Torchwood Sucks

[Pindar]

The cost of the deus ex machina was his grandson.

No, as already said it was not a Deus ex Machina.

That's hardly great writing; it's clear to me they wanted to have Jack do something like that so it could look dark and tragic.

Well of course they did, that's what writers do. They have an idea about a story and what they want the characters to do and then they write it down.

To me the story was overlong, a bit boring in places, and flawed in its premise.

How was the premise flawed?

And the PM was unrealistically twunty just so we could have Frobisher do in his family for the sake of more manufactured tragedy.

The cabinet scenes were extremely convincing and Frobisher was well realised character. He didn't kill his family because the PM was a bit mean to him, he killed them to save them from the alien abuse and then killed himself because he couldn't live with what he/his life had become.

Children of Earth was what Torchwood promised from the beginning. Adult compelling viewing and one of the best shows the BBC have produced for a long time.

I can understand people not liking it because the tone was too dark and didn't sit well with them, but it was not boring.

It was compelling and we have not had a science fiction show like CoE for a long time and it will probably be a long time before we a get a show that good again.

 

[Bones2]

It was a deus ex machina. "Oh by the way, it seems impossible to defeat, but run a magic signal through your grandson's head and the plot will resolve itself". I'm not sure what's more stupid out of that or the idea that the creatures use children for drugs.

I'm not at all bothered by the dark tone and I agree Frobisher was a great character and well played, but that doesn't compensate for the flawed plot.

 

[Iamnotspock]

It was a deus ex machina. "Oh by the way, it seems impossible to defeat, but run a magic signal through your grandson's head and the plot will resolve itself". I'm not sure what's more stupid out of that or the idea that the creatures use children for drugs.

No it really wasn't. The whole thing with the 456 using a signal to communicate through the children was set up from the very beginning, and then the fact that they used it to kill Clem led into the final episode with Jack realising that the signal can be fed back the same way: through a chil.

Whichever way you look at it, it was not a deus ex machina.

 

[HappyDayRiot]

It was a deus ex machina. "Oh by the way, it seems impossible to defeat, but run a magic signal through your grandson's head and the plot will resolve itself". I'm not sure what's more stupid out of that or the idea that the creatures use children for drugs.

I don't think it can be explained in clearer terms why it's not a deus ex machina. It was set-up - albiet perhaps in RTD's usual underdeveloped manner, as in Last of the Time Lords - throughout the serial, from the use of the signal by the 456, the study of it by the Government, and the use of the signal to kill Clem. There's nothing magical about it, nor is there any obvious other way to resolve the issue without fucking up the whole Whoniverse.

I'd like to ask as well why you think the premise was flawed? I think there were plot holes - like why the children were drugs, why the 456 couldn't manufacture more by themselves, why they wanted 12 in 1965 and then 3,000,000 or whatever it was in 2009 - but I don't see the holes in the actual premise. I do agree however it was a bit overlong - Day Two could easily have not existed. Does anything important happen in it aside from Jack being rescued?

It's flawed sure, but I think even you will extend to admitting it's one of RTD's best efforts.

 

[Hoser]

A Deus Ex takes a tragic ending and makes it a happy ending with a contrivance of some sort, like 10's extra hand taking the regen energy.
Having to choose between the life of a child or the world isn't a deus ex, it's a tragic choice.

 

[hyzmarca]

The big problem is that there was no serious resistance. Whoniverse Earth has several groups with big honkin' space guns that could have blasted the 456 to kingdom come, but there wasn't even an attempt made. Everyone just capitulated. Even UNIT.

Of course, if that happened you'd have a single episode in which UNIT uses radio triangulation to locate the 456's ship and blows them all up. UNIT has fought Daleks before. Compared to Daleks, the 456 are nothing.

But that wasn't the story, so every responsible agency in the world had to be rendered totally incompetent.

And really, there is no possible way that they could get every government in the world to go along with that insane plan. Some countries don't even have functional governments, others would insist on fighting even if it was suicidal.

 

[HappyDayRiot]

I don't disagree with that concern. However, I've always considered Earth's defences were probably pretty smashed by the Daleks a few months before (The Stolen Earth). Also, they had next to no intel on the 456's capabilities, forces or numbers. In fact, didn't someone state they couldn't even detect any ships around Earth? Not to mention the 456 had the killswitch for the children which could have been triggered at the very moment of attack. Not the greatest gamble to take, is it?

And don't UNIT usually get their asses handed to them anyway?

The lack of serious resistance is a legitimate concern. But I think it can be rationalised in a number of ways.

 

[Bones2]

It's flawed sure, but I think even you will extend to admitting it's one of RTD's best efforts.

Yeah, certainly.

It's not a deus ex machina.

Please, not this yak of it not being a technically a deus ex machina in the classic sense. This isn't Gallifrey Base. It's a magic nonsense that solves the plot conveniently, and in an unsatisfying way. It's not good writing.

A Deus Ex takes a tragic ending and makes it a happy ending with a contrivance of some sort, like 10's extra hand taking the regen energy.
Having to choose between the life of a child or the world isn't a deus ex, it's a tragic choice.

That's not what a deus ex machina does, and in this case having the choice of saving the world so conveniently is the DEM. It's not a new tactic of having such a conclusion offset by some tragedy in an attempt to mainpulate the audience to pull out the crying towel. RTD did it to some degree in all his finales. Parting of the Ways had the time vortex magic followed by the regeneration, Doomsday was the worst offender with Chav Tyler ending up in Pete's World after the idiot vacuum, Last of the Time Lords had the Master dying and Tennant crying over him like a rubbish slash fiction, and Journey's End had Donna's memory wiping after blowing up the Daleks with the idiot console.

 

[Jax]

Bones doesn't like TW:COE am shocked because its not like hes clearly proved hes not got a single cell in his body that allows him pleasure. TW COE has got critical acclaim coming out of its ears from fans, former haters and people who actually get paid to create a coherent review of tv.

Its great his opinion doesn't change the fact.

Long Live RTD & TW if only to annoy Bones

 

[Neroon]

Bones doesn't like TW:COE am shocked because its not like hes clearly proved hes not got a single cell in his body that allows him pleasure. TW COE has got critical acclaim coming out of its ears from fans, former haters and people who actually get paid to create a coherent review of tv.

Its great his opinion doesn't change the fact.

Long Live RTD & TW if only to annoy Bones

Let's lose the over-personalization, here. You disagree with Bones? Fine. Both of you are welcome to express your opinions about the materials being discussed. Yet it helps nothing to get in each other's face about it.

 

[Starkers]

The big problem is that there was no serious resistance. Whoniverse Earth has several groups with big honkin' space guns that could have blasted the 456 to kingdom come, but there wasn't even an attempt made. Everyone just capitulated. Even UNIT.

Of course, if that happened you'd have a single episode in which UNIT uses radio triangulation to locate the 456's ship and blows them all up. UNIT has fought Daleks before. Compared to Daleks, the 456 are nothing.

But that wasn't the story, so every responsible agency in the world had to be rendered totally incompetent.

And really, there is no possible way that they could get every government in the world to go along with that insane plan. Some countries don't even have functional governments, others would insist on fighting even if it was suicidal.

Did the 456 even have a ship? Maybe they had 500 ships, maybe they were teleporting in from their home world. In order to fight them you have to know where they are.

I agree on the world governments though, I mean Somaia doesn't even have a government!

I still think RTD missed a trick, I was waiting for someone to say; you know 10% of the world's children are in Africa...

 

[Winterwind]

It's flawed sure, but I think even you will extend to admitting it's one of RTD's best efforts.

Yeah, certainly.

It's not a deus ex machina.

Please, not this yak of it not being a technically a deus ex machina in the classic sense. This isn't Gallifrey Base. It's a magic nonsense that solves the plot conveniently, and in an unsatisfying way. It's not good writing.

A Deus Ex takes a tragic ending and makes it a happy ending with a contrivance of some sort, like 10's extra hand taking the regen energy.
Having to choose between the life of a child or the world isn't a deus ex, it's a tragic choice.

That's not what a deus ex machina does, and in this case having the choice of saving the world so conveniently is the DEM. It's not a new tactic of having such a conclusion offset by some tragedy in an attempt to mainpulate the audience to pull out the crying towel. RTD did it to some degree in all his finales. Parting of the Ways had the time vortex magic followed by the regeneration, Doomsday was the worst offender with Chav Tyler ending up in Pete's World after the idiot vacuum, Last of the Time Lords had the Master dying and Tennant crying over him like a rubbish slash fiction, and Journey's End had Donna's memory wiping after blowing up the Daleks with the idiot console.

In the end, I think RTD's greatest contribution to Doctor Who (aside from getting it back on the air) will be the endless forum debates of whether or not his consistently weak resolutions are indeed DEM.

 

[The Borgified Corpse]

I agree on the world governments though, I mean Somaia doesn't even have a government!

And while Afghanistan technically has a government, they have practically no presence in the country outside of Kabul. This is why the Taliban is so popular over there, because the official government is so absent that it allows the Taliban to take over as a defacto government in certain regions because they're the only ones organized enough to provide vital services.

I still think RTD missed a trick, I was waiting for someone to say; you know 10% of the world's children are in Africa...

Ooooh! Dark! I'm surprised that they didn't at least have someone mention that. It's not too much more horrific than a lot of the other ideas they suggested. (Although, the 456 might not have been satisfied with that. Maybe they wanted different flavors?)

 

[Bones2]

It's flawed sure, but I think even you will extend to admitting it's one of RTD's best efforts.

Yeah, certainly.

Please, not this yak of it not being a technically a deus ex machina in the classic sense. This isn't Gallifrey Base. It's a magic nonsense that solves the plot conveniently, and in an unsatisfying way. It's not good writing.

A Deus Ex takes a tragic ending and makes it a happy ending with a contrivance of some sort, like 10's extra hand taking the regen energy.
Having to choose between the life of a child or the world isn't a deus ex, it's a tragic choice.

That's not what a deus ex machina does, and in this case having the choice of saving the world so conveniently is the DEM. It's not a new tactic of having such a conclusion offset by some tragedy in an attempt to mainpulate the audience to pull out the crying towel. RTD did it to some degree in all his finales. Parting of the Ways had the time vortex magic followed by the regeneration, Doomsday was the worst offender with Chav Tyler ending up in Pete's World after the idiot vacuum, Last of the Time Lords had the Master dying and Tennant crying over him like a rubbish slash fiction, and Journey's End had Donna's memory wiping after blowing up the Daleks with the idiot console.

In the end, I think RTD's greatest contribution to Doctor Who (aside from getting it back on the air) will be the endless forum debates of whether or not his consistently weak resolutions are indeed DEM.

Seems about right. And if that's the best he has to contribute, he really can't be that great.

No more responses from anyone as to the quality of CoE's resolution? Or did I win the argument

 

[Sci]

It's not a deus ex machina.

Please, not this yak of it not being a technically a deus ex machina in the classic sense.

It's not that it's not a deus ex machina in a technical or classical sense.

It's that it's not a deus ex machina in an actual sense.

It's a magic nonsense that solves the plot conveniently, and in an unsatisfying way.

No, it solved it wholly inconveniently, because it killed the protagonist's loved one.

You can argue all you want whether it was satisfying or well-executed, but it is inarguable that it was not a convenient resolution to the plot.

That means that it was not a deus ex machina. Deus ex machina is not a generic term for any dramatically unsatisfying climax.

Doomsday was the worst offender with Chav Tyler ending up in Pete's World after the idiot vacuum,

Again with the prejudiced, bigoted, classist slurs against working-class Britons.

ETA:

No more responses from anyone as to the quality of CoE's resolution? Or did I win the argument

This isn't sport. If no one thinks your arguments against the quality of the resolution were worth debating, that doesn't mean you win by default. It just means no one gives a shit.

 

[Sci]

The big problem is that there was no serious resistance. Whoniverse Earth has several groups with big honkin' space guns that could have blasted the 456 to kingdom come, but there wasn't even an attempt made. Everyone just capitulated. Even UNIT.

Because no one could find their ship or ships.

And, on top of that, the 4-5-6's weapon of choice was biological warfare, something to which Human society is even in reality notably vulnerable.

Of course, if that happened you'd have a single episode in which UNIT uses radio triangulation to locate the 456's ship and blows them all up.

They tried. Didn't work. The 4-5-6 apparently have technology able to thwart radio triangulation.

UNIT has fought Daleks before.

And lost.

In fact, in evaluating why U.N.I.T. and the other military forces of Earth didn't go up against the 4-5-6, we should probably bear in mind that the 4-5-6 Crisis happened only a few months after the Dalek Invasion. Y'know, the Dalek Invasion that specifically targeted most of Earth's military forces for extermination; more than likely, everyone's military was in shambles during the 4-5-6 Crisis. We know the Valiant was destroyed -- I'd be willing to bet that the Daleks specifically targeted U.N.I.T. forces throughout the globe, the major American and allied bases, major aircraft carriers, and nuclear launch sites.

Compared to Daleks, the 456 are nothing.

And you know that how? It's entirely possible that the 4-5-6 have technology rivaling the Daleks.

But that wasn't the story, so every responsible agency in the world had to be rendered totally incompetent.

Because Torchwood is trying to be more adult and realistic about it. And realistically? Every single agency in the world would be rendered utterly impotent if faced with the possibility of advanced alien technology like that.

And really, there is no possible way that they could get every government in the world to go along with that insane plan. Some countries don't even have functional governments, others would insist on fighting even if it was suicidal.

True, but Children of Earth was about Britain, and we never really heard about what happened in the rest of the world. Though I'd be willing to bet that any number of repressive regimes used it as an opportunity to get rid of ethnic or religious minorities, the same way the U.K. government used it as an opportunity to wage class warfare on the poor and working class.

 

[Bones2]

It's not a deus ex machina.

Please, not this yak of it not being a technically a deus ex machina in the classic sense.

It's not that it's not a deus ex machina in a technical or classical sense.

It's that it's not a deus ex machina in an actual sense.



No, it solved it wholly inconveniently, because it killed the protagonist's loved one.

You can argue all you want whether it was satisfying or well-executed, but it is inarguable that it was not a convenient resolution to the plot.

That means that it was not a deus ex machina. Deus ex machina is not a generic term for any dramatically unsatisfying climax.

Trusty Wikipedia defines deus ex machina as "a seemingly inextricable problem is suddenly and abruptly solved with the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new character, ability, or object". For almost the whole of CoE, the 456 is portrayed as a seemingly inextricable problem. It's either give up 10% of the kids or we all get it in the neck. Then, right near the end, the contrived bollocks of the magic signal crops up and solves the whole thing. That it makes Jack's grandson who we've never heard of before jerk about and die is neither here nor there.

It's a deus ex machina. But if you don't recognise that, at least you agree it was dramatically unsatisfying.

Doomsday was the worst offender with Chav Tyler ending up in Pete's World after the idiot vacuum,

Again with the prejudiced, bigoted, classist slurs against working-class Britons.

She's a chav. Anyone who's actually from Britain would tell you that. But then, that wasn't what I was getting at.

ETA:

No more responses from anyone as to the quality of CoE's resolution? Or did I win the argument

This isn't sport. If no one thinks your arguments against the quality of the resolution were worth debating, that doesn't mean you win by default. It just means no one gives a shit.

Thanks for rising to it all the same. Well, sort of. Watch your tone though.

More to the point, I asked why it was so great and gave my reasons as to why I thought it wasn't. No one's effectively countered them, so it is as simple as that in a sense. If people enjoy it, that's fine and good for them, but I maintain it's a flawed plot with a DEM ending, and no one's been able to prove otherwise. They point to other things they did like such as the cabinet discussions or the dark tone, or Frobisher. These things are good and easily elevate it above previous Torchwood, but for me they don't make up for the poor plot and resolution.

 

[Sci]

Trusty Wikipedia defines deus ex machina as "a seemingly inextricable problem is suddenly and abruptly solved with the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new character, ability, or object".

And there was no sudden or unexpected intervention in the form of some new character, ability, or object. Throughout the miniseries, the fact that the children formed a link to the 4-5-6 was established, as was the fact that the British government had been studying it. It was established earlier in the miniseries that the mental link could be used to kill a man; that such a "killing signal" could be used against the 4-5-6 is a perfectly logical extrapolation from that.

That's not deus ex machina. That's Chekov's Gun.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

No more responses from anyone as to the quality of CoE's resolution? Or did I win the argument

I think the fact that you're trying to "win" the argument instead of convince other people is a bit of a reason not to bother arguing. I think there was a decent amount of setup and pretty significant consequences. As far as solutions go, I found it pretty powerful and satisfying at the same time.

 

[Hoser]

That's not deus ex machina. That's Chekov's Gun.

Exactly.