Did Kirk's rather *enthusiastic* execution of Nero bug you?

[Devon]

Dude, it's a television franchise. It doesn't have consistent moral values, it has RATINGS. I can guarantee you the "Because of it's consistent moral values" is not very high on the list of reasons why people love Star Trek.

Exactly. It's just an over exaggerated aspect that gets used only when it's convenient, and largely ignored during other times because there isn't too much to talk about with it.

Personally, I've found "All In The Family" to be more socially aware and thought provoking than Star Trek ever was as far as relevant issues go.

How many were quite so actively murderous?

"Klingon commander, this is Admiral James T. Kirk. I'm alive and well on the planet's surface. I know this may come as a pleasant surprise to you, but our ship was the victim of an unfortunate accident. Sorry about your crew, but as they say on Earth, cest la vive."

Then there was Khan ordering Kirk's death and his crew responsible for the deaths of the Regula 1 crew. Arrests made? 0. The Klingon bimbo's from Generations. Shields were down... could they just transport those dozen or so officers into the brig? Nope. What was more dramatically satisfying? The ship getting destroyed.

 

[Devon]

Oh, that's much better. He's in command but nobody else is capable of ding the job they were trained for so the cadet has to do it?

He's not a cadet, he's a ranking bridge officer.

 

[ST-One]

Spock is a pretty smart guy. He knows a thing or two about startships.

Aha.
So much for the image of the 'miracle-worker' Scotty then...

In TWOK, I don't recall Kirk smiling, popping a shot or two into the Reliant before he tried to get away from a dangerous situation.

Well, he just blasted one of the Reliant's nacelles off, blew her weapon's pod to bits (understandable) and punched a hole in her bridge dome... and THEN left without beaming any survivors aboard the Enterprise.
Apart from the fact that he didn't offer assistance he acted no different than he did with Nero.

Yet, what Meyer let Kirk do was okay, in your view, but what Orci and Kurtzman let him do wasn't. Why?

Lol - so the 17-year old with about an hour's experience as an officer is the only man who can command the bridge AND the only man who can work the transporter properly It makes you wonder what the other 400+ officers and crewmen are for...

Yeah, you have to wonder what the rest of the crew are good for.
Not much apparently, when we consider that the away-team in TMP consisted of Kirk, Spock, McCoy and Decker (Who would have thought? Only the main characters the film were present for the climax - no security guards, no specialists for old Earth technologies.) That's also why only with Spock's assistance the engines could be repaired (obviously the engineering crew is good for naught). That's why only Decker, of all the people aboard the Enterprise, could be the science officer...

Yeah, it's all such a stretch that the main characters in movies fill the scenes instead of a parade of minor characters we'll never see or hear from again.

I realise that they wanted to give the character something to do but it was a hamfisted way of involving him.

How is it 'hamfisted'?

Maybe if Number One had been badly injured in the initial fight and Chekov was asked to accompany her to sick bay - at least then he'd be on the correct deck!

We know on which deck that transporter room was?

 

[F. King Daniel]

At no point prior to Generations did we get a single hint Troi could pilot a starship, much less make an emergency landing. Riker, Worf and Data were all on the bridge at the time - do you really think Troi's a better pilot than all of them?

To make full Commander (which she did in the final season of TNG), Troi had to take a bridge officer's exam. Presumably, the ability to take the helm was part of this.

So, you're willing to presume that Troi's qualified despite a total lack of evidence, yet Chekov's "wrong" to sprout transporter skills at a moment's notice? Chekov was briefly left in command of the ship, yet you assume he hasn't any other skills outside navigation whatsoever?

Uh-huh.

with about an hour's experience

No, we were never told his experience level, nor was he seen with the rest of the cadets earlier. Scotty's nephew was supposed to be 14 in TWoK.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Where exactly did the idea that Nero's ship was built to survive travel through a black hole come from? Strange ability for a mining ship.

It came from the movie. Nero's ship already survived one journey through a black hole.

 

[Pauln6]

Yet, what Meyer let Kirk do was okay, in your view, but what Orci and Kurtzman let him do wasn't. Why?

Yeah, you have to wonder what the rest of the crew are good for.
Not much apparently, when we consider that the away-team in TMP consisted of Kirk, Spock, McCoy and Decker (Who would have thought? Only the main characters the film were present for the climax - no security guards, no specialists for old Earth technologies.) That's also why only with Spock's assistance the engines could be repaired (obviously the engineering crew is good for naught). That's why only Decker, of all the people aboard the Enterprise, could be the science officer...

Yeah, it's all such a stretch that the main characters in movies fill the scenes instead of a parade of minor characters we'll never see or hear from again.

I realise that they wanted to give the character something to do but it was a hamfisted way of involving him.

How is it 'hamfisted'?

Maybe if Number One had been badly injured in the initial fight and Chekov was asked to accompany her to sick bay - at least then he'd be on the correct deck!

We know on which deck that transporter room was?

I think the difference with the older movies was that it was not stated categorically that the enemy ships were no longer a threat. They were destroyed in the heat of battle - self defence if you will - where if you blink in the face of danger you get deaded. With hindsight we can say it was overkill but at the time it was reasonable force. That's not the same as saying a ship is doomed and then after a few minutes consideration blasting everybody on board.

TWoK sails closer to the wind but Kirk has more information about who is on the Reliant, his mains are offline, he's in a nebula that affects sensors (and therefore targeting scanners), and he has to get to a safe distance before Genesis goes off. Who knows how long it would have taken to locate and beam off Khan's surviving crew in these tricky circumstances? Kirk makes a judgment call on whether he can spare the time and decides not. Although transporters have a range of 40-80,000km, it's likely that as they fled, any hope of getting a lock was quickly lost.

There are similarlities to NuTrek with the imminent disaster of the black hole but it was never stated that scanners or transporters were affected by the singularity (light was able to pass from it so it couldn't have been that powerful at the time they were engaged in conversation). If Kirk had said, we cannot allow your ship to pass through another time corridor but we will render assistance and then tried but failed to beam them off the ship before blasting it, I would have said that was closer to following the decent moral code of the Federation.

I loathed the fact that Wesley was portrayed as being so much smarter than everybody else through seasons 1 & 2. I have no objection to him being smart, I just object to everyone else being made to look so dumb. I hold that line with NuChekov.

I find Chekov's role hamfisted because he had to run from the bridge where he was on duty to the transporter room and because it just isn't realistic that transporting a moving target would not be a standard part of emergency protocol. As has been pointed out, planets rotate and ships move - transporter targets are ALWAYS moving. That's why they carry beacons in their communicators and uniforms. It's like saying you can't use a mobile phone while driving in a car.

We don't know what deck the NuTransporter is on, it's true. It's not even clear if they have more than one on the NuEnterprise. However, we do know from official deck plans that TMP had 4 transporters (on Deck G I think - same deck as sick bay and security complex) as well as a two-man transporter on the bridge, plus one standard transporter and an emergency transporter in Engineering plus several cargo transporters.

I also agree with what you are saying about landing parties. I was more of a fan of the early Trek episodes where landing parties were more varied and had guest crew relevant to the mission. Voyager and Enterprise in particular fumbled this aspect by shoe-horning in the regular cast on missions. On the one hand I accept that they are paying these actors and want to use them. On the other hand, some guest actors developed into hugely popular characters e.g. Ro Laren or Shran and if you don't introduce any, you risk stunting the growth of the show.

The choice of landing party isn't quite so silly in TMP though. Kirk wants to be there as ever, Spock has a link and insight to V'ger as well as being an expert on computers, and Decker is their best hope of keeping the probe onside. McCoy is the only spare wheel and he may just have been there as medical support. A security guard should probably have been there too.

I agree wholeheartedly that Decker being the only person on Earth fully rated on the refit was a bit tenuous. Even on the ship they would need 3 officers to cover the three shifts. He may be the only senior officer available at short notice

 

[F. King Daniel]

Vulcan was being sucked into a black hole at the time. I would imagine that would complicate transport a great deal, certainly enough to excuse the difficulties seen in STXI.

I consider it more plausible than O'Brian's beaming into the past in DS9, Kirk being split in two, Pulaski's de-aging, Tuvix, the TNG crew being turned into children and the incredibly unlikely scenario that Kirk and co would be beamed into an evil alternate reality, right into their counterparts' clothes. FWIW I don't have a problem with those either, because Star Trek isn't real, and it's always changed how things work to suit the current story.

 

[kkozoriz1]

Where exactly did the idea that Nero's ship was built to survive travel through a black hole come from? Strange ability for a mining ship.

It came from the movie. Nero's ship already survived one journey through a black hole.

However, it was not designed to do so anymore than the Jellyfish was.

 

[Pauln6]

Vulcan was being sucked into a black hole at the time. I would imagine that would complicate transport a great deal, certainly enough to excuse the difficulties seen in STXI.

Yes I agree, gravitational distortion would be a plausible excuse for the difficulties but one that should have affected 'stationary' targets almost as much. It would also get Kirk off the hook at the end except that we then have to ask exactly what assistance he was planning to offer if he was going to try and beam people with no communicator signals off a ship that was right in the midst of the singularity (albeit a 'weak' one that didn't distort light, time, or communications signals). Compared to many of the other blips in the movie, the internal inconsistencies relating to this excsue are low enough to give it a pass I think.

 

[UFO]

Besides, Kirk's "glee" at destroying the genocidal Romulan lunatic that murdered his father, destroyed the entire Vulcan civilization and very nearly killed HIM on two separate occasions seems rather subdued compared to his vengeful glee at kicking Kruge into a lava flow or putting a torpedo up Chang's ass.

In both cases, if memory serves, they are in a relatively fair, no holds barred, fight. Certainly that’s the case with Chang. The gas seeking torpeado doesn’t seem to do too much actual damage to the BOP if you review the movie. The explosion in the bridge looks impressive but externally the ship seems completely intact. It was the phaser fire that destroyed the ship. The torpedo may have just "stunned it" for all Kirk and Sulu knew. In the middle of a battle they could not assume it was out for the count from one hit. If it re-cloaked they would have be stuffed.

Clearly these sort of examples are nothing like the situation where Nero is at Kirk’s mercy so I’m not sure why they are mentioned. I doubt anyone has a difficulty with doing what it takes to win a battle. Its how you behave once the battle is won that is being discussed. I know some conjecture that Nero might somehow escape but the writers give the impression he is finished and about to die.

The most you can say is that Kirk isn't the type to seek righteous retribution, but he's not one to pass it up if the opportunity presents itself.

If, for some reason, you are willing to confuse a battle with an execution that might be so. But I suspect, not otherwise. An example where he actually executes someone definitely at his mercy would be appreciated.

Well, the plot device has done his job and bows out? OK but others have suggested less obnoxious ways of doing that that.

Sure. All of which require alot more time to pull off, especially if you want the resolution to be believable and emotionally satisfying.

At minimum they would require a line of dialogue to justify destroying Nero on the basis of unknown risk. A thin excuse given the way he is presented but enough to take the edge off at least. So we are talking about ten seconds of screen time.

If your audiences want to see the bad guy finally and decisively defeated, you're taking a bit of a risk when you start introducing moral complications like "Sure he's a bad guy, but he should be brought to trial or possibly reformed of his insanity and we should talk to Romulus about making peace some time."

If the movie was organise better that would be ideal but I am not arguing they have to do something like that. Of course you could be wrong about people’s reactions to moral "complications".

Are we watching the same Star Trek? It's perfectly in-character for James T. Kirk, especially a young and impulsive Kirk with a much more volatile upbringing.

Well yes, I have already commented on the low standards of Star Fleet’s recruitment policies with regard to red shirts. It seems their corrective policies have taken a hit in the AU as well. Bearing in mind my comments above I remain unconvinced its in character for James T. Kirk. NuKirk might be another matter, but if so, Star Fleet should have reacted appropriately.

Kirk has always been the type to offer mercy to his defeated foe when he could afford to, but when all else fails it's "I... Have had... Enough of... YOU!"

Indeed, but if you recall after Kirk offered to save him, Kruge tried to drag Kirk over the edge. In other words, Kirk had to kick him off to save his own life. Once again, this is not the situation NuKirk faced. It is probably where the writers got the idea for their ending though. If so it would seem they don’t appreciate the distinction between the two situations either unfortunately.

Dude, it's a television franchise. It doesn't have consistent moral values, it has RATINGS. I can guarantee you the "Because of it's consistent moral values" is not very high on the list of reasons why people love Star Trek.

I suspect in the past people would have been more troubled by their absence than they are today sadly.

How many were quite so actively murderous?

"Klingon commander, this is Admiral James T. Kirk. I'm alive and well on the planet's surface. I know this may come as a pleasant surprise to you, but our ship was the victim of an unfortunate accident. Sorry about your crew, but as they say on Earth, cest la vive."

I know how you dislike repeating moral lessons but they were fighting each other! Not the same situation!

They were destroyed in the heat of battle - self defence if you will - where if you blink in the face of danger you get deaded.

Precisely so.

 

[Pauln6]

Besides, Kirk's "glee" at destroying the genocidal Romulan lunatic that murdered his father, destroyed the entire Vulcan civilization and very nearly killed HIM on two separate occasions seems rather subdued compared to his vengeful glee at kicking Kruge into a lava flow or putting a torpedo up Chang's ass.

In both cases, if memory serves, they are in a relatively fair, no holds barred, fight. Certainly that’s the case with Chang. The gas seeking torpeado doesn’t seem to do too much actual damage to the BOP if you review the movie. The explosion in the bridge looks impressive but externally the ship seems completely intact. It was the phaser fire that destroyed the ship. The torpedo may have just "stunned it" for all Kirk and Sulu knew. In the middle of a battle they could not assume it was out for the count from one hit. If it re-cloaked they would have be stuffed.

Clearly these sort of examples are nothing like the situation where Nero is at Kirk’s mercy so I’m not sure why they are mentioned. I doubt anyone has a difficulty with doing what it takes to win a battle. Its how you behave once the battle is won that is being discussed. I know some conjecture that Nero might somehow escape but the writers give the impression he is finished and about to die.

The most you can say is that Kirk isn't the type to seek righteous retribution, but he's not one to pass it up if the opportunity presents itself.

If, for some reason, you are willing to confuse a battle with an execution that might be so. But I suspect, not otherwise. An example where he actually executes someone definitely at his mercy would be appreciated.




At minimum they would require a line of dialogue to justify destroying Nero on the basis of unknown risk. A thin excuse given the way he is presented but enough to take the edge off at least. So we are talking about ten seconds of screen time.



If the movie was organise better that would be ideal but I am not arguing they have to do something like that. Of course you could be wrong about people’s reactions to moral "complications".



Well yes, I have already commented on the low standards of Star Fleet’s recruitment policies with regard to red shirts. It seems their corrective policies have taken a hit in the AU as well. Bearing in mind my comments above I remain unconvinced its in character for James T. Kirk. NuKirk might be another matter, but if so, Star Fleet should have reacted appropriately.




Indeed, but if you recall after Kirk offered to save him, Kruge tried to drag Kirk over the edge. In other words, Kirk had to kick him off to save his own life. Once again, this is not the situation NuKirk faced. It is probably where the writers got the idea for their ending though. If so it would seem they don’t appreciate the distinction between the two situations either unfortunately.




I suspect in the past people would have been more troubled by their absence than they are today sadly.

"Klingon commander, this is Admiral James T. Kirk. I'm alive and well on the planet's surface. I know this may come as a pleasant surprise to you, but our ship was the victim of an unfortunate accident. Sorry about your crew, but as they say on Earth, cest la vive."

I know how you dislike repeating moral lessons but they were fighting each other! Not the same situation!

They were destroyed in the heat of battle - self defence if you will - where if you blink in the face of danger you get deaded.

Precisely so.

Nicely said - this is pretty much how I viewed the situation. With regard to Kruge, Kirk uses taunts as a tried and tested way of riling his opponents into making foolish mistakes on a number of occasions from TOS onwards, particularly if he knows they have an ego or a temper. In STIII he needs to get back up on that ship somehow and he can only do that if they know he's on the planet.

 

[Devon]

Where exactly did the idea that Nero's ship was built to survive travel through a black hole come from? Strange ability for a mining ship.

It came from the movie. Nero's ship already survived one journey through a black hole.

However, it was not designed to do so anymore than the Jellyfish was.

Oh.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Hmm...I just thought it was case that Kirk just got tired of Nero's shit. End of story.


Kirk offered mercy. It was rejected with hate. IMO, an offer rejected is an offer revoked.

 

[Pauln6]

Hmm...I just thought it was case that Kirk just got tired of Nero's shit. End of story.


Kirk offered mercy. It was rejected with hate. IMO, an offer rejected is an offer revoked.

It was.

Watch the Rookie. At the end, Clint Eastwood, instead of arresting the suspect that he has wrestled to the ground, shoots him with a bullet into which he has previously carved the perp's name! And he too gets promoted. Adopting this approach isn't setting the storytelling bar very high though...

 

[Devon]

Adopting this approach isn't setting the storytelling bar very high though...

I don't think anyone was really claiming or asking if it was or not.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Hmm...I just thought it was case that Kirk just got tired of Nero's shit. End of story.


Kirk offered mercy. It was rejected with hate. IMO, an offer rejected is an offer revoked.

It was.

And that's really all there is to it. One less bad guy in the universe.

 

[Pauln6]

Hmm...I just thought it was case that Kirk just got tired of Nero's shit. End of story.


Kirk offered mercy. It was rejected with hate. IMO, an offer rejected is an offer revoked.

It was.

And that's really all there is to it. One less bad guy in the universe.

Tut tut - one man's bad guy is another man's hero.
Nero is so monodimensional and his motivation so questionable that we are left in no doubt that he deserves to die. We assume that his crew are equally bereft of any redeeming qualities because we don't see them acting against him. They are rather lacklustre villains due partly due to time constraints and the convoluted way they wanted to bring the crew together.

However, I go back to my example of Germans being ordered to kill British sailors instead of taking prisoners in WWII. Are you saying that the Germans were morally justified in killing those helpless sailors that were in favour of bombing German citizens? Are Palestinians justified in killing Israeli soldiers that believe that the killing of their children is an acceptable loss?

If Kirk is to become judge, jury, and executioner of Starfleet then that is more akin to the MU than TOS and that would be a terrible loss to the spirit of the original franchise.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Just for the sake of argument, Kirk Prime was never in a situation where he was confronted with the murderer of six billion people. He's fought mindless killer machines, evil robot psuedo-gods and dealt with Khan, who probably has the blood of millions on his hands from way back in the Eugenics Wars, but nothing on the scale of what Nero did. Nero's crime was a whole order of magnitude higher. We don't know for sure what Kirk Prime would have done, much less when he was 25.

 

[Photoman15]

First, the Enterprise (or any other starship) when in orbit is usually in a geosynchronous one so the motion of the planet, the orbit around it's sun, etc... are irrelevant when talking about transporters.

Second, How does Kirk know if Nero still had any weapons available? He gave him an option (which may or may not be feasible, but he gave it to him none the less) , Nero recited all the things he'd rather do than be rescued by Kirk (et al). Nero seemed like the type that would go down fighting. Kirk doesn't know if there were any weapons left, transporters operational or whatever. The Nero/Kruge analogy is valid. Offered to be saved, counter-offer of trying to kill Kirk (Nero still may have had that option), Kirk has had enough.

 

[Pauln6]

Just for the sake of argument, Kirk Prime was never in a situation where he was confronted with the murderer of six billion people. He's fought mindless killer machines, evil robot psuedo-gods and dealt with Khan, who probably has the blood of millions on his hands from way back in the Eugenics Wars, but nothing on the scale of what Nero did. Nero's crime was a whole order of magnitude higher. We don't know for sure what Kirk Prime would have done, much less when he was 25.

Kodos killed quite a few but the point is valid (although didn't Kirk talk Riley out of contemplating revenge?)