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Do you have to be "dumb" to like Star Trek?

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Thing is that Trek was and is being used (as an inspiration) for real scientific theories about FTL and apparently various other technological devices we made today (not to mention it was initially based on actual science back in it's day and from time to time tries to be consistent).

Furthermore ... SF's technology is NOT only almost 400 years into the future ... it's roughly about 3000 years into the future because the Vulcans (the Humans closest allies) were a space-faring race for close to 3000 years before Humans and set a certain standard.
Humanity being exposed to those technologies caught up to everyone else in 2161 (when the Federation was founded) and effectively introduced 'fresh perspective' into it all by further advancing those technologies (plus with 150 member races in the Federation, the diversity of scientific perspective would be actually staggering and the potential for developing even more radically advanced technology faster presents itself).
And by the late 24th century, they found themselves at a transitioning point from a technological point of view yet again most notably in FTL fields, Time Treavel and various other areas.

Star Wars as such is effectively a fantasy (although I do enjoy watching the movies on rare occasion), while Trek tries to ground itself more in actual science.
But when held up to scrutiny, both fail miserably.

As for if Wars Empire would win against Trek SF ... that's highly debatable because we have limited information to form a coherent opinion on which one would emerge victorious (though I have to admit, I find the attempt intriguing).

Also ... if I'm not mistaken Wong studied the technical manual which was made for TNG and intentionally made up figures for Wars which would surpass those of Trek ships making it look so a Wars X-wing could destroy a Galaxy class ship in a single shot.

One other thing that crossed my mind was that Wars was effectively demonstrated as a technologically static universe.
While Trek's Federation hyper advanced in merely 600 years to the point where time travel is widely used, and another 400 years later where their entire technology is based around time travel in some kind of a fashion.
So, even if Trek's Federation in the 24th century would not be able to 'stand up' to the Empire ... mere 200 years later, they can probably easily wipe the Empire from existence using what they will have for 'conventional weapons' at that point (well actually, they can probably do it in the late 24th century as well)
 
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Problem with these debates is that they misunderstand the fact that Star Trek and Star Wars are primarily about storytelling, not worldbuilding. The notion that the Empire could defeat the Federation because it has more ships or whatever is nonsense since we know that the good guys are always going to win in the long term. That's why the Rebel Alliance defeated the Empire, why the Federation always beats the Borg in the end and why the Empire wouldn't stand a chance against the Federation. Storytelling logic, my friends.
 
To steal a phrase from Clerks II:

"There's only one 'Return,' okay?"

"And it ain't 'of the Jedi'."

"It's 'of the Archons'." :cool:
 
To answer a few questions:

• no, I didn't engage him or anyone else in the ST v SW battles debate. While some apparently find that interesting, it holds zero interest for me. At the risk of offending some, I would go as far and even call it rather silly. To me, it's like hypothesizing about whether the Sauron from Lord of the Rings could defeat Superman, and then talking about the power output if Superman's laser eyes vs the power output from Sauron's Eye (as analyzed by examining movie footage filmed by people trying to create a compelling visual drama without regard to physical calculations). But if you like it, I won't pester/ridicule you.

• my whole point in the OP is to discern whether the scientific realism (or non-realism) bothers anyone, especially those with science and engineering backgrounds. I was puzzled by Mr. Wong's et al. assertion that ST is so ludicrous that anyone short of high-school dropouts and the mentally ill (yes, he ascribes mental illness to a lot of ST fans) enjoys pretending the science/technobabble they talk about is real. i sure do.

• I wasn't trying to boast about my scienctific achievements. He lists again and again his credentials as, I believe, a mechanical engineer. I was trying to illustrate that my credentials are just as (or as an electrical engineer, better) than his. I'm actually quite humble (or humiliated): in real life, I'm a total loser. I have no friends, never have had a girlfriend, live with my mother, and am recovering from a major surgery that went wrong and caused me to lose my Navy research job. I'm essentially confined to bed about 18--20 hours per day right now, which is why I post so much here.

• I guess I should've been have thought things through better and realized the problem lies with people like Mr. Wong, who create enourmous web sites filled with pseudo-scientific explanations of why SW is cool/realistic/better and ST is dumb. When someone (as he did) gets into arguments about the Death Star's power by analyzing frame-by-frame its planetary destruction, that's never a good sign.

• Still, I wasn't trying to spark a ST v SW thread or even attack Mr. Wong. Again, I wish to know whether the technobabble/"science" on Trek bothers you, or causes enjoyment, or is irrelevant to you (ie, you just like the stories). As for me, I enjoy the calm and (apparent) rational manner in which, say, Geordi and Data describe a problem to the bridge crew in the briefing room. He has a section on his site in which he mocks ST by taking lines from SW and rewriting them in a silly way as if Data had said them. I like Data's technobabble. I think it'd be a blast to be a science officer or engineer on a Trek ship.

Finally, forgive my long-winded writing. Brevity is not my strength!

Thanks for the feedback, guys. Sorry for any trouble I caused.
 
Technobabble truly sucks when it introduces new capabilities ignored for the rest of time.

But I think somebody already mentioned it: enjoyment is easiest when you don't put it on too high a pedestal. For example, if you see Star Trek as tech fantasy, it's possible to swallow it without sacrificing too many brain cells. The moment you try to frame it as sci fi, you've more or less put a sign on your own back saying: "Kick me."
 
Technobabble truly sucks when it introduces new capabilities ignored for the rest of time.

But I think somebody already mentioned it: enjoyment is easiest when you don't put it on too high a pedestal. For example, if you see Star Trek as tech fantasy, it's possible to swallow it without sacrificing too many brain cells. The moment you try to frame it as sci fi, you've more or less put a sign on your own back saying: "Kick me."

You (and others) are right, and I agree. I've never argued with anyone that the "science" in Trek is believable, or that Trek is "hard" sci-fi.

That said, at least Trek tries to maintain internal consistency with its tech over the various shows (with some infamous exceptions!). And it's clear that a lot of the tech is plot-driven: the writers create or adapt the tech as necessary for each particular story. But some things do remain more or less consistent (eg, the notion that Starfleet's ships' warp drive is powered by matter-antimatter reactions of deuterium controlled by dilithium "crystals"/"matrix".)

Thanks for following up. I'd appreciate any further observations from those so inclined.
 
Do you have to be "dumb" to like Star Trek?
No. Nor do you have to be dumb to like Star Wars.

• no, I didn't engage him or anyone else in the ST v SW battles debate. While some apparently find that interesting, it holds zero interest for me. At the risk of offending some, I would go as far and even call it rather silly. To me, it's like hypothesizing about whether the Sauron from Lord of the Rings could defeat Superman, and then talking about the power output if Superman's laser eyes vs the power output from Sauron's Eye (as analyzed by examining movie footage filmed by people trying to create a compelling visual drama without regard to physical calculations). But if you like it, I won't pester/ridicule you.
That's quite all right. It's a debate which holds no interest for me, either.

There's Star Trek. And then there's Star Wars. And... that's it, as far as I'm concerned; one or the other doesn't have to win a contest of science or fleet strength or anything else. Heck, Star Wars is a long time ago, anyway, and in a galaxy far, far away. Plenty of room for both, right?

If Darth Wong wants to have a contest over at his place, then he's welcome to go right ahead. I'll just sit that one out.
 
Who the fuck is Michael Wong? :rommie:

Starfleet is not a military organization
Okay this one tidbit might be interesting to discuss. I maintain that Starfleet is a completely new critter and does not map easily to 21st C notions of what is military or not military. It is less military than we understand the term, but still retains military characteristics appropriate to Earth and Federation culture of the time.

"Starfleet is not a military organisation, its purpose is exploration." - Jean-Luc Picard Peak Performance

"I'm a soldier, not a diplomat." - James T Kirk Errand of Mercy

I think Starfleet is as military as the episode requires!

Kirk was 23rd C, Picard was 24th. Also, Picard is a wuss. :p Sisko was in the 24th C and had no problem throwing a punch.
A Star Wars fan disses Trek as UNREAL AND STUPID?!
Midichlorians! I win! :p

Who the fuck is Michael Wong? :rommie:

The latest idiot who wants to build himself up by tearing Star Trek fans down, that's who.

Ignore him.

But it's more fun to make fun of him.

Midichlorians! I win again! :p
 
To answer a few questions:

• I wasn't trying to boast about my scienctific achievements. He lists again and again his credentials as, I believe, a mechanical engineer. ...

• I guess I should've been have thought things through better and realized the problem lies with people like Mr. Wong, who create enourmous web sites filled with pseudo-scientific explanations of why SW is cool/realistic/better and ST is dumb. When someone (as he did) gets into arguments about the Death Star's power by analyzing frame-by-frame its planetary destruction, that's never a good sign.

• Still, I wasn't trying to spark a ST v SW thread or even attack Mr. Wong. ...

That's OK, we'll do it for you. :) Anyone who goes through the trouble of listing his credentials over and over again to "prove" that he must be correct deserves closer inspection. For instance, how many "experienced and respected" economists blew the recession forecast? As other posters and I have already pointed out, Mr. Wong misses the point of both SW and ST. They're modern mythologies, not history.
 
I don't think that liking ST or anything else necessarily makes you dumb, but it doesn't make you smart, either. Something you watch on TV is probably not going to be the pinnacle of your intellectual life.

It's all genre entertainment that might be a fun escape for some people.
 
Did Mr Wong watch all five series and the films?

Personally, I think the new trilogy of Star Wars has some cool moments, but it is seriously flawed because of the over use of CGI. The original Star Wars trilogy is a pretty darn near perfect. But it in no way does 3 movies outshine hundreds of hours of kick butt Star Trek, though.
 
So what do you guys think about people such as Mr. Wong who ridicule ST fans
Nothing.

So I ask you (especially fellow scientists/engineers): does the pseudo-technology in Trek bother you?
I'm an astronomer. While the occasional scientific faux-pas makes me cringes, I realize Star Trek is entertainment, not a seminar. As others have said, it's about storytelling, not worldbulding.
 
Yes and no.

Star Trek crosses a vast spectrum of people from "Comic Book Guys", and stoners, all the way up to corporate types and people in power. I am sure that many military people like Star Trek


I would say that about 90% of people who smoke pot like Star Trek. Most everyone w
It was these people who kept TOS afloat in the 1960's. A popular saying among cocaine freaks is "Beam me up Scotty." or "Beam me up Shinzon, you wanker!"

What I like about Star Trek is that for an hour, I am in the fantasy of the show. It's like an escape. Same is true with all TV shows that we like.

Go to a Star Trek convention to see the type of people who like the show. They are a lot of fun and worth the cost. I like the merchandise table the most.
 
I think you have to be dumb to like Star Wars, in honesty.

If we look at the great Trek offering per series, as such:

- The Wrath of Khan
- The Best of Both Worlds
- The Inner Light
- Darmok
- In the Pale Moonlight
- Far Beyond the Stars
- Duet
- Scorpion
- Year of Hell

We don't just look at them for big space battles, but such episodes' acting and writing.

In short, Trek is the thinking man's sci-fi. Star Wars has, and is not intended to, provide any deeper meaning to it, or represent any idea or thoughts. To use a film analogy, Star Wars is like the Mission Impossible films of the early 2000s. All action and no meaning. :D
 
Congratulations to everyone in this thread who's turned it into an either/or Trek/Wars debate. You've just become the Mirror Universe versions of the folks at SD.net.
 
At the risk of sounding primitive, I think that there is something psychologically amiss with the Wong character. I ran through his website a while back and I though it's interesting that they analyzed possible power of weapons. Then I went on the forum, and there is so much hatred and pent up geek rage, I simply couldn't believe that grown people act like that. Those people don't realize that some guy working for Lucas walked into his office and wrote that x-wing laser has the power rating of 549.33127 petatons. Then, they sold the book for $30 to the likes of Wong who go and make themselves feel like winners since their universe beat Star Trek universe. What losers.

As for Trek technology, it doesn't bother me at all. It's just a great vehicle for storytelling, since it's interesting and different from what we are used to in our everyday lives. As you said it's escapism. In fact, that storytelling inspires me to strive for better humanity. We might not be able to develop the transporter like in Trek, but non-technology aspects are fantastic and completely possible even within our lifetimes. If only people would wake up, we could:
-Have peace on Earth
-Eliminate hunger and poverty
-Empower even more scientific research (NASA budged = 20 billion, Military budged=700 billion :rolleyes:) in US alone.
-Eliminate huge amounts of diseases in 3rd world countries, combat and find cures for big ones today
-Raise the standard of living for everyone
-Have clean atmosphere and protect the planet
-Improve the education
etc etc, there are so many things that can be done better

And sorry to hear about your personal situation Capstrum. You seem like a good guy. Hopefully things will get better with your health, that's what matters, not whether you live with your mom or not. When you're back on your feet, a guy with your degree + experience get get a fantastic job, buy a house, nice car, and somebody that's right for you will come along. Get well.
 
At the risk of sounding primitive, I think that there is something psychologically amiss with the Wong character. I ran through his website a while back and I though it's interesting that they analyzed possible power of weapons. Then I went on the forum, and there is so much hatred and pent up geek rage, I simply couldn't believe that grown people act like that. Those people don't realize that some guy working for Lucas walked into his office and wrote that x-wing laser has the power rating of 549.33127 petatons. Then, they sold the book for $30 to the likes of Wong who go and make themselves feel like winners since their universe beat Star Trek universe. What losers.

As for Trek technology, it doesn't bother me at all. It's just a great vehicle for storytelling, since it's interesting and different from what we are used to in our everyday lives. As you said it's escapism. In fact, that storytelling inspires me to strive for better humanity. We might not be able to develop the transporter like in Trek, but non-technology aspects are fantastic and completely possible even within our lifetimes. If only people would wake up, we could:
-Have peace on Earth
-Eliminate hunger and poverty
-Empower even more scientific research (NASA budged = 20 billion, Military budged=700 billion :rolleyes:) in US alone.
-Eliminate huge amounts of diseases in 3rd world countries, combat and find cures for big ones today
-Raise the standard of living for everyone
-Have clean atmosphere and protect the planet
-Improve the education
etc etc, there are so many things that can be done better

And sorry to hear about your personal situation Capstrum. You seem like a good guy. Hopefully things will get better with your health, that's what matters, not whether you live with your mom or not. When you're back on your feet, a guy with your degree + experience get get a fantastic job, buy a house, nice car, and somebody that's right for you will come along. Get well.
Thanks, ET, for the vote of confidence. I certainly don't feel so optimistic right now, and coming across Wong's site (and the others in his cohort) certainly didn't cheer me up. ;)
 
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