Did anyone else have a problem with Equinox, part two?

[exodus]

What about the fact that Lessing's actions, along with those of the rest of the Equinox crew, could be considered attempted murder of everyone on Voyager? The courts are very lenient in cases of self-defense, and the police are given much leeway in what they can and can't do or say to people who are suspects of serious crimes (they can lie to them, tell them have evidence the don't have, etc.). This was a matter of life or death to Voyager and its crew, don't forget. What we might not accept in normal situations is often forgiven when we are under duress, and I think Starfleet would see this as one of those times.

Starfleet doesn't approve of torture or the death penalty.
What Janeway did wasn't self defense because at the time she wasn't being threatened. She was doing to to trying to extract information. Wasn't the Geneva Convention put in place to prevent such acts? Wasn't that why waterboarding and Abu Grave was such a controversy a few years ago?

 

[DonIago]

Sorry if I sound like a softie or something, but the whole "Lessing deserved what he got" attitude sounds rather reminiscent of the "He's a thief so cut off his hands" philosophy of the Middle Ages to me. My understanding was that Star Trek was supposed to be portraying a future where the "good guys", at least, didn't resort to things like threatening to kill a criminal if he refuses to talk.

Claiming that Janeway didn't actually hurt him ignores the fact that we have no idea whether or not she would have gone through with it. Even if in the episode she herself had claimed she wouldn't have, I'm not sure I'd believe her...or whether she'd even believe herself.

But of course, she buys it all back and is back to being Captain Wonderful by the end of the episode. Or at least, we're returned to the status quo and the whole thing is never mentioned again.

 

[Jefferies]

I feel this thread is heavily biased against Janeway and I think she is being treated unfairly. Don't get me wrong I don't agree with everything she has ever done. The murder of Tuvix and her decisions in Endgame being at the top of the list.

I love Janeway. It was really just the episode that irked me for some reason. Part of it was the whole Janeway thing. But the other part was how they(meaning Braga and how he wrote Janeway doing this) treated Chakotay. Granted, I really only like him whe he's fawning over Janeway but the fact that Janeway became so self-righteous that she dismissed one of her best friends, it just rubbed me the wrong way.

So in no way is this supposed to be just tagging on Janeway, because she's still my favorite captain. But the episode as a whole was what my intention was, yes, I did mainly use Janeway in my description but that was because I believe she should have been relieved of duty. But I didn't mean for this to just be tagging on Janeway. The episode, not Janeway herself.

It's funny, I felt Chacotay was the one at fault in this episode and that he was making a difficult situation worse for the Captain. If anything he was the self-righteous one because he was not prepared to deal with the ethical dilamma and weigh the consequences that could ensue by playing it by the book. Playing it safe is a really nice and cushy thing to do, lets you wash your hands in inocents. After all you can always blame the outcome on the circumstances. But maybe as a result of such a lack of courage lives are lost that might have been savable.

 

[Jefferies]

Sorry if I sound like a softie or something, but the whole "Lessing deserved what he got" attitude sounds rather reminiscent of the "He's a thief so cut off his hands" philosophy of the Middle Ages to me. My understanding was that Star Trek was supposed to be portraying a future where the "good guys", at least, didn't resort to things like throwing a criminal in a room and threatening to kill him if he didn't talk.

Claiming that Janeway didn't actually hurt him ignores the fact that we have no idea whether or not she would have gone through with it. Even if in the episode she herself had claimed she wouldn't have, I'm not sure I'd believe her...or whether she'd even believe herself.

But of course, she buys it all back and is back to being Captain Wonderful by the end of the episode. Or at least, we're returned to the status quo and the whole thing is never mentioned again.

First off, you can't condemn someone for something they might have done. She didn't go through with it in the end and that's what counts. And at the risk of repeating myself, I'm not saying that an attempt to torture someone into submission isn't morally reproachable. It is. But sitting by, washing ones hands in inocents while inocents are being murdered under your watch sounds a lot worse to me. A wise man once said "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." (or women in this case). Janeway was the one in charge, she couldn't just stand by, she had a duty to act and protect the nucelogenic life-forms from the rogue Starfleet officers. All that has nothing to do with petty notions like Lessing had it comming. Even if Janeway aluded to this the stakes went way beyond that.

 

[eepruls]

Some of you are saying that Janeway was forced to do whatever possible to stop Ransom and so that made it okay for her to go nuts. Wrong. Janeway crossed the line because Ransom betrayed her not because he was killing life forms. The whole crew was behind her to stop Ransom for breaking the prime directive. Tuvok and Chakotay both wanted to stop him. That wasn't the issue. She made it personal and forgot her own ethics.

I would've liked Janeway to have emerged as the honourable captain, showing us that not all captains kill life forms, forget their duty, or go crazy when things get personal.

 

[AuntKate]

What about the fact that Lessing's actions, along with those of the rest of the Equinox crew, could be considered attempted murder of everyone on Voyager? The courts are very lenient in cases of self-defense, and the police are given much leeway in what they can and can't do or say to people who are suspects of serious crimes (they can lie to them, tell them have evidence the don't have, etc.). This was a matter of life or death to Voyager and its crew, don't forget. What we might not accept in normal situations is often forgiven when we are under duress, and I think Starfleet would see this as one of those times.

Starfleet doesn't approve of torture or the death penalty.
What Janeway did wasn't self defense because at the time she wasn't being threatened. She was doing to to trying to extract information. Wasn't the Geneva Convention put in place to prevent such acts? Wasn't that why waterboarding and Abu Grave was such a controversy a few years ago?

I disagree. She and everyone in the ship was being threatened by the aliens, all thanks to Lessing's actions (along with his captain and crew). While it might not be self defense in the truest sense (that is fighting back against an assault), her life was very much in danger.

 

[HoneyBLilly]

I feel this thread is heavily biased against Janeway and I think she is being treated unfairly. Don't get me wrong I don't agree with everything she has ever done. The murder of Tuvix and her decisions in Endgame being at the top of the list.

I love Janeway. It was really just the episode that irked me for some reason. Part of it was the whole Janeway thing. But the other part was how they(meaning Braga and how he wrote Janeway doing this) treated Chakotay. Granted, I really only like him whe he's fawning over Janeway but the fact that Janeway became so self-righteous that she dismissed one of her best friends, it just rubbed me the wrong way.

So in no way is this supposed to be just tagging on Janeway, because she's still my favorite captain. But the episode as a whole was what my intention was, yes, I did mainly use Janeway in my description but that was because I believe she should have been relieved of duty. But I didn't mean for this to just be tagging on Janeway. The episode, not Janeway herself.

It's funny, I felt Chacotay was the one at fault in this episode and that he was making a difficult situation worse for the Captain. If anything he was the self-righteous one because he was not prepared to deal with the ethical dilamma and weigh the consequences that could ensue by playing it by the book. Playing it safe is a really nice and cushy thing to do, lets you wash your hands in inocents. After all you can always blame the outcome on the circumstances. But maybe as a result of such a lack of courage lives are lost that might have been savable.

True . . . But I think he was supposed to be worried about her. She's his best friend and she just kind of lost it. So I felt that when he yells at her he was trying a "WAKE UP" tactic and to get he to realize that she was crossing a line by using her scare tactic.

 

[DonIago]

"First off, you can't condemn someone for something they might have done."

Actually, in Relativity that's exactly what they do. And I'm not condemning Janeway for what she might have done, I'm condemning her for throwing Lessing in a room and showing every indication of being willing to let the aliens kill him, and for stepping all over anyone who tried to get in her way.

"She didn't go through with it in the end and that's what counts."
So if I'm about to stab you, and I reconsider at the last second, we're good right? Because I didn't go through with it in the end.

I'm saying that it doesn't matter what Lessing was doing. It's immaterial. As the Borg would say, it's irrelevant. Murder, Waterboarding, Torture are all acts that humans shouldn't engage in. And neither is what Janeway did to Lessing.

You of course realize that there were certainly other options than either doing what Janeway did or nothing. To present it as a binary argument seems, frankly, disingenuous.

 

[kimc]

"First off, you can't condemn someone for something they might have done."

Actually, in Relativity that's exactly what they do.

And that's one reason why I don't care for that episode.

 

[AuntKate]

Sorry if I sound like a softie or something, but the whole "Lessing deserved what he got" attitude sounds rather reminiscent of the "He's a thief so cut off his hands" philosophy of the Middle Ages to me. My understanding was that Star Trek was supposed to be portraying a future where the "good guys", at least, didn't resort to things like threatening to kill a criminal if he refuses to talk.

Claiming that Janeway didn't actually hurt him ignores the fact that we have no idea whether or not she would have gone through with it. Even if in the episode she herself had claimed she wouldn't have, I'm not sure I'd believe her...or whether she'd even believe herself.

But of course, she buys it all back and is back to being Captain Wonderful by the end of the episode. Or at least, we're returned to the status quo and the whole thing is never mentioned again.

She seems to be very repentant at the end, at least when talking to Chakotay on the bridge. And, it's never mentioned again because of the reset button that Voyager was known for.

 

[Jefferies]

Some of you are saying that Janeway was forced to do whatever possible to stop Ransom and so that made it okay for her to go nuts. Wrong. Janeway crossed the line because Ransom betrayed her not because he was killing life forms. The whole crew was behind her to stop Ransom for breaking the prime directive. Tuvok and Chakotay both wanted to stop him. That wasn't the issue. She made it personal and forgot her own ethics.

I would've liked Janeway to have emerged as the honourable captain, showing us that not all captains kill life forms, forget their duty, or go crazy when things get personal.

I think that this is an example of judging Janeway unfairly in this situation. To ask her to seperate her emotions from the injustice that had been committed here just seems unreasonable. It wasn't really about personal betrayal but the unspeakableness of a Starfleet Captain betraying the core values of the Federation. I feel it's not hard to see why she took that personal. I personnally work in Medicine. This is a profession that has an ethical code (just like Starfleet). When other doctors violate that code it reflects badly on the whole profession and you can't help but feel angry about such individuals bringing your vocation into disrepute. When it happens like it did for Janeway, directly under your nose it makes sense you would feel even more strongly about it.

 

[DonIago]

Except that part of being a Startfleet Captain is putting aside your personal feelings when they compromise you. Hell, Trek '09 covered that one.

Janeway had every right to feel as she did. That doesn't mean she's in any position to abuse her power as a Starfleet Captain in order to act on her feelings.

You said it yourself - you're a doctor. If someone you hate comes in with a gunshot wound, do you refuse to treat them or make it painful for them because they're an asshat, or do you fulfill your oath, do everything you can to help them, and put your feelings aside for the time-being?

 

[AuntKate]

"First off, you can't condemn someone for something they might have done."

Actually, in Relativity that's exactly what they do. And I'm not condemning Janeway for what she might have done, I'm condemning her for throwing Lessing in a room and showing every indication of being willing to let the aliens kill him, and for stepping all over anyone who tried to get in her way.

"She didn't go through with it in the end and that's what counts."
So if I'm about to stab you, and I reconsider at the last second, we're good right? Because I didn't go through with it in the end.

I'm saying that it doesn't matter what Lessing was doing. It's immaterial. As the Borg would say, it's irrelevant. Murder, Waterboarding, Torture are all acts that humans shouldn't engage in. And neither is what Janeway did to Lessing.

You of course realize that there were certainly other options than either doing what Janeway did or nothing. To present it as a binary argument seems, frankly, disingenuous.

No one has suggested that Janeway should either do what she did or do nothing. There might very well have been other options, but she was pressed for time in the extreme. The threat of the aliens was an immediate (and poetically appropriate) one, considering the circumstances. We use what's handy.

And it does matter what Lessing was doing. There are degrees of criminal activity, and depriving Voyager of their protection from certain annihilation is pretty much equivalent to murder. It's not like he stole the captain's ice cream, you know. Two members of Voyager's crew died as a direct result of what the Equinox crew does. I'd say that murder is a pretty serious crime, wouldn't you?

 

[DonIago]

Not serious enough to merit what Janeway did.

And it certainly sounds like Jeffreies is painting it as a binary situation since they keep saying things like "What should she have done instead, sat on her hands and done nothing?"

 

[AuntKate]

Except that part of being a Startfleet Captain is putting aside your personal feelings when they compromise you. Hell, Trek '09 covered that one.

Janeway had every right to feel as she did. That doesn't mean she's in any position to abuse her power as a Starfleet Captain in order to act on her feelings.

You said it yourself - you're a doctor. If someone you hate comes in with a gunshot wound, do you refuse to treat them or make it painful for them because they're an asshat, or do you fulfill your oath, do everything you can to help them, and put your feelings aside for the time-being?

I don't think this doctor analogy works here. Sorry. Janeway was acting as a police authority, not a medical practitioner.

What she did was not an abuse of power, but a discretionary use of it. She applied pressure, but allowed her second in command to prevent any harm to Lessing. Following this, Lessing did, in fact help them, even though he did not give them the command codes, as Janeway requested. Would he have cooperated if it hadn't been for her actions? Your guess is as good as mine. Ultimately, her actions worked and she was able to eliminate the threat.

 

[AuntKate]

Not serious enough to merit what Janeway did.

And it certainly sounds like Jeffreies is painting it as a binary situation since they keep saying things like "What should she have done instead, sat on her hands and done nothing?"

I'm sorry, but the murder of two people is certainly reason enough for what she did to Lessing, especially when the lives of the rest of the crew hung in the balance.

 

[exodus]

What about the fact that Lessing's actions, along with those of the rest of the Equinox crew, could be considered attempted murder of everyone on Voyager? The courts are very lenient in cases of self-defense, and the police are given much leeway in what they can and can't do or say to people who are suspects of serious crimes (they can lie to them, tell them have evidence the don't have, etc.). This was a matter of life or death to Voyager and its crew, don't forget. What we might not accept in normal situations is often forgiven when we are under duress, and I think Starfleet would see this as one of those times.

Starfleet doesn't approve of torture or the death penalty.
What Janeway did wasn't self defense because at the time she wasn't being threatened. She was doing to to trying to extract information. Wasn't the Geneva Convention put in place to prevent such acts? Wasn't that why waterboarding and Abu Grave was such a controversy a few years ago?

I disagree. She and everyone in the ship was being threatened by the aliens, all thanks to Lessing's actions (along with his captain and crew). While it might not be self defense in the truest sense (that is fighting back against an assault), her life was very much in danger.

Such is the life of any military officer in the field.
The mistreatment of prisoners was covered in "Repentance".
Tom Paris wasn't mistreated either and he was in a penal colony for actually killing someone.
So no, I don't believe Starfleet would approve of her actions based on what we've seen and explained. Sorry.

 

[AuntKate]

Starfleet doesn't approve of torture or the death penalty.
What Janeway did wasn't self defense because at the time she wasn't being threatened. She was doing to to trying to extract information. Wasn't the Geneva Convention put in place to prevent such acts? Wasn't that why waterboarding and Abu Grave was such a controversy a few years ago?

I disagree. She and everyone in the ship was being threatened by the aliens, all thanks to Lessing's actions (along with his captain and crew). While it might not be self defense in the truest sense (that is fighting back against an assault), her life was very much in danger.

Such is the life of any military officer in the field.
The mistreatment of prisoners was covered in "Repentance".
Tom Paris wasn't mistreated either and he was in a penal colony for actually killing someone.
So no, I don't believe Starfleet would approve of her actions based on what we've seen and explained. Sorry.

Apologies accepted.

However, Starfleet must have forgiven her, or they would never have promoted her to admiral.

"Repentance" isn't really a good comparison, either, since those people had gone through the legal system and been found guilty. In the heat of the moment, more leeway is given for the collection of information that could be of life-or-death importance.

A military officer in the field who kills another person in the line of duty is not guilty of murder.

 

[Jefferies]

Except that part of being a Startfleet Captain is putting aside your personal feelings when they compromise you. Hell, Trek '09 covered that one.

Janeway had every right to feel as she did. That doesn't mean she's in any position to abuse her power as a Starfleet Captain in order to act on her feelings.

You said it yourself - you're a doctor. If someone you hate comes in with a gunshot wound, do you refuse to treat them or make it painful for them because they're an asshat, or do you fulfill your oath, do everything you can to help them, and put your feelings aside for the time-being?

I'm not quite a doctor yet But that day will come . And yes I would never refuse treatment, unless the treatment itsself were unethical. Nor would I ever harm a patient if it can be avoided. But I don't think Janeway was on a power trip. She seized a chance to get information so she could apprehend Ransom. Did she do this in a calm and collected manner? No, she didn't. She acted impulsively and I suppose that was an act of weakness. But going as far as saying she was reveling the situation is simply bonkers. In fact I think she felt quite a bit of regret at the end of the episode. This shows her attitude was much more ambivilant than you give her credit for.

 

[DonIago]

Not serious enough to merit what Janeway did.

And it certainly sounds like Jeffreies is painting it as a binary situation since they keep saying things like "What should she have done instead, sat on her hands and done nothing?"

I'm sorry, but the murder of two people is certainly reason enough for what she did to Lessing, especially when the lives of the rest of the crew hung in the balance.

Even if Starfleet Regulations prohibit it?