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Did Kirk's rather *enthusiastic* execution of Nero bug you?

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Once again: That the planet was falling onto a black hole at the time. Chekov said "Gravitational sensors are off the scale" - I think this one's as believable as the rest of the excuses Trek's used over the years to make beaming difficult whenever the plot calls for it. The only difference is that they made it really spectacular (what kkozoriz1 would no doubt call "stupid":rommie:)this time instead of the usual lingering shots of sparkles slowly failing to materialize on the transporter pad.

Yes, I agree that the gravitational fluctuations caused by red matter SHOULD have been the cause of the difficult transport and WOULD have prevented transporting Nero or his crew off Narada at the end. However, that's not what they said in the movie. This is why I keep saying that the movie just required about a dozen or so tweaks to give it more internal consistency.

Splatting on the pad was a silly shot though since we know that the transporter reforms you in a stationary upright position (sometimes but jot always in te same pose) - it isn't like a transport where the body is teleported intact through a dimensional corridor with kinetic energy intact (good thing too or they'd be dead). It doesn't bother me as it was just a silly visual joke but it does suggest a rather illogical alteration to transporter technology - we can send you a light year but we can't stand you up or reform you on the transporter pad floor. :rolleyes:
 
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Plus, whatever the character's views, Kirk's reaction in STVI was intended to be viewed in a negative light by the writers. The audience is rooting for the peace process and by the end of the movie Kirk can see the error of his ways. This doesn't compare to NuTrek where viewers are encouraged to approve of the summary execution. Kirk's decision to spare Maltz is the most comparable situation albeit on a much smaller scale.

Kirks' decision to spare Maltz, while written and delivered for a giggle, was worse than killing him FOR A KLINGON. It has no honor to be (especially now, the only Klingon) captured while his comrades have been killed in glorious battle. Kirk would have been nice to kill him. What Kirk did was an additional slap in the face.
 
Plus, whatever the character's views, Kirk's reaction in STVI was intended to be viewed in a negative light by the writers. The audience is rooting for the peace process and by the end of the movie Kirk can see the error of his ways. This doesn't compare to NuTrek where viewers are encouraged to approve of the summary execution. Kirk's decision to spare Maltz is the most comparable situation albeit on a much smaller scale.

Kirks' decision to spare Maltz, while written and delivered for a giggle, was worse than killing him FOR A KLINGON. It has no honor to be (especially now, the only Klingon) captured while his comrades have been killed in glorious battle. Kirk would have been nice to kill him. What Kirk did was an additional slap in the face.

Lol - very true and very deliberate in my view. Nero would have felt the same stewing in (another) prison with his revenge unfulfilled.
 
Splatting on the pad was a silly shot though since we know that the transporter reforms you in a stationary upright position (sometimes but jot always in te same pose) -

So, they had to reconfigure the transporters to beam Kirk and Co. over to the Fesarius?
 
Splatting on the pad was a silly shot though since we know that the transporter reforms you in a stationary upright position (sometimes but jot always in te same pose) -

So, they had to reconfigure the transporters to beam Kirk and Co. over to the Fesarius?

I think so. Think about how difficult it would be for the transportees to crouch in exactly the right position for a location they cannot see. From a safety perspective it makes far more sense that the transporter can rebuild them in a position that means they don't end up inside a ceiling or a wall, even if that means they have to be rebuilt crouching a bit lower than when they left. It may not be necessary in most cases and most beam down sites are situated in wide open spaces but it makes sense that the option is there.
 
Why would he blame an entire race for the actions of Kruge who was already dead?

Ask Kirk, he's the one who said it.

He did not in TSFS, TVH or TFF. It's only TUC that turned Kirk into the irrational bitter racist (and even that ended with Kirk overcoming it). And btw, both Shatner and Roddenberry hated Kirk being like that.



It's funny what happened here. Star Trek has mostly been a moral utopia. You lend the hand to someone who killed your son. You try to understand the motives of a mass murderer and allow him to redeem himself. You don't waste 600 lives to save a billion lives. You don't misuse a single human being to destroy a race of machines that endanger the entire galaxy. Capital punishment is no longer considered a justifiable deterrent. If they had to kill someone, they did it in self defense. That's of course not what most of the people think or agree with, because their morale is limited to "an eye for an eye". And which is why they like it that Trek has been "dumbed down" morally. Kirk is now reacting like they would. Which is pretty sad, because that was one of the points that made Trek good: it's rather utopic view of humans in the future, and that they would not react like today's people would.

Kirk also destroyed the Narada and wasted the opportunity to learn from it. Had they included the deleted scenes of Nero being in prison for 25 years, this would have been even worse, because the Klingons would have had 25 years to study the Narada with 24th century technology, but Kirk just destroys it without thinking a single step ahead.
 
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He definitely executed the Cloud Creature without much hesitation, and Spock did much the same for the salt vampire.

He knew how dangerous it was and it clearly posed an on going threat. I believe it was impossible to reason with and was about to spawn, compounding the problem enormously. It was either the creature or many of the rest of the life forms in the galaxy. Kirk really had no choice. It was a matter of "self" defence.

The salt vampire was actually threatening Kirks life when it was killed. So when Bones finally shot it, again that’s self defence or the defence of others. I.e. justifiable.

In neither case is anyone doing it out of vengeance. Though I am not suggesting there aren’t shades of grey in Star Trek.

As it stands, the only reason he didn't kill the Gorn--or for that matter, the Horta--is because both demonstrated at the last minute some redeemable quality; the Gorn had explained the reason for the attack was essentially a territorial misunderstanding, while the Horta had hesitated to kill him and demonstrated itself to be slightly less dangerous than Kirk expected.

The above are examples of where Kirk is "at war" with other species yet makes peace. Not sure how that proves he is ruthless and vengeful? Sorry but you have yet to convince me Kirk would kill something if it wasn’t a continuing threat to himself or others and there was no other reasonable course of action available.

Even after Kruge falls into the larva, Kirks expression doesn’t seem to be enjoyment. Despite provocation it’s more relief.


Kirk isn't going to spare your life if you don't want to be spared, that's just how he roles. With perhaps the exception of Kruge's man, "Wait! You said you would kill me!"

I think you misjudge Kirk. So far I am not aware of any situation where he has actively killed anything that was both at his mercy and was no longer presenting a threat. Not even if they wanted him to. Besides, Nero never asked to be killed. He just didn’t want Kirks help. A sizeable difference! Anyway, in Nero’s case he is presented as insane. We don’t kill insane people because they say insane things. Kirk needed a better reason than that.


UFO said:
At minimum they would require a line of dialogue to justify destroying Nero on the basis of unknown risk. A thin excuse given the way he is presented but enough to take the edge off at least. So we are talking about ten seconds of screen time.

Granted. And yet nobody else really missed it, so it doesn't make that much of a difference.

Nobody eh? Thanks, I hold you in great esteem as well. ;)

If hardly anyone cares one way or that other (which is a worry in its own right) why not do it and possibly win over another few percent of your audience?


Do you suppose that Kirk was bluffing when he ordered General Order 24 to be carried out on Eminiar VII? I for one do not. On the other hand, we know that planet-crushing vengence--if opportunistic in nature, like I said earlier--is hardly beyond Kirk's capabilities.

I agree it looks like that but we don't "know" it because it didn't happen (or are you refering to another example?). True, you get the feeling he would have done it but on the other hand there is not much point in bluffing if it looks like a bluff.

What we can say is that planet had effectively declared war on the Federation. I would not argue that Kirk couldn’t be a hard man. The scale seems over the top but he was working for the future of the planet as much as the welfare of the hostages I believe.

Or tell me if this rings a bell:

Spock: Jim, there is an historic opportunity here.
Kirk: Don't believe them! Don't trust them!
Spock: They are dying.
Kirk: Let them die!

Yes, as others have suggested, this might be the writers of that movie making a point at Kirk's expense. Compare it to STXI where they don’t even seem to realise there are moral issues let-alone resolve them.

The Nero/Kruge analogy is valid. Offered to be saved, counter-offer of trying to kill Kirk (Nero still may have had that option),... .

Which is why he graciously let himself be destroyed rather that use it! ;)
No, Nero was finished as a threat to the Enterprise. No-one can seriously doubt he would have tried to destroy it if he could have.

It seems likely that either the Kirk/Kruge or Kirk/Khan resolution was the inspiration for the Kirk/Nero/black hole scene but sadly the writers applied today's morality to it.

By the way, with regard to Khan, he decided his own end. Maybe Kirk could have tried to save him but that would have taken vital seconds to minutes they didn’t have.
 
He definitely executed the Cloud Creature without much hesitation, and Spock did much the same for the salt vampire.

He knew how dangerous it was and it clearly posed an on going threat. I believe it was impossible to reason with and was about to spawn, compounding the problem enormously. It was either the creature or many of the rest of the life forms in the galaxy. Kirk really had no choice. It was a matter of "self" defence.

The salt vampire was actually threatening Kirks life when it was killed. So when Bones finally shot it, again that’s self defence or the defence of others. I.e. justifiable.

In neither case is anyone doing it out of vengeance. Though I am not suggesting there aren’t shades of grey in Star Trek.

As it stands, the only reason he didn't kill the Gorn--or for that matter, the Horta--is because both demonstrated at the last minute some redeemable quality; the Gorn had explained the reason for the attack was essentially a territorial misunderstanding, while the Horta had hesitated to kill him and demonstrated itself to be slightly less dangerous than Kirk expected.

The above are examples of where Kirk is "at war" with other species yet makes peace. Not sure how that proves he is ruthless and vengeful? Sorry but you have yet to convince me Kirk would kill something if it wasn’t a continuing threat to himself or others and there was no other reasonable course of action available.

Even after Kruge falls into the larva, Kirks expression doesn’t seem to be enjoyment. Despite provocation it’s more relief.




I think you misjudge Kirk. So far I am not aware of any situation where he has actively killed anything that was both at his mercy and was no longer presenting a threat. Not even if they wanted him to. Besides, Nero never asked to be killed. He just didn’t want Kirks help. A sizeable difference! Anyway, in Nero’s case he is presented as insane. We don’t kill insane people because they say insane things. Kirk needed a better reason than that.




Nobody eh? Thanks, I hold you in great esteem as well. ;)

If hardly anyone cares one way or that other (which is a worry in its own right) why not do it and possibly win over another few percent of your audience?




I agree it looks like that but we don't "know" it because it didn't happen (or are you refering to another example?). True, you get the feeling he would have done it but on the other hand there is not much point in bluffing if it looks like a bluff.

What we can say is that planet had effectively declared war on the Federation. I would not argue that Kirk couldn’t be a hard man. The scale seems over the top but he was working for the future of the planet as much as the welfare of the hostages I believe.

Or tell me if this rings a bell:

Yes, as others have suggested, this might be the writers of that movie making a point at Kirk's expense. Compare it to STXI where they don’t even seem to realise there are moral issues let-alone resolve them.

The Nero/Kruge analogy is valid. Offered to be saved, counter-offer of trying to kill Kirk (Nero still may have had that option),... .

Which is why he graciously let himself be destroyed rather that use it! ;)
No, Nero was finished as a threat to the Enterprise. No-one can seriously doubt he would have tried to destroy it if he could have.

It seems likely that either the Kirk/Kruge or Kirk/Khan resolution was the inspiration for the Kirk/Nero/black hole scene but sadly the writers applied today's morality to it.

By the way, with regard to Khan, he decided his own end. Maybe Kirk could have tried to save him but that would have taken vital seconds to minutes they didn’t have.

:bolian::techman::bolian::techman:
 
Splatting on the pad was a silly shot though since we know that the transporter reforms you in a stationary upright position (sometimes but jot always in te same pose) -

So, they had to reconfigure the transporters to beam Kirk and Co. over to the Fesarius?

I think so. Think about how difficult it would be for the transportees to crouch in exactly the right position for a location they cannot see. From a safety perspective it makes far more sense that the transporter can rebuild them in a position that means they don't end up inside a ceiling or a wall, even if that means they have to be rebuilt crouching a bit lower than when they left. It may not be necessary in most cases and most beam down sites are situated in wide open spaces but it makes sense that the option is there.

When it comes to transporters, nothing makes sense.
But it's always nice to see how you can come up with more fan-wanking to make the rest of Trek look so much better than Star Trek.
 
So, they had to reconfigure the transporters to beam Kirk and Co. over to the Fesarius?

I think so. Think about how difficult it would be for the transportees to crouch in exactly the right position for a location they cannot see. From a safety perspective it makes far more sense that the transporter can rebuild them in a position that means they don't end up inside a ceiling or a wall, even if that means they have to be rebuilt crouching a bit lower than when they left. It may not be necessary in most cases and most beam down sites are situated in wide open spaces but it makes sense that the option is there.

When it comes to transporters, nothing makes sense.
But it's always nice to see how you can come up with more fan-wanking to make the rest of Trek look so much better than Star Trek.

Thanks for the compliment! :devil: I do agree that transporters don't make much sense though. Dig out the thread on whether transporters are kill and clone machines or not to see lots self-pleasuring on that point... :wtf:
 
I think so. Think about how difficult it would be for the transportees to crouch in exactly the right position for a location they cannot see. From a safety perspective it makes far more sense that the transporter can rebuild them in a position that means they don't end up inside a ceiling or a wall, even if that means they have to be rebuilt crouching a bit lower than when they left. It may not be necessary in most cases and most beam down sites are situated in wide open spaces but it makes sense that the option is there.

When it comes to transporters, nothing makes sense.
But it's always nice to see how you can come up with more fan-wanking to make the rest of Trek look so much better than Star Trek.

Thanks for the compliment! :devil: I do agree that transporters don't make much sense though. Dig out the thread on whether transporters are kill and clone machines or not to see lots self-pleasuring on that point... :wtf:

I don't care.
 
Once again: That the planet was falling onto a black hole at the time. Chekov said "Gravitational sensors are off the scale" - I think this one's as believable as the rest of the excuses Trek's used over the years to make beaming difficult whenever the plot calls for it. The only difference is that they made it really spectacular (what kkozoriz1 would no doubt call "stupid":rommie:)this time instead of the usual lingering shots of sparkles slowly failing to materialize on the transporter pad.

Kirk to Enterprise!
We're falling without a chute!

Beam us up!

- I'm trying, I can't lock on to your signal.
- Beam us up!

- You're moving too fast.
- Beam us up!

I can do that. I can do that!

Right there in the movie's own words. They couldn't lock on because they were falling too fast.

The black hole didn't seem to affect Spock's beaming down. Nor did it affect him Beaming back up with the council. Amanda was lost when the ground collapsed under her. A number of minutes passed between Spock beaming down and back up so the conditions don't seem to have changed much in that time.
 
Once again: That the planet was falling onto a black hole at the time. Chekov said "Gravitational sensors are off the scale" - I think this one's as believable as the rest of the excuses Trek's used over the years to make beaming difficult whenever the plot calls for it. The only difference is that they made it really spectacular (what kkozoriz1 would no doubt call "stupid":rommie:)this time instead of the usual lingering shots of sparkles slowly failing to materialize on the transporter pad.

Kirk to Enterprise!
We're falling without a chute!

Beam us up!

- I'm trying, I can't lock on to your signal.
- Beam us up!

- You're moving too fast.
- Beam us up!

I can do that. I can do that!

Right there in the movie's own words. They couldn't lock on because they were falling too fast.

The black hole didn't seem to affect Spock's beaming down. Nor did it affect him Beaming back up with the council. Amanda was lost when the ground collapsed under her. A number of minutes passed between Spock beaming down and back up so the conditions don't seem to have changed much in that time.

Neither of them were falling at that moment... well, except Amanda.
 
The initial point was that the transporter should be able to compensate for a difference in relative velocity of a few hundred kilometers per hour. Otherwise you'd have to be hovering over any person you wanted to transport. Spcok was moving at a pretty good clip when he crashed the jellyfish into the Narada. And Amanda hadn't even fallen out of frame when she was lost. She was hardly moving at all in relation to the others.
 
She was hardly moving at all in relation to the others.

Yes.
There was no need to compensate for further movement at that moment.
She fell right out of the transporter field (and was probably dead before Chekov could do anything about it).
 
Judge, Jury and executioner combined with the planet destroying power of a starship is a very dangerous combination.

Do you suppose that Kirk was bluffing when he ordered General Order 24 to be carried out on Eminiar VII? I for one do not. On the other hand, we know that planet-crushing vengence--if opportunistic in nature, like I said earlier--is hardly beyond Kirk's capabilities. Or tell me if this rings a bell:

Spock: Jim, there is an historic opportunity here.
Kirk: Don't believe them! Don't trust them!
Spock: They are dying.
Kirk: Let them die!

To which Shatner protested. Also note Spock's reaction. Both of them thought it was out of character for Kirk. It was written that way to have Kirk learn that it might be possible to live with the Klingons. Kirk didn't seem to have a problem dealing with the Klingons at the end of the previous movie. Why would he blame an entire race for the actions of Kruge who was already dead?

Also note that Kirk's response to "They are dying" wasn't "Hey, let's go put them out of their misery!"
 
Do you suppose that Kirk was bluffing when he ordered General Order 24 to be carried out on Eminiar VII? I for one do not. On the other hand, we know that planet-crushing vengence--if opportunistic in nature, like I said earlier--is hardly beyond Kirk's capabilities. Or tell me if this rings a bell:

To which Shatner protested. Also note Spock's reaction. Both of them thought it was out of character for Kirk. It was written that way to have Kirk learn that it might be possible to live with the Klingons. Kirk didn't seem to have a problem dealing with the Klingons at the end of the previous movie. Why would he blame an entire race for the actions of Kruge who was already dead?

Also note that Kirk's response to "They are dying" wasn't "Hey, let's go put them out of their misery!"

That's the story about Shatner's missing reaction shot. Kirk was supposed to regret his words the moment he said them.
 
To which Shatner protested. Also note Spock's reaction. Both of them thought it was out of character for Kirk. It was written that way to have Kirk learn that it might be possible to live with the Klingons. Kirk didn't seem to have a problem dealing with the Klingons at the end of the previous movie. Why would he blame an entire race for the actions of Kruge who was already dead?

Also note that Kirk's response to "They are dying" wasn't "Hey, let's go put them out of their misery!"

That's the story about Shatner's missing reaction shot. Kirk was supposed to regret his words the moment he said them.

What are you talking about?
We do see him regret his words.
 
kkozoriz1 said:
Right there in the movie's own words. They couldn't lock on because they were falling too fast.
So what? The black hole beneath was probably affecting the targeting scanners on the transporter. It looks to me like they were aiming manually.

She was hardly moving at all in relation to the others.
Amanda fell out of the beam once transport had already begun. We've never seen that in Star Trek before.
 
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