Did anyone else have a problem with Equinox, part two?

[AuntKate]

It's disturbing how many here are willing to (1) defend Janeway's actions here, and (2) distort what was plainly seen on screen in order to justify their positions.


Firstly, it was not a "scare tactic," she was going to leave him in there until Chakotay intervened, the episode plainly shows this. Interpreting this as "bluffing" is just fan revisionism after the fact to get her off the hook. There's no on-screen basis for believing she was bluffing, but lots of on-screen reason for believing she was NOT, since Chakotay himself plainly DIDN'T.

Secondly, even the episode doesn't portray Janeway in a positive light, as we are not meant to see her that way. She bullies her subordinates, and threatens to kill her opponents, etc. That's why they have her basically apologize to Chakotay at the end. The episode itself is showing she was wrong, but yet there are some who insist that she did nothing wrong and have nothing to apologize for.

Hmmm. I'm not sure that I am defending Janeway as much as wanting to put her actions into the proper context and view what happens on the screen dispassionately. When Chakotay stopped the opening of the rift, Janeway said, "He'll break." Now, to me, that means that she is bluffing, that her goal was not to torture or kill Lessing, but to force him to talk. Again, that is an interpretation, but that is how I saw and interpreted the exchange. I don't think it is "fan revisionism" nor does it ignore what really happened on the screen.

Secondly, what we see of Janeway should not be considered in a positive light. In fact, many of us feel that the episode draws direct parallels between Ransom's actions and Janeway's, hardly a positive comparison. She takes risks with the ship and crew, she puts a person in danger of his life, and she ignores the guidance of her subordinates, very much as Ransom does. The difference is that her ultimate goal was "right" and Ransom's was "wrong." But, as is implied at the close of the episode, the ends don't justify the means. To me, that is the ultimate lesson of the episode.

I do think that her actions were within her authority and taken for the right reasons, whether we like them or not. I also agree that she basically apologizes to Chakotay at the end, at least as much as any superior officer ever apologizes to a subordinate. What I like about Janeway as a captain is that she IS flawed and knows it. She escapes complete censure by following the advice of her crew and by admitting she isn't perfect.

 

[exodus]

The only thing I didn't understand about the Equinox episodes was that Janeway expected the crew of the Equinox to not obey Ransom when it came to killing the aliens but if the capt. & First Officer were both in on it, how could she expect the crew to mutiny?

Exactly because they encountered another SF ship and crew that fell under the same governing body.
They were no longer alone and had to answer to someone for what they did.
Furthermore, Janeway stuck by regulation for the most part and command fell within her because Voyager was tactically superior.

In any event, what Janeway did to Noah wasn't actually torture.
Unconventional methods are something that SF officers are allowed to do so long as physical/mental torture is not involved.
Could what was done to Noah be perceived as mental torture?
I doubt it.
Noah was someone who helped throwing Voyager and it's crew to be destroyed to the very aliens he helped murder.
Janeway's scare tactic was perfectly justified (although I will admit she was impulsive).
Then again, the way she behaved toward Noah did not invoke emotional detachment.
In fact, it was cold and professional ... something that wasn't the first time Janeway did (YoH not included, I'm talking about other episodes).

I think what Janeway has as an issue might have been that if driven to such a level, she would simply ignore those who follow her orders and expect them to obey the captain.
A bit of a mistake, however, legitimate in her case though because she WAS the captain.

The only momentary 'collapse' she might have had was when she took Voyager into an atmosphere after the Equinox and the ship took heavy damage as a result.
That's the only example where she completely disregarded the well-being of the entire crew.
But she also turned away to go after the Ankari and in the end wasn't bloodthirsty for Ransom as people might have thought because she DID end up trusting him when he said he'd be prepared to hand over the Equinox.

Forcefully tractoring the Ankari ship to get them to talk?
Justifiable since they were in no mood to talk and she needed to get their attention (so she used the least painful method and one that would likely do the trick under the circumstances).

It's disturbing how many here are willing to (1) defend Janeway's actions here, and (2) distort what was plainly seen on screen in order to justify their positions.


Firstly, it was not a "scare tactic," she was going to leave him in there until Chakotay intervened, the episode plainly shows this. Interpreting this as "bluffing" is just fan revisionism after the fact to get her off the hook. There's no on-screen basis for believing she was bluffing, but lots of on-screen reason for believing she was NOT, since Chakotay himself plainly DIDN'T.

Secondly, even the episode doesn't portray Janeway in a positive light, as we are not meant to see her that way. She bullies her subordinates, and threatens to kill her opponents, etc. That's why they have her basically apologize to Chakotay at the end. The episode itself is showing she was wrong, but yet there are some who insist that she did nothing wrong and have nothing to apologize for.

"Different strokes for different folks and so on and so on and shoobee-doobie-doobie-doobie......"

 

[DonIago]

Quick question - if Janeway -was- bluffing, why wouldn't she tell Chakotay that? Heck, if she really was bluffing he kind of ruined her act by freeing Lessing.

 

[Guy Gardener]

If Chuckles was her soul mate, if he really expected to get into her pants then he should know her and if he didn't know her, if he thought she was actually capable of killing Lessing when really she trusted him enough to stop her before every went pearshaped, then he didn't deserve to know her or be consolidated that he was just a cog in her bigwheel reacting exactly how she wanted him to.

Personally I don't think she was bluffing and didn't care if Noah Lived or died, but that's just me.

 

[AuntKate]

Quick question - if Janeway -was- bluffing, why wouldn't she tell Chakotay that? Heck, if she really was bluffing he kind of ruined her act by freeing Lessing.

I think she was just too mad at the universe. She doesn't have to explain her decisions to Chakotay or anyone else and wasn't about to. Was she out of control? Probably. Was Chakotay right to stop her? Absolutely.

However, stopping her from doing this is not why he was relieved and sent to his quarters. It was later, in the conference room, when Chakotay put conditions on his willingness to follow orders:

JANEWAY: We've had our disagreements Chakotay, but you've never openly opposed me.
CHAKOTAY: You almost killed that man today.
JANEWAY: It was a calculated risk and I took it.
CHAKOTAY: It was a bad call.
JANEWAY: I'll note your objection in my log.
CHAKOTAY: I don't give a damn about your log! This isn't about rules and regulations. It's about right and wrong, and I'm warning you, I won't let you cross that line again.
JANEWAY: Then you leave me no choice. You are hereby relieved of duty until further notice.
CHAKOTAY: What's happened to you, Kathryn?
JANEWAY: I was about to ask you the same question.

The operative terms here are "openly" opposing her and putting conditions on his loyalty. She can't be worrying about having to stop at every moment to explain her orders to him (or Tuvok, either, as we later discover). So, right or wrong, she sends him to his room to think.

It is interesting that Janeway reacts with such fury and wonders why Chakotay isn't just as furious about Voyager's betrayal and Equinox's genocide of the aliens. I think it is because she is a true Starfleet believer (or was) and that Chakotay, as a Maquis, is not quite as "starry-eyed" about the integrity of a Starfleet captain and crew as she is. She acts like an avenging angel, don't you think?

I love the episode because it is so complex and interesting to think about.

 

[exodus]

Quick question - if Janeway -was- bluffing, why wouldn't she tell Chakotay that? Heck, if she really was bluffing he kind of ruined her act by freeing Lessing.

Exactly!

 

[Guy Gardener]

But if he didn't free Lessing, the big sexy black man would have been eaten dead.

Without Chakotay crumbling because she knows him so well, her bluff would have backfired.

(Uness she never turned the forcefield off at all?)

 

[HoneyBLilly]

(Uness she never turned the forcefield off at all?)

She did. They do a switch to the room and there was an aperture appearing. Plus Chakotay closed one when he dragged him out.

 

[Guy Gardener]

But it all could have been faked with Holograms and mirrors is what some crazy people shamelessly trying to defend Janeway might say.

 

[HoneyBLilly]

But it all could have been faked with Holograms and mirrors is what some crazy people shamelessly trying to defend Janeway might say.

Yes, Janeway had the time to rig the cargo bay with mirrors and holo-emitters. Sure . . . =) But I can't blame them. If they loved Janeway it would be easier to believe. I did, I do, but I was bitter up until three hours ago.

 

[Cepstrum]

There are a lot of nuanced arguments going on here. I'm probably wrong, but I think it was simpler:

• Janeway, in her first command, was cut-off from SF

• The elation at finding another SF vessel to team up with was quickly tempered by not only Ransom and Co.'s murder, but also their betrayal of Voyager and leaving it to die

• Chakotay and Tuvok, IMO, should have temporarily relieved her from duty. I fault Tuvok, for once he learned she put Chakotay in the brig, he should have known something was off. The two of them together could have temporarily relieved Janeway.

• Janeway was highly protective of her crew and very much valued trust (see Prime Factors). Ransom kidnapped Seven *and* left Voyager to almost assured destruction. He also kidnapped the EMH and had his own provide him with Voyager's shield info, though I don't know if Janeway yet knew it.

• Picard was never in her position. Sisko committed attempt mass murder of Maquis planets out of a personal vendetta. It's not unprecedented for SF captains to go overboard. Plus, again, Janeway was all alone.

I am not defending Janeway's actions, but I can appreciate her situation. What a terrible disappointment to find your only SF comrades are not only murdering for fuel but are willing to kill you, too.

All in all, it was a highly unusual situation — perhaps unique; it's tough to know what other SF captains would have done. Picard for all his high morals *probably* would not have done it, but then again, he had more experience, the luxury of commanding the flagship, and consulting and receiving orders from admirals. Janeway had none of this.

And in Night, we already know she was experiencing guilt. Her actions in Equinox could have been a manifestation of that. Anger, guilt, loneliness, and sadness are closely intertwined.

I do wish Chakotay and Tuvok had teamed up and intervened: it would have been a cool bonding/bury-the-hatchet moment, for they were initially often at odds and had latent enmity between them. I would have liked a clear reconciliation moment between those two, though IIRC Tuvok at one point admitted Chakotay made the better XO, and he commiserated with him when Chatokay was depressed because two of his closest crew (Tuvok and Seska) were in fact incinerators. Edit: the iPod changed it. I meant "infiltrators."


Just my measly $0.02.

 

[Deckerd]

Incinerators?

I was with you right up until then.

 

[HoneyBLilly]

There are a lot of nuanced arguments going on here. I'm probably wrong, but I think it was simpler:

• Janeway, in her first command, was cut-off from SF

• The elation at finding another SF vessel to team up with was quickly tempered by not only Ransom and Co.'s murder, but also their betrayal of Voyager and leaving it to die

• Chakotay and Tuvok, IMO, should have temporarily relieved her from duty. I fault Tuvok, for once he learned she put Chakotay in the brig, he should have known something was off. The two of them together could have temporarily relieved Janeway.

• Janeway was highly protective of her crew and very much valued trust (see Prime Factors). Ransom kidnapped Seven *and* left Voyager to almost assured destruction. He also kidnapped the EMH and had his own provide him with Voyager's shield info, though I don't know if Janeway yet knew it.

• Picard was never in her position. Sisko committed attempt mass murder of Maquis planets out of a personal vendetta. It's not unprecedented for SF captains to go overboard. Plus, again, Janeway was all alone.

I am not defending Janeway's actions, but I can appreciate her situation. What a terrible disappointment to find your only SF comrades are not only murdering for fuel but are willing to kill you, too.

All in all, it was a highly unusual situation — perhaps unique; it's tough to know what other SF captains would have done. Picard for all his high morals *probably* would not have done it, but then again, he had more experience, the luxury of commanding the flagship, and consulting and receiving orders from admirals. Janeway had none of this.

And in Night, we already know she was experiencing guilt. Her actions in Equinox could have been a manifestation of that. Anger, guilt, loneliness, and sadness are closely intertwined.

I do wish Chakotay and Tuvok had teamed up and intervened: it would have been a cool bonding/bury-the-hatchet moment, for they were initially often at odds and had latent enmity between them. I would have liked a clear reconciliation moment between those two, though IIRC Tuvok at one point admitted Chakotay made the better XO, and he commiserated with him when Chatokay was depressed because two of his closest crew (Tuvok and Seska) were in fact incinerators.


Just my measly $0.02.

Incinerators?

It's a very intuitive two cents. And I agree, those are all very good excuses.

And she just confined Chakotay to quarters.

 

[DonIago]

I don't think that word means what Cepstrum thinks it means.

I do wish people would stop calling what Sisko did attempted murder and such, though. From all indications he gave the Maquis what should be sufficient time to evacuate the planet...hell, he broadcast his intentions in advance.

Besides, if you really want to rake Sisko over the coals, ITPM is such a better choice.

 

[Cepstrum]

Incinerators?

I was with you right up until then.

Ooops. It's the iPod's spell correcting.

I meant "infiltrators".


And I agree Sisko's actions were ambiguous. I didn't mean to start an argument about him. I was just trying to say sometimes SF captains can be provoked into personal vendettas. I wouldn't necessarily call Sisko a murderer, just as Janeway ultimately didn't murder anyone. I really don't want to debate the whole Maquis/Sisko/Eddington thing.

 

[HoneyBLilly]

I do wish people would stop calling what Sisko did attempted murder and such, though. From all indications he gave the Maquis what should be sufficient time to evacuate the planet...hell, he broadcast his intentions in advance.

Besides, if you really want to rake Sisko over the coals, ITPM is such a better choice.

I would have an opinion on it if I ever got into DS9. But I didn't. So I have no clue what happened. I know all about the Maquis from what I get from Voyager and TNG's Pre-Emptive Strike.

(I know I spelled Pre-Emptive wrong, but it's to early for me to care.)

 

[Cepstrum]

I don't think that word means what Cepstrum thinks it means.

I do wish people would stop calling what Sisko did attempted murder and such, though. From all indications he gave the Maquis what should be sufficient time to evacuate the planet...hell, he broadcast his intentions in advance.

Besides, if you really want to rake Sisko over the coals, ITPM is such a better choice.

You're right. I don't want to get into debating Sisko's actions. I was trying, in haste, to think of a comparable situation. To me the similarities are that they both became preoccupied with a personal grudge.

I don't know myself whether Sisko was right or wrong. Sorry. I didn't mean to inflame bad feelings.

 

[Cepstrum]

I don't think that word means what Cepstrum thinks it means.

Hehehe. The iPod changed "infiltrators" to "incinerators." My mistake. Another bonehead move by me.

I appreciate your humor, DonIago.

 

[HoneyBLilly]

I don't think that word means what Cepstrum thinks it means.

Hehehe. The iPod changed "infiltrators" to "incinerators." My mistake. Another bonehead move by me.

I appreciate your humor, DonIago.

I was guessing it was supposed to be incarcerate. And iPod spell check is crazy.

 

[Deckerd]

I don't think that word means what Cepstrum thinks it means.

I appreciate your humor, DonIago.

You were supposed to say "Inconceivable!"

It's a time-honoured TrekBBS tradition. We like the old ways.