishment for dangerous antisocial or illegal activities by the very society which sets the laws making such actions punishable.

No one should be above the law, period.

 

[Deckerd]

Re: High school cheerleader kicked off squad; Refused to cheer for rap

Diplomatic immunity has always seemed grotesquely unfair too.

 

[Admiral Shran]

Re: High school cheerleader kicked off squad; Refused to cheer for rap

In our country alcohol is not a mitigating factor. The crux of the matter is that a drunk woman is a sexual threat to nobody. A drunk man, on the other hand, is bigger, stronger and has impaired his ability to think.

That's a little bit of a sexist position...

It's a little bit of a legal position.

yes, but a sexist one...

Only if you believe that in a drunk situation, men and women are equal.

There are plenty of women out there who are angry drunks and who could quite easily kick my male ass, whether they're sober or intoxicated. So, yeah, that legal position is pretty sexist.

As for this case....

W.... T.... F!!!!! Seriously, what are these people thinking?

 

[SPCTRE]

Re: High school cheerleader kicked off squad; Refused to cheer for rap

Ugh.

QFT

 

[Trekker4747]

Re: High school cheerleader kicked off squad; Refused to cheer for rap

What I mean is when a person is taken forcibly against their will in a situation like that, there is no doubt it was rape. Whether it's an alley or her bedroom or anywhere else, when there's no alcohol involved or no impairment, there is no question it was nonconsensual from the start.

The question that I always have in situations like this is; how drunk was he, how drunk was she and how much of this started off as consensual before there was a second thought or change of mind? It could very well be she never consented in the first place and he took advantage of her. Or it's possible she started consenting (legal or not) and changed her mind and he went ahead anyways.

Regardless of how it played out, it's still sexual assault at the least which is still rape, just not so violent as the former example. He got away with it too easily too. There is no question on that either.

Starting sex doesn't entitle one to "finish" if at any point during the act she says "no" or "stop" he has to because beyond that it's rape.

 

[Goliath]

Re: High school cheerleader kicked off squad; Refused to cheer for rap

There are plenty of women out there who are angry drunks and who could quite easily kick my male ass, whether they're sober or intoxicated. So, yeah, that legal position is pretty sexist.

This is really beside the point.

The point is: have you ever heard of a case in which a drunken woman assaulted and raped a man?

I'm not saying it doesn't happen. Just that I've never heard of it happening, aside from something I read in Omni magazine years ago. The reverse, by contrast, happens all the time.

It's not sexist to acknowledge this fact--just as it's not sexist to acknowledge the fact that most murderers are male--or, for that matter, that most murder victims are male--a fact that tends to be overlooked in discussions about violence against women.

A charge of sexism would only be appropriate if female rapists were not punished for their crimes, or if drunkenness was accepted as a defence for female rapists, but not male rapists.

There is sexism in our legal systems, and in the social attitudes which underpin these systems. And sex discrimination does affect both women and men: I have heard of cases like the one Data Holmes mentioned, where men were accused of rape and assumed to be guilty, until proven innocent--the reverse of what should happen. As a male professor in a position of authority over female students, I am acutely conscious of the fact that it would take just one false and malicious accusation to blight my whole career, and I adjust my own behaviour accordingly.

But it's not sexist to acknowledge real differences in male and female behaviour--so long as you keep in mind that there are exceptions to every generalization.

 

[JoeZhang]

Re: High school cheerleader kicked off squad; Refused to cheer for rap

The legal stuff is a red herring to me - I used to work as a teacher and at any school I've worked at, if a student was convicted of raping another student, he'd be asked to leave - that would be the start and end of it. The headmaster of that place must be a crackhead.

 

[Jenee]

Re: High school cheerleader kicked off squad; Refused to cheer for rap

The question that I always have in situations like this is; how drunk was he, how drunk was she and how much of this started off as consensual before there was a second thought or change of mind? It could very well be she never consented in the first place and he took advantage of her. Or it's possible she started consenting (legal or not) and changed her mind and he went ahead anyways.

In our country alcohol is not a mitigating factor. The crux of the matter is that a drunk woman is a sexual threat to nobody. A drunk man, on the other hand, is bigger, stronger and has impaired his ability to think.

That's a little bit of a sexist position...

But, is it incorrect? Regardless of the legal position.

 

[sidious618]

Re: High school cheerleader kicked off squad; Refused to cheer for rap

The point is: have you ever heard of a case in which a drunken woman assaulted and raped a man?

A woman abusing a man be it physically or sexually is one of the most underreported crimes out there right now because most men are too ashamed to admit it happened to them as they'll see themselves as weak.