Did Kirk's rather *enthusiastic* execution of Nero bug you?

[JarodRussell]

That scene felt so tacked on. They probably figured the Enterprise never fired torpedoes, "but the audience expects torpedoes", and then they did that. Plus the writer's own "eye for an eye" mentality, because they can't differentiate between what they would do and what the fictional characters in an utopic future would do.

 

[C.E. Evans]

It was.

And that's really all there is to it. One less bad guy in the universe.

Tut tut - one man's bad guy is another man's hero.

Tut tut--he was no hero to the Federation, so no.

 

[Pauln6]

And that's really all there is to it. One less bad guy in the universe.

Tut tut - one man's bad guy is another man's hero.

Tut tut--he was no hero to the Federation, so no.

One of the subversive things I loved about NuBSG was when the humans started using suicide bombers to kill not only cylons but other humans who had decided to sign up as peacekeepers/police officers working for the cylons. Of particular note is when a cylon asks Roslin to denounce the bombings and she remains silent. Later on, the humans set up kanagaroo courts and start executing known or suspected collaborators. Are these the heroes or villains of the show?

Obviously in a TV show it is easier to use complex multi-layered 'heroes' and 'villains' than in a 2-hour movie but I found this to be a far more excitig and thought-provoking dynamic than the Nero-type of villain.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Tut tut - one man's bad guy is another man's hero.

Tut tut--he was no hero to the Federation, so no.

One of the subversive things I loved about NuBSG was when the humans started using suicide bombers to kill not only cylons but other humans who had decided to sign up as peacekeepers/police officers working for the cylons. Of particular note is when a cylon asks Roslin to denounce the bombings and she remains silent. Later on, the humans set up kanagaroo courts and start executing known or suspected collaborators. Are these the heroes or villains of the show?

The results of desperate civilizations, IMO.

Obviously in a TV show it is easier to use complex multi-layered 'heroes' and 'villains' than in a 2-hour movie but I found this to be a far more excitig and thought-provoking dynamic than the Nero-type of villain.

In a way, Nero had to be a fairly one-dimensional villain because a lot had to be crammed into that 2-hour movie--the establishment of a whole new Star Trek universe and a redefinition of the heroes. Nero's primary role wasn't to be a very complex villain, but someone who simply forced our heroes into action and had to be put down in the end.

The next movie, however, may have more time to devote to towards the characters, but generally a Star Trek movie tends to be more along the lines of action-adventure stories with a few character moments here and there. It's in the television format where you can do the reverse, because you can have many episodes to really develop characters...

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

When you guys have settled this you can move on to the "Kirk versus Picard" question - that one never gets old.

 

[kkozoriz1]

First, the Enterprise (or any other starship) when in orbit is usually in a geosynchronous one so the motion of the planet, the orbit around it's sun, etc... are irrelevant when talking about transporters.

Second, How does Kirk know if Nero still had any weapons available? He gave him an option (which may or may not be feasible, but he gave it to him none the less) , Nero recited all the things he'd rather do than be rescued by Kirk (et al). Nero seemed like the type that would go down fighting. Kirk doesn't know if there were any weapons left, transporters operational or whatever. The Nero/Kruge analogy is valid. Offered to be saved, counter-offer of trying to kill Kirk (Nero still may have had that option), Kirk has had enough.

Where do you get the idea that the ship is in geosynchronous orbit? The Enterprise was very close to the planet. Assuming Vulcan doesn't have a 2-4 hour day the ship was in a standard orbit.

Terminal velocity on Earth is about 195 km/h. Vulcan has a thinner atmosphere and stronger gravity so it'll be a bit more but still in that general neighborhood. Let's assume it's about 50% greater. Are you saying that every time we've seen someone transported the ship had to be hovering over them with the difference in their respective velocities was less than 300 km/h?

The difference was that Kruge waas activly trying to pull Kirk over the cliff. Nero's ship was in the process of being eaten by a black hole. No weapons were being fired. No indication that weapons were being charged. Kirk executed a man who was no longer a threat. Should the solders who found Saddam Hussein have just decided to execute him on the spot? No, they took him into custody and turned him over to the authorities for trial. It doesn't matter what the scale of the crime is. You capture, you put on trial, you pronounce sentence. He should have been turned over to the Vulcans for trial. They are the injured party. It's their right and responsibility.

Judge, Jury and executioner combined with the planet destroying power of a starship is a very dangerous combination.

 

[JarodRussell]

The Narada must have been geostationary because it was hovering over one spot.

 

[OneBuckFilms]

First, the Enterprise (or any other starship) when in orbit is usually in a geosynchronous one so the motion of the planet, the orbit around it's sun, etc... are irrelevant when talking about transporters.

Second, How does Kirk know if Nero still had any weapons available? He gave him an option (which may or may not be feasible, but he gave it to him none the less) , Nero recited all the things he'd rather do than be rescued by Kirk (et al). Nero seemed like the type that would go down fighting. Kirk doesn't know if there were any weapons left, transporters operational or whatever. The Nero/Kruge analogy is valid. Offered to be saved, counter-offer of trying to kill Kirk (Nero still may have had that option), Kirk has had enough.

Where do you get the idea that the ship is in geosynchronous orbit? The Enterprise was very close to the planet. Assuming Vulcan doesn't have a 2-4 hour day the ship was in a standard orbit.

Terminal velocity on Earth is about 195 km/h. Vulcan has a thinner atmosphere and stronger gravity so it'll be a bit more but still in that general neighborhood. Let's assume it's about 50% greater. Are you saying that every time we've seen someone transported the ship had to be hovering over them with the difference in their respective velocities was less than 300 km/h?

The difference was that Kruge waas activly trying to pull Kirk over the cliff. Nero's ship was in the process of being eaten by a black hole. No weapons were being fired. No indication that weapons were being charged. Kirk executed a man who was no longer a threat. Should the solders who found Saddam Hussein have just decided to execute him on the spot? No, they took him into custody and turned him over to the authorities for trial. It doesn't matter what the scale of the crime is. You capture, you put on trial, you pronounce sentence. He should have been turned over to the Vulcans for trial. They are the injured party. It's their right and responsibility.

Judge, Jury and executioner combined with the planet destroying power of a starship is a very dangerous combination.

Kirk offered assistance, and the assistance was refused, rather vehemently and venomously. Given what he did to his father, Vulcan, and almost the Earth, as well as countless fellow Starfleet cadets and officers, I frankly don't blame him for blowing him away.

Since there was no redemption on Nero's part, the possibility that he would emerge somewhere else to wreak havoc there, I'd say Kirk was right to do what he did after "You Got It".

 

[Crazy Eddie]

If, for some reason, you are willing to confuse a battle with an execution that might be so. But I suspect, not otherwise. An example where he actually executes someone definitely at his mercy would be appreciated.

He definitely executed the Cloud Creature without much hesitation, and Spock did much the same for the salt vampire. As it stands, the only reason he didn't kill the Gorn--or for that matter, the Horta--is because both demonstrated at the last minute some redeemable quality; the Gorn had explained the reason for the attack was essentially a territorial misunderstanding, while the Horta had hesitated to kill him and demonstrated itself to be slightly less dangerous than Kirk expected.

Kirk isn't going to spare your life if you don't want to be spared, that's just how he roles. With perhaps the exception of Kruge's man, "Wait! You said you would kill me!"

At minimum they would require a line of dialogue to justify destroying Nero on the basis of unknown risk. A thin excuse given the way he is presented but enough to take the edge off at least. So we are talking about ten seconds of screen time.

Granted. And yet nobody else really missed it, so it doesn't make that much of a difference.

Of course you could be wrong about people’s reactions to moral "complications".

I could be, but I'm not.

 

[JarodRussell]

Probably it was a conscious mockery of Batman Begins. Both films were an origin story, and BB ended with Batman saying I won't kill you, but I don't have to save you. And in nuTrek Kirk said I don't have to save you, and I am going to kill you.

 

[Photoman15]

First, the Enterprise (or any other starship) when in orbit is usually in a geosynchronous one so the motion of the planet, the orbit around it's sun, etc... are irrelevant when talking about transporters.

Where do you get the idea that the ship is in geosynchronous orbit? The Enterprise was very close to the planet. Assuming Vulcan doesn't have a 2-4 hour day the ship was in a standard orbit.

I was talking about the comments made that they always transport with the planet revolving, then orbiting, etc...
Not here, but, still we don't know if they were in that kind of orbit, but the Narada was.

 

[Photoman15]

If, for some reason, you are willing to confuse a battle with an execution that might be so. But I suspect, not otherwise. An example where he actually executes someone definitely at his mercy would be appreciated.

He definitely executed the Cloud Creature without much hesitation, and Spock did much the same for the salt vampire. As it stands, the only reason he didn't kill the Gorn--or for that matter, the Horta--is because both demonstrated at the last minute some redeemable quality; the Gorn had explained the reason for the attack was essentially a territorial misunderstanding, while the Horta had hesitated to kill him and demonstrated itself to be slightly less dangerous than Kirk expected.

Kirk isn't going to spare your life if you don't want to be spared, that's just how he roles. With perhaps the exception of Kruge's man, "Wait! You said you would kill me!"

At minimum they would require a line of dialogue to justify destroying Nero on the basis of unknown risk. A thin excuse given the way he is presented but enough to take the edge off at least. So we are talking about ten seconds of screen time.

Granted. And yet nobody else really missed it, so it doesn't make that much of a difference.

Of course you could be wrong about people’s reactions to moral "complications".

I could be, but I'm not.

I think he didn't kill the Gorn because he realized he was being judged by his actions. If there were no judge there, I don't know if he would have or not.

 

[kkozoriz1]

How fast was the Jellyfish moving when they beamed Spock off of it?

 

[Crazy Eddie]

How fast was the Jellyfish moving when they beamed Spock off of it?

Going by screen evidence, about four hundred miles per hour. Not that it matters much (and I'm kind of amazed nobody mentioned this earlier) but the preferred method of beaming someone out of a hazardous situation is by locking on to their communicator signal and beaming them out by those coordinates. Beaming people out by sensors alone is depicted as somewhat difficult to do, and is rarely even attempted.

Actually, the only time I can immediately recal this being done was when Chekov did it in "The Enterprise Incident."

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Judge, Jury and executioner combined with the planet destroying power of a starship is a very dangerous combination.

Do you suppose that Kirk was bluffing when he ordered General Order 24 to be carried out on Eminiar VII? I for one do not. On the other hand, we know that planet-crushing vengence--if opportunistic in nature, like I said earlier--is hardly beyond Kirk's capabilities. Or tell me if this rings a bell:

Spock: Jim, there is an historic opportunity here.
Kirk: Don't believe them! Don't trust them!
Spock: They are dying.
Kirk: Let them die!

 

[kkozoriz1]

Judge, Jury and executioner combined with the planet destroying power of a starship is a very dangerous combination.

Do you suppose that Kirk was bluffing when he ordered General Order 24 to be carried out on Eminiar VII? I for one do not. On the other hand, we know that planet-crushing vengence--if opportunistic in nature, like I said earlier--is hardly beyond Kirk's capabilities. Or tell me if this rings a bell:

Spock: Jim, there is an historic opportunity here.
Kirk: Don't believe them! Don't trust them!
Spock: They are dying.
Kirk: Let them die!

To which Shatner protested. Also note Spock's reaction. Both of them thought it was out of character for Kirk. It was written that way to have Kirk learn that it might be possible to live with the Klingons. Kirk didn't seem to have a problem dealing with the Klingons at the end of the previous movie. Why would he blame an entire race for the actions of Kruge who was already dead?

 

[kkozoriz1]

How fast was the Jellyfish moving when they beamed Spock off of it?

Going by screen evidence, about four hundred miles per hour. Not that it matters much (and I'm kind of amazed nobody mentioned this earlier) but the preferred method of beaming someone out of a hazardous situation is by locking on to their communicator signal and beaming them out by those coordinates. Beaming people out by sensors alone is depicted as somewhat difficult to do, and is rarely even attempted.

Actually, the only time I can immediately recal this being done was when Chekov did it in "The Enterprise Incident."

I doubt Captain Christopher was wearing a communicator in his F-104. Or Harry Mudd and the three "mail order brides". Etc, etc.

And yet in XI Kirk & Sulu both have active communicators but the reason given why they can't be locked onto is because the were traveling too fast. Amanda was hardly moving at all when she was lost although she was the only one that the ground collapsed under.

 

[Pauln6]

How fast was the Jellyfish moving when they beamed Spock off of it?

Going by screen evidence, about four hundred miles per hour. Not that it matters much (and I'm kind of amazed nobody mentioned this earlier) but the preferred method of beaming someone out of a hazardous situation is by locking on to their communicator signal and beaming them out by those coordinates. Beaming people out by sensors alone is depicted as somewhat difficult to do, and is rarely even attempted.

Actually, the only time I can immediately recal this being done was when Chekov did it in "The Enterprise Incident."

Ooh - me me, I called it earlier! My own view is that a communicator signal should be the ONLY way you can beam people around. Otherwise Scotty's technology that can beam people a light year can be used to good effect beaming enemy captains off their ships before they raise their shields. With a sensor buoy or relay to deflect the sensor signal around any obstacles and Enterprise could have beamed Nero and his crew off their ship by hiding around Jupiter while he was still passing through the Kaiper Belt.

Judge, Jury and executioner combined with the planet destroying power of a starship is a very dangerous combination.

Do you suppose that Kirk was bluffing when he ordered General Order 24 to be carried out on Eminiar VII? I for one do not. On the other hand, we know that planet-crushing vengence--if opportunistic in nature, like I said earlier--is hardly beyond Kirk's capabilities. Or tell me if this rings a bell:

Spock: Jim, there is an historic opportunity here.
Kirk: Don't believe them! Don't trust them!
Spock: They are dying.
Kirk: Let them die!

To which Shatner protested. Also note Spock's reaction. Both of them thought it was out of character for Kirk. It was written that way to have Kirk learn that it might be possible to live with the Klingons. Kirk didn't seem to have a problem dealing with the Klingons at the end of the previous movie. Why would he blame an entire race for the actions of Kruge who was already dead?

Plus, whatever the character's views, Kirk's reaction in STVI was intended to be viewed in a negative light by the writers. The audience is rooting for the peace process and by the end of the movie Kirk can see the error of his ways. This doesn't compare to NuTrek where viewers are encouraged to approve of the summary execution. Kirk's decision to spare Maltz is the most comparable situation albeit on a much smaller scale.

It might even have been more fun if Nero had rejected to Kirk's offer of help and then blown himself up by trying to shoot torpedoes which were sucked back in by the gravity well. Maybe somebody will do a Lucas-esque retcon like with Greedo!

 

[F. King Daniel]

Once again: That the planet was falling onto a black hole at the time. Chekov said "Gravitational sensors are off the scale" - I think this one's as believable as the rest of the excuses Trek's used over the years to make beaming difficult whenever the plot calls for it. The only difference is that they made it really spectacular (what kkozoriz1 would no doubt call "stupid")this time instead of the usual lingering shots of sparkles slowly failing to materialize on the transporter pad.

 

[Devon]

Why would he blame an entire race for the actions of Kruge who was already dead?

Ask Kirk, he's the one who said it.