A Niner Watches Babylon 5 (NO spoilers, please)

[Ensign_Redshirt]

Well, the original broadcast order of Crusade is a mess. In some cases, event "b" literally happens before event "a"... and this hasn't anything to do with time travel. And no matter how you are re-arranging the episodes, it seems that at least one continuity error always remains (or you are creating new ones through the re-arrangement).

It's best to go this way though:
1) "War Zone" (black uniform episode)
2) "Appearances and Other Deceits" (switch from black to grey uniforms)
3) All grey uniform episodes in original broadcast order, starting with "Racing the Night".
4) All remaining black uniform episodes in broadcast oder.

Some fans also prefer to move the black uniform episode "Ruling from the Tomb" between "War Zone" and "Appearances and Other Deceits", because Capt. Gideon is first introduced to a certain character which he definitely knows in the Grey uniform episodes.


So, the most logical and consistent viewing order is probably this one (in brackets the episode number according to the original broadcast order):

Black uniforms
1) War Zone (1)
2) Ruling from the Tomb (6)
3) Appearances and Other Deceits (8)

Grey uniforms
4) Racing the Night (9)
5) The Memory of War (10)
6) The Needs of Earth (11)
7) Visitors from Down the Street (12)
8) Each Night I Dream of Home (13)

Black uniforms
9) The Long Road (2)
10) The Well of Forever (3)
11) The Path of Sorrows (4)
12) Patterns of the Soul (5)
13) The Rules of the Game (7)

 

[Ayelbourne]

P.S. As you may or may not have noticed, the reason why Marcus never showed up for Lennier during the Day of the Dead is also hinted at during the end credits.

Aaawwww, thats so sweet.
Guess she really does wanna bang him now.

 

[Reverend]

^She actually spends a fair chunk of the rest of her life as Anla'shok Na chatting to his corpsicle in Yedor.

What's the plan from here? I already have the remaining six movies and Crusade sitting underneath my TV so I'll be watching them over the next few weeks. My plan is to watch Crusade in DVD-order, but if you guys know of a better order then I'll watch it that way. But right now I'm off to take a shower because being a season 5 fan makes me feel all dirty...

As you can see above, opinion on the "proper" order of Crusade episodes is divided. Whatever you go with though, I will say that it dose make a difference to your impression of the show.
When I first bought the set I, like yourself didn't think it would make any odds and just watched it through in DVD order. A while later however, I did try one of the other orders out of curiosity (I think it was the JMS one, sans 'War Zone') and I was surprised at what a positive difference it made. It's by no means totally coherent (it can't be) but pacing and character development it much smoother.

I do tend to agree that 'Racing the Night' is best watched first, though I wouldn't say you should give 'War Zone' a miss altogether. You have it, so you may as well watch it, but just leave it to last. It's not terrable, but it does have TNT's grubby, interfering little fingerprints all over it.

Doesn't really matter which order you watch the movies in, they're not inter-related and they take place all over the timeline. It's just 'A Call to Arms' that serves as a torch pass from B5 to Crusade.

 

[Booji]

Go with the chronoligical order for Crusade (you can find that on wiki). JMS' order doesn't work at all and you'll be stratching your head. the only glitch with the chronological order are the costume changes, but who cares about something that minor. the JMS order is crap.

 

[Fist McStrongpunch]

This is my preferred order. You have to assume they went back to the old uniforms between two episodes, but besides that the only continuity gaffes are the calendar dates given in the eps, utterly unimportant imho.

The Memory Of War
The Needs Of Earth
Visitors From Down The Street
Each Night I Dream Of Home
The Long Road
The Well Of Forever
The Path Of Sorrows
Patterns Of The Soul
The Rules Of The Game
Voices In The Dark

 

[Neroon]

When my dad died, Mom mentioned how they liked to sit on their back deck and watch the sun set together, and how she'll miss it. I'd never known they did that. I think of that now whenever I see Delenn watching the sunrise alone at the end of SiL.

I promise you that I do have a life. However, as I have all too often told, the morning after I saw "Sleeping in Light", I woke up extra early for no apparent reason. No alarm clock. No preconceived ideas. Just early. And before dawn. So what did I do? Fixed a hot cup of tea, then went out on the deck to watch the sun rise.

 

[chrisspringob]

This is my preferred order. You have to assume they went back to the old uniforms between two episodes, but besides that the only continuity gaffes are the calendar dates given in the eps, utterly unimportant imho.

The Memory Of War
The Needs Of Earth
Visitors From Down The Street
Each Night I Dream Of Home
The Long Road
The Well Of Forever
The Path Of Sorrows
Patterns Of The Soul
The Rules Of The Game
Voices In The Dark

You skipped a few episodes there.

I like Ensign Redshirt's order.

 

[Jan]

This is my preferred order. You have to assume they went back to the old uniforms between two episodes, but besides that the only continuity gaffes are the calendar dates given in the eps, utterly unimportant imho.

The Memory Of War
The Needs Of Earth
Visitors From Down The Street
Each Night I Dream Of Home
The Long Road
The Well Of Forever
The Path Of Sorrows
Patterns Of The Soul
The Rules Of The Game
Voices In The Dark

You skipped a few episodes there.

I like Ensign Redshirt's order.

And "Voices in the Dark" is Lost Tales, not Crusade.

Jan

 

[Lindley]

So, the most logical and consistent viewing order is probably this one (in brackets the episode number according to the original broadcast order):

Black uniforms
1) War Zone (1)
2) Ruling from the Tomb (6)
3) Appearances and Other Deceits (8)

Grey uniforms
4) Racing the Night (9)
5) The Memory of War (10)
6) The Needs of Earth (11)
7) Visitors from Down the Street (12)
8) Each Night I Dream of Home (13)

Black uniforms
9) The Long Road (2)
10) The Well of Forever (3)
11) The Path of Sorrows (4)
12) Patterns of the Soul (5)
13) The Rules of the Game (7)

I'll add a vote for this order. It keeps the character development reasonably consistent, avoids using stuff before it's discovered, and is reasonably uniform-consistent (although you need to mentally splice in the unfilmed scene when Gideon mentions the "laundry accident" which forces everyone back to the old uniforms).

Of course, it goes without saying that A Call to Arms needs to be watched first. And actually, the Crusade credits include a clip from The River of Souls, so it's reasonable to watch that first too (and prior to ACTA).

 

[Stevil2001]

^ I think this is roughly the order I watched them in. I liked it well enough. (I mean, as much as you can like anything to do with watching Crusade.)

 

[JoeD80]

The average score for the season was 6.545, those of you that are paying attention will have noticed that I actually scored this above season 3 (6.5), but only by 1 point. Yes, it appears that I prefer season 5 to season 3, which makes me a bizarre freak of nature.

I think 5 and 3 are pretty well matched. On the P5 poll that was run during the original airing, season 5 came just under 3. I think some people dismiss season 5 because the Shadows are already gone, but the show is about much more than that. Also I have seen people say that 5 wasn't part of Joe's plan, but it was; he just unfortunately had his detailed notes about it thrown out by the cleaning staff at a convention between seasons 4 and 5 and had to recall things that he had written down years earlier, which I think might have been mentioned upthread.

The second arc about Londo and the Centauri was one of the best parts of the series. I knew it was heading to a tragic end because of War Without End, but there was always a glimmer of hope that Londo would find a way to change the future we saw and that he would be allowed to continue his growth.

As Joe pointed out in the script books and on the DVD commentary, The Fall of Centauri Prime is where the five-year arc was heading to. To create a sense of dread that couldn't be created in a single episode, and make you feel the pain of Centauri Prime being crushed. Interestingly, I was watching Signs and Portents from season one just yesterday and listened a little closer to G'Kar's answer to Morden of what he wants: "To tear down [the Centauri's] cities, blacken their sky, sow their ground with salt. To completely, utterly erase them." He did get a little of his wish there; even though he evolved beyond the hatred himself, the Narn ended up decimating Centauri Prime with a little Drazi help, also fulfilling G'Kar's prediction from the first episode, "one day our teeth will be at your throat."

It may even give me an improved impression of season 1 if I watch the show again, one of my biggest complaints back then was Londo's characterisations. I may have to do this thread again some day.

Babylon 5 benefits from a re-watch. There are a lot of clues linked together in those early episodes that can be easily looked over on a first watch of the show.

What's the plan from here? I already have the remaining six movies and Crusade sitting underneath my TV so I'll be watching them over the next few weeks. My plan is to watch Crusade in DVD-order, but if you guys know of a better order then I'll watch it that way.

Looks like you already have several suggestions for Crusade. My only suggestion is to watch "In the Beginning" next and to make sure you watch "A Call to Arms" before Crusade.

But right now I'm off to take a shower because being a season 5 fan makes me feel all dirty...

Welcome to the season 5 fan club. It's a strange bunch in here. I hear that one over there likes to watch Farscape as well. Strange.

 

[Reverend]

Babylon 5 benefits from a re-watch. There are a lot of clues linked together in those early episodes that can be easily looked over on a first watch of the show.

For me this has to be one of the main appeals of B5. Since the broad strokes of the plot were figured out from the get-go, it's not until the second run through that you see all these little hints, and aspects that seemed innocuous and entierly forgettable the first time round, but so someone on the second go-round may as well be in flashing neon.

I suppose the impact would be somewhat lessened by seeing the show in the space of a few months on DVD, but for those of us that watch the show over the course of years, seeing it all again was a very rewarding experience. Either way, finding those little hints is half the fun of the show, so I won't spoil it by pointing them out.

Count me among the fans of season 5 too. It gets pretty heavily derided by what I hope is just a vocal minority which I feel is undeserved. Joe always said the show would be 5 seasons and would be structured like a novel; introduction, rising action, conflict, complication, climax and denouement. Season 5 is essentially one long denouement that shows the consequences of the previous story. There's no "happily ever after" or "the hero rides off into the sunset" (though he sort of dose, but never mind that) it's about what happens after you change the world.

As evidenced by the last bit of 'Sleeping in Light' the whole show is actually an historical documentary produced by ISN about those crucial five years and just like in real history, there is not "The End" just a continuation of events in a (probably) never ending cycle of cause and effect. As 2278 Delenn said in WWE: "The war is never completely won. There are always new battles to be fought against the darkness. Only the names change."

 

[Hyperspace05]

The second arc about Londo and the Centauri was one of the best parts of the series. I knew it was heading to a tragic end because of War Without End, but there was always a glimmer of hope that Londo would find a way to change the future we saw and that he would be allowed to continue his growth.

As Joe pointed out in the script books and on the DVD commentary, The Fall of Centauri Prime is where the five-year arc was heading to. To create a sense of dread that couldn't be created in a single episode, and make you feel the pain of Centauri Prime being crushed. Interestingly, I was watching Signs and Portents from season one just yesterday and listened a little closer to G'Kar's answer to Morden of what he wants: "To tear down [the Centauri's] cities, blacken their sky, sow their ground with salt. To completely, utterly erase them." He did get a little of his wish there; even though he evolved beyond the hatred himself, the Narn ended up decimating Centauri Prime with a little Drazi help, also fulfilling G'Kar's prediction from the first episode, "one day our teeth will be at your throat."

Yes, there really is a *TON* of foreshadowing in the S1 - Even from the very first epsode ("Midnight on the Firing Lane"):
- Londo reveals his dream about G'Kar killing him
- G'Kars statement to Londo: "The wheel of fate turns, does it not!" - The irony is that it was spoken from a Narn high point, which would be followed by them being conquered by the Centauri, and finally being able to return the favor somewhat in season 5. The wheel of fate goes on and on as civilizations rise and fall...

 

[Kegg]

I guess I can stop saying Babylon 5 is the story of Londo Mollari now.

What's the plan from here? I already have the remaining six movies and Crusade sitting underneath my TV so I'll be watching them over the next few weeks. My plan is to watch Crusade in DVD-order, but if you guys know of a better order then I'll watch it that way.

I'd vote for DVD order. It's true the series doesn't really make complete coherence no matter what way you cut it, but at least DVD order keeps the order coherent enough and begins with the show's second pilot (which with its painful exposition stick is clearly a pilot, while the show's original, better pilot was made as an in medias res story and thus still works later in the show's run...)

The plus about DVD order is not having to think about these things, also.

Welcome to the season 5 fan club. It's a strange bunch in here. I hear that one over there likes to watch Farscape as well. Strange.

Well, it's only one of the greatest space opera TV shows ever, who could blame them?

As far as season 5 goes, I do think it has a hodepodge mix of highs and lows. It's not quite as excreable as the first season can be, and it's got some legitimate highs, so all is good.

 

[Pilot Ace]

Ahhhh, finally caught up with the thread after a week or two away. It's always nice to hear first reactions to the story of Babylon 5.

 

[TheGodBen]

In the Beginning (****)

War! (Huh. Yeah.) What is it good for? Entertaining children.

In the future, hours before he dies at G'Kar's hands, Londo decides to tell a story to some children even though he wasn't present for most of the events. It may be a bit of a stretch, but who cares? We get to see old Londo again, we get to see the Earth-Minbari War, it's win-win. Deciding to show more of the Earth-Minbari War was an excellent idea, it was mentioned ever since the beginning of the show but it was often hard for me to get my head around. How was Earth one of the five most powerful races without having met the Minbari before? How long did the war last? How many died? While there has been at least three flashbacks to the war, it never managed to come together until seeing this movie. To be honest, the show makes a lot more sense now, the actions of groups like Home Guard, and even President Clark, make more sense when you see the extent of the war and how close Earth came to annihilation. This is a much better pilot for the series than The Gathering, and I'd go so far as to say that the spoilers might be worth the improved impression it brings.

The biggest problem with the movie are those moments where you have to accept some ropey continuity. The most obvious example is Sheridan, Franklin and G'Kar taking a holiday together on that ice planet and seemingly forgetting about it when they meet again a decade later. That plot-point was needed in the movie to explain Londo's connection to the war, but Sheridan and Franklin didn't need to go along, it could have been G'Kar and the General guy. That would have made more sense in terms of continuity.

In a way, this movie reminds me of BSG's The Plan because it takes place over an extended period, shows events that were referred to in the past, includes clips from previous episodes and tries to fill in a couple of holes in the overall story. But where The Plan had trouble was in telling a cohesive story, at points it really does feel like a clip-show of the first two seasons. In the Beginning fares much better and it does feel like a story in its own right. It has some problems in places, but overall I was satisfied.

Air Date Ep# Prod# Title
01/04/09 9 103 Racing the Night
01/04/10 11 101 The Needs of Earth
01/04/11 10 102 The Memory of War
01/04/12 2 107 The Long Road
01/04/16 12 104 Visitors from Down the Street
01/04/17 3 106 The Well of Forever
01/04/18 13 105 Each Night I Dream of Home
01/04/19 5 110 Patterns of the Soul
01/04/23 4 109 The Path of Sorrows
01/04/24 6 111 Ruling from the Tomb
01/04/25 7 112 The Rules of the Game
01/04/26 1 108 War Zone
01/04/30 8 113 Appearances and Other Deceits

Black uniforms
1) War Zone (1)
2) Ruling from the Tomb (6)
3) Appearances and Other Deceits (8)

Grey uniforms
4) Racing the Night (9)
5) The Memory of War (10)
6) The Needs of Earth (11)
7) Visitors from Down the Street (12)
8) Each Night I Dream of Home (13)

Black uniforms
9) The Long Road (2)
10) The Well of Forever (3)
11) The Path of Sorrows (4)
12) Patterns of the Soul (5)
13) The Rules of the Game (7)

Go with the chronoligical order for Crusade (you can find that on wiki). JMS' order doesn't work at all and you'll be stratching your head. the only glitch with the chronological order are the costume changes, but who cares about something that minor. the JMS order is crap.

The Memory Of War
The Needs Of Earth
Visitors From Down The Street
Each Night I Dream Of Home
The Long Road
The Well Of Forever
The Path Of Sorrows
Patterns Of The Soul
The Rules Of The Game
Voices In The Dark

How can watching a TV show be this complicated?

Right now I'm leaning towards Ensign_Redshirt's list because a number of people voted for that one, is there any reason why I shouldn't watch it in that order other than the uniform changes?

 

[Harvey]

As long as you start with "Call to Arms," which is a prologue to Crusade, and then move on to "War Zone," which quality aside can't come anywhere other than first in the order, I think you'll be fine.

There's a minor issue when it comes to Lochley, but I think (if memory serves) Ensign_Redshirt has Lochley's episodes in the right sequence to eliminate this problem.

I'm curious to see how you rate the rest of the telemovies, especially "River of Souls," which I thoroughly hate.

 

[Hound of UIster]

How can watching a TV show be this complicated?

Ted Turner.

 

[David cgc]

How can watching a TV show be this complicated?

Ted Turner.

Actually, as I understand it, Ted Turner was a big part of TNT picking up Babylon 5 in the first place. The trouble was, the Babylon 5 / Crusade production was moved under the auspices of another branch of the network after Season 5, who didn't want to deal with Sci-Fi nonsense.

 

[Lindley]

The most obvious example is Sheridan, Franklin and G'Kar taking a holiday together on that ice planet and seemingly forgetting about it when they meet again a decade later.

Technically, we never saw the first meetings between any of these 3, and no spoken dialog precludes a previous acquaintance.

It is a bit out of left field though.