Did anyone else have a problem with Equinox, part two?

[DonIago]

Except that part of being a Startfleet Captain is putting aside your personal feelings when they compromise you. Hell, Trek '09 covered that one.

Janeway had every right to feel as she did. That doesn't mean she's in any position to abuse her power as a Starfleet Captain in order to act on her feelings.

You said it yourself - you're a doctor. If someone you hate comes in with a gunshot wound, do you refuse to treat them or make it painful for them because they're an asshat, or do you fulfill your oath, do everything you can to help them, and put your feelings aside for the time-being?

I'm not quite a doctor yet But that day will come . And yes I would never refuse treatment, unless the treatment itsself were unethical. Nor would I ever harm a patient if it can be avoided. But I don't think Janeway was on a power trip. She seized a chance to get information so she could apprehend Ransom. Did she do this in a calm and collected manner? No, she didn't. She acted impulsively and I suppose that was an act of weakness. But going as far as saying she was reveling the situation is simply bonkers.

I don't believe she was reveling in it, and if I at any point suggested that I thought she was, that was poor communication on my part.

 

[exodus]

I disagree. She and everyone in the ship was being threatened by the aliens, all thanks to Lessing's actions (along with his captain and crew). While it might not be self defense in the truest sense (that is fighting back against an assault), her life was very much in danger.

Such is the life of any military officer in the field.
The mistreatment of prisoners was covered in "Repentance".
Tom Paris wasn't mistreated either and he was in a penal colony for actually killing someone.
So no, I don't believe Starfleet would approve of her actions based on what we've seen and explained. Sorry.

Apologies accepted.

However, Starfleet must have forgiven her, or they would never have promoted her to admiral.

...or it's not specifically entered in her logs.


.....and I'm taking back my apology too.
J/k.

As far as military in the field, I was implying their life is on the line all the time. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

What was Starfleets position on the treatment of Picard in "Chain of Command" by the Cardassians? Miles O'Brian in "Tribunal"?

 

[AuntKate]

Not serious enough to merit what Janeway did.

And it certainly sounds like Jeffreies is painting it as a binary situation since they keep saying things like "What should she have done instead, sat on her hands and done nothing?"

I'm sorry, but the murder of two people is certainly reason enough for what she did to Lessing, especially when the lives of the rest of the crew hung in the balance.

Even if Starfleet Regulations prohibit it?

Just because Lessing is in a Starfleet uniform doesn't mean that he isn't a deadly enemy intent on leaving Voyager to the wolves. He is the equivalent to a Romulan, Kazon, Vidiian, etc., in this case. Would she hesitate to destroy a ship full of people if they were a direct threat to her ship's survival? Nope. She is acting within her powers as the captain of a ship that is in a battle for its existence.

 

[AuntKate]

Such is the life of any military officer in the field.
The mistreatment of prisoners was covered in "Repentance".
Tom Paris wasn't mistreated either and he was in a penal colony for actually killing someone.
So no, I don't believe Starfleet would approve of her actions based on what we've seen and explained. Sorry.

Apologies accepted.

However, Starfleet must have forgiven her, or they would never have promoted her to admiral.

...or it's not specifically entered in her logs.


.....and I'm taking back my apology too.
J/k.

As far as military in the field, I was implying their life is on the line all the time. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

Well, just because they know their lives may be forfeit doesn't mean that they are supposed to just give up when fighting back might step on someone else's rights. That would result in a pretty damned ineffective military, wouldn't it?

 

[exodus]

Apologies accepted.

However, Starfleet must have forgiven her, or they would never have promoted her to admiral.

...or it's not specifically entered in her logs.


.....and I'm taking back my apology too.
J/k.

As far as military in the field, I was implying their life is on the line all the time. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

Well, just because they know their lives may be forfeit doesn't mean that they are supposed to just give up when fighting back might step on someone else's rights. That would result in a pretty damned ineffective military, wouldn't it?

I wasn't even trying to imply that either.
As I said, I don't view Janeways actions as self defense.

 

[Jefferies]

I don't believe she was reveling in it, and if I at any point suggested that I thought she was, that was poor communication on my part.

I'm glad you said that. In the end, I believe the situation had deteriorated to a point where Janeway felt she had completely lost control but that it was still up to her and her alone to rectify the crimes being committed by Ransom and his crew. That pressure combined with the personal anger she was feeling caused her to act on her emotions. In the end, she didn't do anything amoral, and as I have pointed out the ethical situation with Lessing was complicated. Getting him to talk using unconventional means was not out of order, even if she should have been more calm and reflective when she made that decision.

 

[DonIago]

As far as I'm concerned, when your first officer directly tells you they object to what you're doing, that's a damn good reason to step back and take a good, hard look at your plans...not to blow right over them. Isn't it protocol in some (if not all) military situations that the first officer needs to confirm orders given by their CO?

Of course, the situation might be more interesting in several different ways if Chakotay hadn't intervened. Lessing might have died, Janeway might have been bluffing, Tuvok might have shown up and phasered Janeway and Chakotay (stun or disintegrate, your choice!).

 

[AuntKate]

As far as I'm concerned, when your first officer directly tells you they object to what you're doing, that's a damn good reason to step back and take a good, hard look at your plans...not to blow right over them. Isn't it protocol in some (if not all) military situations that the first officer needs to confirm orders given by their CO?

And that is what she did. She did not follow through with her plan to let the aliens attack Lessing and she did do something else--contact the people who worshiped the aliens to get their help.

There is not a protocol for the first officer's approval of the superior officer's decisions. The captain is in charge and makes the decisions. Period. If the first officer has issues with the decision, he/she brings it up in private where it is fully discussed. However, if the captain hears him/her out and decides not to modify the first decision--that's it. The military is a hierarchy, not a committee. Thank God.

Of course, the situation might be more interesting in several different ways if Chakotay hadn't intervened. Lessing might have died, Janeway might have been bluffing, Tuvok might have shown up and phasered Janeway and Chakotay (stun or disintegrate, your choice!).

And Lessing might also have surrendered and given them the command codes. You left that option out.

 

[kimc]

Such is the life of any military officer in the field.
The mistreatment of prisoners was covered in "Repentance".
Tom Paris wasn't mistreated either and he was in a penal colony for actually killing someone.
So no, I don't believe Starfleet would approve of her actions based on what we've seen and explained. Sorry.

I'm watching "Caretaker" now. Paris didn't "kill" - he made a pilot error then falsified records. Basically, he lied to cover up his error and that's why he was booted out of Starfleet. After that he "went out looking for a fight" and found the Maquis. He was captured by Starfleet on his very first mission. That's how he ended up in the penal colony.

 

[exodus]

Such is the life of any military officer in the field.
The mistreatment of prisoners was covered in "Repentance".
Tom Paris wasn't mistreated either and he was in a penal colony for actually killing someone.
So no, I don't believe Starfleet would approve of her actions based on what we've seen and explained. Sorry.

I'm watching "Caretaker" now. Paris didn't "kill" - he made a pilot error then falsified records. Basically, he lied to cover up his error and that's why he was booted out of Starfleet. After that he "went out looking for a fight" and found the Maquis. He was captured by Starfleet on his very first mission. That's how he ended up in the penal colony.

Ok.
Then we'll move on to Suder.

 

[AuntKate]

Such is the life of any military officer in the field.
The mistreatment of prisoners was covered in "Repentance".
Tom Paris wasn't mistreated either and he was in a penal colony for actually killing someone.
So no, I don't believe Starfleet would approve of her actions based on what we've seen and explained. Sorry.

I'm watching "Caretaker" now. Paris didn't "kill" - he made a pilot error then falsified records. Basically, he lied to cover up his error and that's why he was booted out of Starfleet. After that he "went out looking for a fight" and found the Maquis. He was captured by Starfleet on his very first mission. That's how he ended up in the penal colony.

Ok.
Then we'll move on to Suder.

Let's do. Suder was a murderer, but he was not an immediate threat to the entire ship and crew, nor did he have valuable information that was crucial to the ship's survival.

Let's also move on to Lessing and the other Equinox survivors after the crisis ended. They were put to work--albeit in menial jobs, but they were not even restricted to quarters.

 

[exodus]

I'm watching "Caretaker" now. Paris didn't "kill" - he made a pilot error then falsified records. Basically, he lied to cover up his error and that's why he was booted out of Starfleet. After that he "went out looking for a fight" and found the Maquis. He was captured by Starfleet on his very first mission. That's how he ended up in the penal colony.

Ok.
Then we'll move on to Suder.

Let's do. Suder was a murderer, but he was not an immediate threat to the entire ship and crew, nor did he have valuable information that was crucial to the ship's survival.

Let's also move on to Lessing and the other Equinox survivors after the crisis ended. They were put to work--albeit in menial jobs, but they were not even restricted to quarters.

The only thing I didn't understand about the Equinox episodes was that Janeway expected the crew of the Equinox to not obey Ransom when it came to killing the aliens but if the capt. & First Officer were both in on it, how could she expect the crew to mutiny?

 

[AuntKate]

Good question. I went to about.com's discussion on the duty of a military person to obey a superior's order. You can read the whole article here: http://usmilitary.about.com/cs/militarylaw1/a/obeyingorders.htm

Here is the part of that article that applies to your question:

In fact, under Article 90, during times of war, a military member who willfully disobeys a superior commissioned officer can be sentenced to death.

Seems like pretty good motivation to obey any order you're given, right? Nope. These articles require the obedience of LAWFUL orders. An order which is unlawful not only does not need to be obeyed, but obeying such an order can result in criminal prosecution of the one who obeys it. Military courts have long held that military members are accountable for their actions even while following orders -- if the order was illegal.

"I was only following orders," has been unsuccessfully used as a legal defense in hundreds of cases (probably most notably by Nazi leaders at the Nuremberg tribunals following World War II). The defense didn't work for them, nor has it worked in hundreds of cases since.

 

[exodus]

Good question. I went to about.com's discussion on the duty of a military person to obey a superior's order. You can read the whole article here: http://usmilitary.about.com/cs/militarylaw1/a/obeyingorders.htm

Here is the part of that article that applies to your question:

In fact, under Article 90, during times of war, a military member who willfully disobeys a superior commissioned officer can be sentenced to death.

Seems like pretty good motivation to obey any order you're given, right? Nope. These articles require the obedience of LAWFUL orders. An order which is unlawful not only does not need to be obeyed, but obeying such an order can result in criminal prosecution of the one who obeys it. Military courts have long held that military members are accountable for their actions even while following orders -- if the order was illegal.

"I was only following orders," has been unsuccessfully used as a legal defense in hundreds of cases (probably most notably by Nazi leaders at the Nuremberg tribunals following World War II). The defense didn't work for them, nor has it worked in hundreds of cases since.

Interesting.
Thanks for that.
So they did have a choice the whole time.

However, Ransom said half his crew was killed by another alien race their first week in the DQ. So I wonder who left in the crew had the authority to relieve the Capt and First of duty?

 

[DonIago]

Under those circumstances mutiny might have been the most moral option, but given the hell they went through it's easy enough to understand why their morality would have collapsed the way it did. Not excusable by any means, but understandable.

I'm not sure we ever had to see Voyager operating under such a long-term siege mentality other than in YoH.

 

[Guy Gardener]

IN MIght, kathy ciouldn't cope with the tedium and preferred to rock back and forth to the drumming in her head, rather than lead her crewt.... A different sort of emotrional breakdown and morale fracture butone nether the less.

 

[Deckerd]

IN MIght, kathy ciouldn't cope with the tedium and preferred to rock back and forth to the drumming in her head, rather than lead her crewt.... A different sort of emotrional breakdown and morale fracture butone nether the less.

Nothing like a nice big glass of wine at the end of the day eh?

 

[Deks]

The only thing I didn't understand about the Equinox episodes was that Janeway expected the crew of the Equinox to not obey Ransom when it came to killing the aliens but if the capt. & First Officer were both in on it, how could she expect the crew to mutiny?

Exactly because they encountered another SF ship and crew that fell under the same governing body.
They were no longer alone and had to answer to someone for what they did.
Furthermore, Janeway stuck by regulation for the most part and command fell within her because Voyager was tactically superior.

In any event, what Janeway did to Noah wasn't actually torture.
Unconventional methods are something that SF officers are allowed to do so long as physical/mental torture is not involved.
Could what was done to Noah be perceived as mental torture?
I doubt it.
Noah was someone who helped throwing Voyager and it's crew to be destroyed to the very aliens he helped murder.
Janeway's scare tactic was perfectly justified (although I will admit she was impulsive).
Then again, the way she behaved toward Noah did not invoke emotional detachment.
In fact, it was cold and professional ... something that wasn't the first time Janeway did (YoH not included, I'm talking about other episodes).

I think what Janeway has as an issue might have been that if driven to such a level, she would simply ignore those who follow her orders and expect them to obey the captain.
A bit of a mistake, however, legitimate in her case though because she WAS the captain.

The only momentary 'collapse' she might have had was when she took Voyager into an atmosphere after the Equinox and the ship took heavy damage as a result.
That's the only example where she completely disregarded the well-being of the entire crew.
But she also turned away to go after the Ankari and in the end wasn't bloodthirsty for Ransom as people might have thought because she DID end up trusting him when he said he'd be prepared to hand over the Equinox.

Forcefully tractoring the Ankari ship to get them to talk?
Justifiable since they were in no mood to talk and she needed to get their attention (so she used the least painful method and one that would likely do the trick under the circumstances).

 

[sonak]

The only thing I didn't understand about the Equinox episodes was that Janeway expected the crew of the Equinox to not obey Ransom when it came to killing the aliens but if the capt. & First Officer were both in on it, how could she expect the crew to mutiny?

Exactly because they encountered another SF ship and crew that fell under the same governing body.
They were no longer alone and had to answer to someone for what they did.
Furthermore, Janeway stuck by regulation for the most part and command fell within her because Voyager was tactically superior.

In any event, what Janeway did to Noah wasn't actually torture.
Unconventional methods are something that SF officers are allowed to do so long as physical/mental torture is not involved.
Could what was done to Noah be perceived as mental torture?
I doubt it.
Noah was someone who helped throwing Voyager and it's crew to be destroyed to the very aliens he helped murder.
Janeway's scare tactic was perfectly justified (although I will admit she was impulsive).
Then again, the way she behaved toward Noah did not invoke emotional detachment.
In fact, it was cold and professional ... something that wasn't the first time Janeway did (YoH not included, I'm talking about other episodes).

I think what Janeway has as an issue might have been that if driven to such a level, she would simply ignore those who follow her orders and expect them to obey the captain.
A bit of a mistake, however, legitimate in her case though because she WAS the captain.

The only momentary 'collapse' she might have had was when she took Voyager into an atmosphere after the Equinox and the ship took heavy damage as a result.
That's the only example where she completely disregarded the well-being of the entire crew.
But she also turned away to go after the Ankari and in the end wasn't bloodthirsty for Ransom as people might have thought because she DID end up trusting him when he said he'd be prepared to hand over the Equinox.

Forcefully tractoring the Ankari ship to get them to talk?
Justifiable since they were in no mood to talk and she needed to get their attention (so she used the least painful method and one that would likely do the trick under the circumstances).

It's disturbing how many here are willing to (1) defend Janeway's actions here, and (2) distort what was plainly seen on screen in order to justify their positions.


Firstly, it was not a "scare tactic," she was going to leave him in there until Chakotay intervened, the episode plainly shows this. Interpreting this as "bluffing" is just fan revisionism after the fact to get her off the hook. There's no on-screen basis for believing she was bluffing, but lots of on-screen reason for believing she was NOT, since Chakotay himself plainly DIDN'T.

Secondly, even the episode doesn't portray Janeway in a positive light, as we are not meant to see her that way. She bullies her subordinates, and threatens to kill her opponents, etc. That's why they have her basically apologize to Chakotay at the end. The episode itself is showing she was wrong, but yet there are some who insist that she did nothing wrong and have nothing to apologize for.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Welcome to the Voyager Forum.

Deks, you do remember that half of Noah's crewmates had just murdered by these beasties over the last few weeks?

Remember how they used to claim that Waterboarding wasn't torture because it was just simulated drowning?

Maybe she should have just rammed a screwdriver into his leg, but pain is hardly as convincing as some one killing you slowly.

What I really don't get is why Noah broke AFTER Chakotay rescued him, unless he didn't think that the Indian would protect him and the crazy white chick was just going to try to kill him again but better.

Was he grateful for being saved more so than being threatened into revealing information? Was it Chakotays generosity of spirit or Kathy's reptile brain making decisions which won out the day?

Not wine Deckerd. Fat fingers.