High school cheerleader kicked off squad; Refused to cheer for rapist

[Bears Discover Fire]

Re: High school cheerleader kicked off squad; Refused to cheer for rap

^^^ If I recall correctly the person in question is a member of the basketball team, not football. Or is it both?



Well, it's the eye-for-an-eye mentality, which many people still encourage.

I'm not condoning the mentality, but I think it springs from a collective visceral frustration with acts so henious that, short of visiting the same act upon the offender, any punishment is inadequate both in making the offender understand and acknowledge the damage he's done and deterring him from further violence.

In short, it's impossible to reconcile an orderly and just existence with wrongs that no amount of punitive action or restitution can right, but the eye-for-an-eye mentality is an extremely imperfect attempt at it.

I think that's giving people too much credit. I doubt most folks care about the perp "acknowledging" or "understanding" the gravity of his actions. They just want him to suffer for what he's done. And that's a perfectly understandable reaction but it is not a good basis for a justice system.

I don't think it's too much credit at all. Of course they want the perp to suffer. Suffering leads to understanding if not redemption - a bedrock principle of the deeply engrained, largely subconcious, inextricably entangled Puritan philosophy which continues to pervade collective thought in the US, where the calls to chop it off, hang 'em high and fry 'em hot typically originiate in these discussions.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

Re: High school cheerleader kicked off squad; Refused to cheer for rap

There are problems and then there are "problems." When almost 90% of all violent crimes are committed by men, it seems a little beside the point to then jump in and say, "but female-on-male violence is a problem, too!" It deserves attention but as it is a vastly unequal phenomenon it makes little sense to give it the same focus as violent crime perpetrated by males (against either sex.)

I also wonder if there isn't some kind of collective narcissism involved. People see a particular person (a woman) representing a larger social problem (male-on-female rape) and then have to jump in and call attention to a similar issue that is more self-serving in its scope. "But women also rape men! Why isn't anyone upset about that?"

I mean, can't we just agree that rape and violence are bad no matter who is doing it to whom, or why? I always feel like the people who take a thread about a specific male-on-female rape and turn it into a general discussion of female-on-male rape are trying to make it a contest. Which group suffers more indignities? Who has more right to be upset? For fuck's sake, violence isn't a competition.

We can't agree though. You make the case for why people are talking about women not always being the victim. You very much incorrectly say 90% of men cause violent crime, then dismiss however carefully, that it's not as common as it is for men to be the victim. You think women being raped is under reported? Try looking at how many men are raped and unreported. Or just outright abused or victimized by women, especially their mothers or wives. You call it narcisstic, I call it making it publically known this goes on.

Uh, actually, it's not incorrect to say that almost 90% (87.5% according to the stats I looked at, actually) of violent crimes are committed by men. I mean, look it up. Compare male prison population vs. female. Check the stats. It's all there. Men commit the vast, vast majority of violent crimes--and commit the most crimes, period.

I didn't say anything about anyone's rapes being underreported. It's well known that rapes across the board are underreported, regardless of the genders of the perp or victim.

It's the exact thing that you're saying (don't discuss it) that makes it harder to find out just how common it is. You'd rather focus on making men out to be the problem behind 90% of violent crime and ignore that women are often criminals too and can be rapists or abusers. You are making it out to be something else and discouraging discussion of the other side of this issue.

I didn't say "don't discuss it," I said not to be disingenuous and act like female-on-male rape is as epidemic a problem as vice versa.

Again, with those assumptions people make. It's not "who suffers more" it's why are men allowed to suffer in silence while women are encouraged to come out and admit it?

You're the one who is taking my post to mean "men shouldn't talk about being raped." I never said that. I said the degree to which men suffer sexual violence at the hands of women is nowhere in the same league as male-on-female rape. The problems are of an entirely different scale.

You complain about people misunderstanding your posts, but then you go and do the exact same thing to others.

I'm not condoning the mentality, but I think it springs from a collective visceral frustration with acts so henious that, short of visiting the same act upon the offender, any punishment is inadequate both in making the offender understand and acknowledge the damage he's done and deterring him from further violence.

In short, it's impossible to reconcile an orderly and just existence with wrongs that no amount of punitive action or restitution can right, but the eye-for-an-eye mentality is an extremely imperfect attempt at it.

I think that's giving people too much credit. I doubt most folks care about the perp "acknowledging" or "understanding" the gravity of his actions. They just want him to suffer for what he's done. And that's a perfectly understandable reaction but it is not a good basis for a justice system.

I don't think it's too much credit at all. Of course they want the perp to suffer. Suffering leads to understanding if not redemption - a bedrock principle of the deeply engrained, largely subconcious, inextricably entangled Puritan philosophy which continues to pervade collective thought in the US, where the calls to chop it off, hang 'em high and fry 'em hot typically originiate in these discussions.

I just think most people look at the suffering as an end in itself, not a means by which the criminal will see the error of his ways. The way our justice system works amply demonstrates we don't have much interest in rehabilitation, otherwise I'd be more inclined to agree with you.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Re: High school cheerleader kicked off squad; Refused to cheer for rap

why are men allowed to suffer in silence while women are encouraged to come out and admit it?

It's because...

WARNING WARNING WARNING
EXTREMELY HIGH LEVELS OF SARCASM AHEAD

... guys aren't supposed to talk. We're supposed to be unemotional robots who have no feelings whatsoever (except maybe anger). If we show anything like grief or sadness, we're considered weak. Pathetic, really...

 

[Robert Maxwell]

Re: High school cheerleader kicked off squad; Refused to cheer for rap

why are men allowed to suffer in silence while women are encouraged to come out and admit it?

It's because...

WARNING WARNING WARNING
EXTREMELY HIGH LEVELS OF SARCASM AHEAD

... guys aren't supposed to talk. We're supposed to be unemotional robots who have no feelings whatsoever (except maybe anger). If we show anything like grief or sadness, we're considered weak. Pathetic, really...

Yeah, because that's exactly what I said. Now I know both you and Teelie lack the maturity to discuss this rationally, so thanks for the heads-up.

 

[doubleohfive]

Re: High school cheerleader kicked off squad; Refused to cheer for rap

why are men allowed to suffer in silence while women are encouraged to come out and admit it?

It's because...

WARNING WARNING WARNING
EXTREMELY HIGH LEVELS OF SARCASM AHEAD

... guys aren't supposed to talk. We're supposed to be unemotional robots who have no feelings whatsoever (except maybe anger). If we show anything like grief or sadness, we're considered weak. Pathetic, really...

This might have actually come across as remotely sarcastic if most of us weren't already aware that this is mostly how you already feel.

 

[Tora Ziyal]

Re: High school cheerleader kicked off squad; Refused to cheer for rap

Uh, actually, it's not incorrect to say that almost 90% (87.5% according to the stats I looked at, actually) of violent crimes are committed by men.... It's well known that rapes across the board are underreported, regardless of the genders of the perp or victim.

True.

There is apparently a significant amount of unreported female-on-male domestic violence (just as there is a significant amount of male-on-female...). And that needs to be taken very seriously.

But stranger-on-stranger sexual violence is another story. I have never heard of a woman breaking into the home of a stranger (male or female), threatening them w/ a weapon and raping them. Doesn't happen.

 

[Deckerd]

Re: High school cheerleader kicked off squad; Refused to cheer for rap

You think women being raped is under reported? Try looking at how many men are raped and unreported.

Overall? Women being raped and not reporting it outnumbers the opposite by a huge amount. You're using a really thin argument to further some agenda of your own. No idea what it is though.

 

[Teelie]

Re: High school cheerleader kicked off squad; Refused to cheer for rap

There are problems and then there are "problems." When almost 90% of all violent crimes are committed by men, it seems a little beside the point to then jump in and say, "but female-on-male violence is a problem, too!" It deserves attention but as it is a vastly unequal phenomenon it makes little sense to give it the same focus as violent crime perpetrated by males (against either sex.)

I also wonder if there isn't some kind of collective narcissism involved. People see a particular person (a woman) representing a larger social problem (male-on-female rape) and then have to jump in and call attention to a similar issue that is more self-serving in its scope. "But women also rape men! Why isn't anyone upset about that?"

I mean, can't we just agree that rape and violence are bad no matter who is doing it to whom, or why? I always feel like the people who take a thread about a specific male-on-female rape and turn it into a general discussion of female-on-male rape are trying to make it a contest. Which group suffers more indignities? Who has more right to be upset? For fuck's sake, violence isn't a competition.

We can't agree though. You make the case for why people are talking about women not always being the victim. You very much incorrectly say 90% of men cause violent crime, then dismiss however carefully, that it's not as common as it is for men to be the victim. You think women being raped is under reported? Try looking at how many men are raped and unreported. Or just outright abused or victimized by women, especially their mothers or wives. You call it narcisstic, I call it making it publically known this goes on.

Uh, actually, it's not incorrect to say that almost 90% (87.5% according to the stats I looked at, actually) of violent crimes are committed by men. I mean, look it up. Compare male prison population vs. female. Check the stats. It's all there. Men commit the vast, vast majority of violent crimes--and commit the most crimes, period.

I didn't say anything about anyone's rapes being underreported. It's well known that rapes across the board are underreported, regardless of the genders of the perp or victim.

I didn't say "don't discuss it," I said not to be disingenuous and act like female-on-male rape is as epidemic a problem as vice versa.

You're the one who is taking my post to mean "men shouldn't talk about being raped." I never said that. I said the degree to which men suffer sexual violence at the hands of women is nowhere in the same league as male-on-female rape. The problems are of an entirely different scale.

You complain about people misunderstanding your posts, but then you go and do the exact same thing to others.

I think that's giving people too much credit. I doubt most folks care about the perp "acknowledging" or "understanding" the gravity of his actions. They just want him to suffer for what he's done. And that's a perfectly understandable reaction but it is not a good basis for a justice system.

I don't think it's too much credit at all. Of course they want the perp to suffer. Suffering leads to understanding if not redemption - a bedrock principle of the deeply engrained, largely subconcious, inextricably entangled Puritan philosophy which continues to pervade collective thought in the US, where the calls to chop it off, hang 'em high and fry 'em hot typically originiate in these discussions.

I just think most people look at the suffering as an end in itself, not a means by which the criminal will see the error of his ways. The way our justice system works amply demonstrates we don't have much interest in rehabilitation, otherwise I'd be more inclined to agree with you.

Let's take a stab at this... you are taking violent crimes and making a claim. It's all reported crimes, not unreported ones as well, which are far higher. Men are naturally more aggressive so they are naturally a higher percentage. However it's inaccurate to claim that 90% of all violent crime is committed by men. Women committing violent crime is on the rise, at least in part due to it being reported. But you're making conclusions from flawed logic.

Also, you are saying that once again that womens rape or abuse against men is less prominent because it's less reported. You once more ignore the truth that these are vastly more underreported than ones against women.

I suggest you look up some statistics and information on that before you dare to accuse me of not knowing what I'm talking about. You did also say that men being raped was not appropriate to this discussion since it's only about women being raped and that since men aren't as commonly raped it didn't need to be brought up. Since when is rape against women more important than rape against men? That is what your post implied even if not stated.

I did nothing to mispresent your post beyond use your own comments against you, in the context you used " it makes little sense to give it the same focus as violent crime perpetrated by males" so you're saying that men are a minority and therefore it's less important.

Yeah, I'm doing to you what I'm sick of people doing to me, so I'm doing exactly what everyone else is doing. I guess you're just going to have to deal with it.

why are men allowed to suffer in silence while women are encouraged to come out and admit it?

It's because...

WARNING WARNING WARNING
EXTREMELY HIGH LEVELS OF SARCASM AHEAD

... guys aren't supposed to talk. We're supposed to be unemotional robots who have no feelings whatsoever (except maybe anger). If we show anything like grief or sadness, we're considered weak. Pathetic, really...

Yeah, because that's exactly what I said. Now I know both you and Teelie lack the maturity to discuss this rationally, so thanks for the heads-up.

I lack the maturity because I point out the flaws in your argument? You are misrepresenting a lot. You make use of statistics that use reported crimes where in the same post you admit that crimes against men go unreported.

So the only person lacking maturity here is you for discrediting anyone who points our your fallacies.

Since this is how you want to play, this is how it's going to go down. I didn't take a single thing you said out of context, misrepresent it or alter it. Unlike what you just did, taking a post apart bit by bit to make your own comments and rebuttal seem stronger by stripping away the original post.

You think women being raped is under reported? Try looking at how many men are raped and unreported.

Overall? Women being raped and not reporting it outnumbers the opposite by a huge amount. You're using a really thin argument to further some agenda of your own. No idea what it is though.

This is my argument: People make assumptions that men are responsible for every crime on the planet seemingly. If something happens, it's a man who did it. People take at face value accusations of rape without question that it might be false. People assume a woman cries rape, she really was raped. It's apparent that to you and the vast majority of people in this thread and the world just assume an accusation is true and that a woman is always a victim, never a perpetrator. Your taking my argument, calling it thin I bet without ever having taken so much as a glance at the statistics of crimes against men committed by women.

The thing I'm arguing is that men are not the only ones committing crimes, that women are sometimes even worse but the assumption that they're women and a victim or were somehow abused or mistreated into it is a common train of logic.

Also, before any of you so much as tries to distort this, I am not saying this teenage girl is responsible or in some way encouraged herself to be raped, but it is as good a stepping off point as any to show this is not unique to teenage girls or women in general.

Here's one last set of questions: Why don't you want it discussed? Why is it so offensive to you (any of you) that someone brought up that it happens to someone besides the teenage female victim? Is it because you think men deserve it? Is there some reason that you think it's less important? Or is there some other reason you think it shouldn't be brought up? Clearly you don't think it's relavant to this discussion or you wouldn't be so opposed to it.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

Re: High school cheerleader kicked off squad; Refused to cheer for rap

We can't agree though. You make the case for why people are talking about women not always being the victim. You very much incorrectly say 90% of men cause violent crime, then dismiss however carefully, that it's not as common as it is for men to be the victim. You think women being raped is under reported? Try looking at how many men are raped and unreported. Or just outright abused or victimized by women, especially their mothers or wives. You call it narcisstic, I call it making it publically known this goes on.

Uh, actually, it's not incorrect to say that almost 90% (87.5% according to the stats I looked at, actually) of violent crimes are committed by men. I mean, look it up. Compare male prison population vs. female. Check the stats. It's all there. Men commit the vast, vast majority of violent crimes--and commit the most crimes, period.

I didn't say anything about anyone's rapes being underreported. It's well known that rapes across the board are underreported, regardless of the genders of the perp or victim.



I didn't say "don't discuss it," I said not to be disingenuous and act like female-on-male rape is as epidemic a problem as vice versa.



You're the one who is taking my post to mean "men shouldn't talk about being raped." I never said that. I said the degree to which men suffer sexual violence at the hands of women is nowhere in the same league as male-on-female rape. The problems are of an entirely different scale.

You complain about people misunderstanding your posts, but then you go and do the exact same thing to others.



I just think most people look at the suffering as an end in itself, not a means by which the criminal will see the error of his ways. The way our justice system works amply demonstrates we don't have much interest in rehabilitation, otherwise I'd be more inclined to agree with you.

Let's take a stab at this... you took are taking violent crimes and making a claim. It's all reported crimes, not unreported ones as well, which are far higher. Men are naturally more aggressive so they are naturally a higher percentage. However it's inaccurate to claim that 90% of all violent crime is committed by men. Women committing violent crime is on the rise, at least in part due to it being reported. But you're making conclusions from flawed logic.

Actually, we don't know how much higher the unreported crimes are. We know they exist and it is understood to be a substantial problem but by its very nature it is not a measurable phenomenon. If we knew how many unreported crimes there were, they wouldn't be unreported.

So, all we have to go on are the statistics that are out there for reported crimes. And those statistics say the vast majority of violent crimes are committed by men. In order to achieve parity, women would have to actually be committing crimes against men 8-to-1 over the reported numbers. While I can accept that violent crimes are underreported in general I have a very hard time swallowing the discrepancy is that large.

Also, you are saying that once again that womens rape or abuse against men is less prominent because it's less reported. You once more ignore the truth that these are vastly more underreported than ones against women.

If both male-on-female and female-on-male rapes are underreported--and underreported by roughly the same proportion--then it's a difference that makes no difference. Again, women would have to be raping men at a rate that is many times the reported male-on-female numbers in order for it to even approach parity.

The offhand statistic is that "90% of rapes go unreported." I'm not sure what the basis for that number is, but it's one that is repeated a lot so let's just take it at face value.

To illustrate this in a manageable way, let's say for 875 women raped by men there are 100 men who are raped by women--these are the reported ratios, mind you.

Let's assume the underreporting is evenly split by proportion, meaning the real number of rapes is 1662 (F) vs. 190 (M). The ratio this remains the same, roughly 8.75:1. But let's be generous and say all the underreported rapes are by women against men and the reported numbers for female victims are accurate. That's 875:190, or a ratio of 4.6:1. That means women are still over 4 times as likely to be raped by a man than vice versa.

I hate having to break it down into numbers like that but statistics matter. You look to see which is the bigger problem and focus most of your energies there. It doesn't mean you ignore all other problems but there are only so many resources to go around and it doesn't make much sense to spend 50% of your resources attacking female-on-male rape when they represent only 10-20% of the overall problem (the problem being rape in general.)

I suggest you look up some statistics and information on that before you dare to accuse me of not knowing what I'm talking about. You did also say that men being raped was not appropriate to this discussion since it's only about women being raped and that since men aren't as commonly raped it didn't need to be brought up. Since when is rape against women more important than rape against men? That is what your post implied even if not stated.

Once again, I didn't say it shouldn't be brought up, but I do question the motives of those who feel a need to bring it up in a thread like this.

Rape against women is "more important" because it's a much bigger problem, just like car accidents are a bigger problem than people being struck by lightning because the former affects a hell of a lot more people.

I did nothing to mispresent your post beyond use your own comments against you, in the context you used " it makes little sense to give it the same focus as violent crime perpetrated by males" so you're saying that men are a minority and therefore it's less important.

Well, at least you are accurate there.

Yeah, I'm doing to you what I'm sick of people doing to me, so I'm doing exactly what everyone else is doing. I guess you're just going to have to deal with it.

I lack the maturity because I point out the flaws in your argument? You are misrepresenting a lot. You make use of statistics that use reported crimes where in the same post you admit that crimes against men go unreported.

My logic is impeccable. I just didn't think I had to spell it all out for you. But now I have, so enjoy.

So the only person lacking maturity here is you for discrediting anyone who points our your fallacies.

Since this is how you want to play, this is how it's going to go down. I didn't take a single thing you said out of context, misrepresent it or alter it. Unlike what you just did, taking a post apart bit by bit to make your own comments and rebuttal seem stronger by stripping away the original post.

I didn't strip anything out. Maybe the forum software did that, but I didn't. I just broke things into smaller quote blocks so I could address them individually.

 

[Tora Ziyal]

Re: High school cheerleader kicked off squad; Refused to cheer for rap

If anyone's interested, the Rape, Incest and Abuse National Network (RAINN) provides all sorts of statistics here: http://www.rainn.org/statistics.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Re: High school cheerleader kicked off squad; Refused to cheer for rap

There are problems and then there are "problems." When almost 90% of all violent crimes are committed by men, it seems a little beside the point to then jump in and say, "but female-on-male violence is a problem, too!" It deserves attention but as it is a vastly unequal phenomenon it makes little sense to give it the same focus as violent crime perpetrated by males (against either sex.)

I also wonder if there isn't some kind of collective narcissism involved. People see a particular person (a woman) representing a larger social problem (male-on-female rape) and then have to jump in and call attention to a similar issue that is more self-serving in its scope. "But women also rape men! Why isn't anyone upset about that?"

I mean, can't we just agree that rape and violence are bad no matter who is doing it to whom, or why? I always feel like the people who take a thread about a specific male-on-female rape and turn it into a general discussion of female-on-male rape are trying to make it a contest. Which group suffers more indignities? Who has more right to be upset? For fuck's sake, violence isn't a competition.

If you had read what I said, you would notice that I stated very clearly that NO ONE should have to feel that they could not be protected by the law and that resources weren't out there to help them. What we are looking at is the justice system and the culture failing to serve those it should protect. It failed the girl in this thread, and the point here is that this is a sign of a problem that is faced by other women, and also by men. This means that we have something fundamentally wrong that is of a scale much bigger than what is commonly recognized. The law has to be more about protecting ALL--regardless of whether the assailant is a star athlete, or a woman, or any other "protected" class. Fix it and ALL benefit.

(As to those statistics, I would question them due to underreporting.)

 

[Lookingglassman]

Re: High school cheerleader kicked off squad; Refused to cheer for rap

I thought Texas loved to execute criminals? How did this loser manage to slip by?

 

[sidious618]

Re: High school cheerleader kicked off squad; Refused to cheer for rap

But stranger-on-stranger sexual violence is another story. I have never heard of a woman breaking into the home of a stranger (male or female), threatening them w/ a weapon and raping them. Doesn't happen.

Really? That sexist attitude is startling.

Now, to address women on man violence, I find this article to be quite fascinating. This one, too. I tend to agree with Teelie that there is a very disturbing trend out there that almost seems to accept, if not condone, violence towards men by women. I'm not sure why that is but it's there.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Re: High school cheerleader kicked off squad; Refused to cheer for rap

Because our society defines who is the "victim" by demographics, not circumstances. The truth is that it can really happen to any of us. We all need equal protection under the law to be enforced.

 

[sidious618]

Re: High school cheerleader kicked off squad; Refused to cheer for rap

Because our society defines who is the "victim" by demographics, not circumstances. The truth is that it can really happen to any of us. We all need equal protection under the law to be enforced.

Absolutely. I'm sure I'll soon be attacked as some sort of women hate or some such nonsense. Women are absolutely in worse situations in many criminal situations. For example, the slave trade of women is massively large right now. In the millions, IIRC, and that is something that goes largely under the radar. The problem is, when someone points out that some crime against men goes under the radar then folks flip out.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Re: High school cheerleader kicked off squad; Refused to cheer for rap

The only way we'll come to grips by these problems is by getting the full scope of them. For instance, the same "person" trafficking in women might also be trafficking in young boys, or keeping male and female slaves. We have to see the full extent, have all of the facts, in order to get at the root of it all.

 

[sidious618]

Re: High school cheerleader kicked off squad; Refused to cheer for rap

The only way we'll come to grips by these problems is by getting the full scope of them. For instance, the same "person" trafficking in women might also be trafficking in young boys, or keeping male and female slaves. We have to see the full extent, have all of the facts, in order to get at the root of it all.

Violent and criminal acts are not done because of someone's sex. That'd be an absurd position to make even though many have. Whenever one sex does something more often than the other it is 99.9% because of social constructs and not biological. All the nonsense about how men are naturally more aggressive or about how women are more emotional is bullshit but that sure doesn't stop people from basing their opinions on all sorts of topics on just those nonsensical beliefs.

 

[Deckerd]

Re: High school cheerleader kicked off squad; Refused to cheer for rap

But stranger-on-stranger sexual violence is another story. I have never heard of a woman breaking into the home of a stranger (male or female), threatening them w/ a weapon and raping them. Doesn't happen.

Really? That sexist attitude is startling.

Now, to address women on man violence, I find this article to be quite fascinating. This one, too.

Neither of which refuted what Kreacher said even a little tiny bit. Mentioning an inequality of behaviour which is clearly divided along the sex of the perpetrator is not sexist. You're trying to cow people who don't agree with you by calling them sexist, in the same way as a religious fundie will accuse anyone who disagrees with them of hating god.

 

[Cheapjack]

Re: High school cheerleader kicked off squad; Refused to cheer for rap

You can get places with abuse cultures, where abusive relationships are the norm and so enforced that women start doing it to less abusive men, humiliating them in front of other people and so on, metering sex and conditioning it.

Not as bad as rape, but hell to live with. I've never heard of a reported case of a woman physically raping a man directly, where I am. More subtly, perhaps.

You can get female muggers.

 

[Deckerd]

Re: High school cheerleader kicked off squad; Refused to cheer for rap

Nobody's disputing that you get violent women. What I and every statistic on crime ever compiled dispute is that there is parity between the sexes when it comes to violent behaviour.