Cardassians/ Damar and everyone around him

[TerokNor]

Very true! Do you know H. Gardner?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_multiple_intelligences

I still wonder about the attitute as a youth however. In the episodes he most of the time speaks rough. I don´t think he ever apolozises for something (like smashing up Quarks), he does not uses words like "thank you" or "please" or anything polite. Well ok, as a rebell he gets a bit more friendly...and he has that charming moment with Mila, where he is nice and quite gentle. But before that, he always sounds rough. Hmm, even maybe on the Groumall... but we don´t see a lot there of him, but what we see, seems not to be as aggressive and hard as later on.

TerokNor

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Yes, I am familiar with Gardner.

One thing we didn't get to see as much of was Damar relating to other full-blooded Cardassians. It may be he thought that aliens, and those who had alien blood, did not deserve politeness--until he rebelled.

 

[TerokNor]

Yeah, the only Cardassian we see him interacting with, before he rebelled is Dukat...and Dukats his superiour... but he was not really polite with him, he was obidient and sometimes blunt.
And otherwise we see him always alone, like at Quarks, hes never there in a group and has fun...only alone and drinking.
After he rebelled we see him with Garak and Rusot.
Oh and we see him with two Cardassian ladies, but can´t remember if he was polite or not in the one scene, where Weyoun throws her out....and the other scenes was too short.
However I would say as an youth/adult he would have been more the rough and blunt one also with other Cardassian, besides maybe cardassian females, that he liked. What do you think?

TerokNor

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Possibly so--though again, mouthing off to an elder or a superior would be the kind of move that could get one killed, as would be blurting any kind of data that might count as a state secret.

Being an ass to his underlings, though...I imagine he was.

 

[TerokNor]

If Damar would have made it into the Command center and met Weyoun their again...how would Weyoun have reacted? How would Damar? Would Damar have killed him or would that had still been Garaks task? Would Damar have been happy with Garak for doing that or angry, cause he wanted to do it and wasnt as fast as him? Or would he not wanted Weyoun to die but to see the founder surrender and to loose the war, while he would have seen him, Damar, as a surviver and on the winning side (even of course Cardassia lost a lot)?

TerokNor

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Hm...I think by that point Damar might've matured enough that whoever killed Weyoun, he would accept the fact that it was done. He never seemed to have the severe enmity for Garak that Dukat did.

 

[TerokNor]

And what would there first reaction be? Self satisfied smiling for Damar, sappy, false smiling for Weyoun, growling on both sides? What words would they might have spoken? Quite similar to the dialoge between garak and Weyoun, totally different?
I mean it would have been the first time Damar sees Weyoun again after he/ the Dominion killed his family.

I always found Damar being quite neutral towards Garak. And even they are very differently I think with some more time they might have bonded quite well friendshiplike. What do you think?

TerokNor

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Not sure...I think Garak would hold Damar in contempt because Garak has all the subtlety Damar doesn't have, and when even Bashir fails to measure up in that regard, you can see how contemptuous Garak is about that.

 

[TerokNor]

? Could you reword what you wrote please?


What about Damars death? I mean I personally, like I said before, did not like it, that the authors decided to let him die at all, but if they had to let him die...wouldn´t there have been a different way to have that done, that would do him some fairness?
I hate it, that they let him die without him knowing how his efforts turned out...and so fast...and with a bit his own fault, because he ran so reclessly inside and even the others looked somewhat surprized and followed a stunned second later.
So maybe he could have been hurt, but no died right away. So when the Founder surrendered, they could have let him, unconscious and badly hurt beamed up to the Defiant, where he wakes again. Bashier could tell him tha the wars over, that cardassia will be free again and he smiles. Then he could have said something like he should tell Kira and garank, that he is sory that he killed Ziyal, that he would undo it if he could...and than he dies. Would that be to sappy? Well and the others could mourn at least a bit... and take it a bit more heavy that the leader of cardassia, I mean garak DID have hopes in him and even Sisko...and in the end Kira I think as well, had died.
What do you people think?
What other possible scene comes to your head?

TerokNor

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Actually--Damar's scene looks like what REALLY happens in war. It doesn't tie everything up in a perfect little dramatically-correct package. That's why, whether you like it or not, it's believable.

 

[Gul Re'jal]

I was thinking... It was mentioned on several occasions that Damar would feel guilty because of Ziyal, that he should/could appologise for killing her, but I wonder... Would he? After all from his point of view he did not murder an innocent woman, but a traitor. He had punished her for her crime against the Union. That's how Garak saw it (A Stitch in Time novel) and I think it's quite correct opinion, since Damar was a "by the book" soldier.

Would becoming a rebel change his perception? Or would he still think she was a traitor. After all she not only betrayed the Cardassian Union (AND the Dominion, as they stood together), but also Dukat.

 

[Trek_princess]

Hello


Oh and what age would you give Dukat, Damar, Garak and Kira, lets say to the time Dukat gets demoted to the Groumall?

Alright guess these are enough questions for the beginning.
Feel welcome to give input.

TerokNor

My guesses: Dukat 55, Damar 34, Garak 49, and Kira 32.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

I was thinking... It was mentioned on several occasions that Damar would feel guilty because of Ziyal, that he should/could appologise for killing her, but I wonder... Would he? After all from his point of view he did not murder an innocent woman, but a traitor. He had punished her for her crime against the Union. That's how Garak saw it (A Stitch in Time novel) and I think it's quite correct opinion, since Damar was a "by the book" soldier.

Would becoming a rebel change his perception? Or would he still think she was a traitor. After all she not only betrayed the Cardassian Union (AND the Dominion, as they stood together), but also Dukat.

I would think that he would have to face the cognitive dissonance, yes--he thought he had killed a traitor who went against the Dominion/Union. Now he is seeing that the Union betrayed Cardassia rather than the other way around, and he is following in Ziyal's footsteps. So yes, I think there would be a sense of hypocrisy.

Had Damar lived, he would eventually have had to face the truth that Dukat was the real traitor.

 

[TerokNor]

I agree, that he would have seen it as murderin a girl and not executing a traitor, after he rebelled (maybe all ready before). If he had apolozised..hmm...maybe, but its rather hard to apolozise for murder..( I guess...). Still I would have liked such a scene.

Facing the truth that Dukat was the real traitor? Now, that would have been even harder... not sure, if he would had come to that point. I think he might would have kept the "soft spot" for Dukat in a way...maybe excusing him with his insanity. What do you think?

TerokNor

 

[TerokNor]

Hello


Oh and what age would you give Dukat, Damar, Garak and Kira, lets say to the time Dukat gets demoted to the Groumall?

Alright guess these are enough questions for the beginning.
Feel welcome to give input.

TerokNor

My guesses: Dukat 55, Damar 34, Garak 49, and Kira 32.

Thanks for your guesses, trek princess.

TerokNor

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

The trouble with that is that when Dukat first sold out the Cardassian Union, he wasn't insane the way he was later on.

I think that in the end, he would have to see Dukat as a traitor, but instead of hating him, perhaps mourn the lost potential in him.

As for penance for what he did to Ziyal--I think the Cardassian mindset would eventually demand that he atone in some form or fashion. In the canon universe, I wonder if in his last moments he felt that giving his life was the proper thing to do not just because of the battle they were fighting, but also in payment for what he did to Ziyal? In an AU where he survived, I imagine it would be more difficult for him to ever find a way that he could atone, and he would be very awkward at it and possibly make things worse until whoever he was speaking to (Kira?) realized he was sincere and just had no clue whatosever what to do.

 

[TerokNor]

Yes, maybe so...I mean he ran, throwing caution in the wind, inside there well before the others reacted... which got him killed. Maybe that was his way, not only to fight for Cardassia, but also for making good on Ziyal again.

Awkward and make things worse? Like...how? Could you write that out how you think it would be?

TerokNor

P.S. How do you like the "Damar-songs" I found? Do they fit? How did you like the song I found for you? Did it fit? If not, I´ll delete it of course. (Just curious.)

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

I thought the songs were nice, musically--I think that something got lost in the translation of the lyrics, though, and that I don't understand them the same way you do, which is a shame. I had 2 years of German so I could hear a little bit, but it was a long time ago and I knew I was missing out on a lot.

As to Damar trying to atone if he had survived...I can imagine him trying to say something to Kira, and saying it very badly and in a way that she would find offensive. I think Kira would only figure it out if she came up on Damar in a situation where he didn't think he was being watched, and he was trying to control his upset without getting drunk. (And for someone recovering from an addiction, that can be very hard, so his behavior might end up being rather obvious for what it is.)

 

[TerokNor]

Yeah, most lyriks pittifully lose something when they get translated, even when its done professional, but even more so, when its amateur translating.

Yes, he probably would say things really roughly...though even he has changed a lot, I think he still would not be the most sensitive talker.

Like with what kind of behaviour would a recovering addict controll his upset without falling back into the addiction? Do you have examples?

TerokNor

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Yeah, I don't think Damar would know how to phrase anything diplomatically, and would have no idea how to get himself out of the situation once he'd offended Kira (again). In the end, I think it would require Kira to realize what he'd meant to say rather than going by what he ACTUALLY said. Knowing her, that would take a long time (though MAYBE what happened when Tekeny Ghemor was dying might make her a little more likely to think instead of react--or at least to come to her senses sooner?).

I'm not entirely sure what Damar might do--I think it differs with each recovering addict.