Cardassians/ Damar and everyone around him

[DevilEyes]

Seems like humans are quite short living creature in comparison with Vulcans, Klingons (if they don't die in battle that is ), Romulans, and now Cardassians...

If you take books under consideration, Dukat was waaaaay older that 55.

Or not... McCoy lived at least to the age of 147 (though he looked very old). Kevin Uxbridge (yes, he wasn't really Human, but he was pretending to be) and his wife (who was Human) were supposed to be 85, even though the actors were around 60. I also believe that the date of Picard's birth given in an episode, I think it's "Conundrum", makes him well over 60 in TNG, even though Stewart was in his late 40s when the show started. And, if we go by the books,

Spoiler: Day of the Vipers

Nechayev must be at least 70 years old on TNG/DS9.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

:whispers: In the case of the Cardassians, evidence in the show makes it seems as though their lives might well be longer than those of humans.

Not that longer... maybe even not any longer than 23rd/24th century Humans, who seem to also have longer lifespans and somewhat slower aging than real life humans of our time. (Although, come to think of it, Day of the Vipers also makes a certain Human character much older than we could have ever thought.) There's a lot of inconsistency between DS9 books regarding relative Cardassian ages - while they're mostly consistent with each other in other aspects, there's no way to reconcile Terok Nor with A Stitch in Time and The Never-Ending Sacrifice when it comes to the ages of canon Cardassian characters..

I put the Cardassian lifespan at an average of 175, with the average lifespan ranging between about 150-200 years...not as long-lived as a Vulcan or a Klingon, but definitely noticeable in comparison to humans. (Incidentally, I put McCoy as an anomaly and the average human lifespan is somewhere between 100-125.)

The only piece that doesn't fit is Tekeny Ghemor, but he can be explained by a combination of having what I believe to be a severe autoimmune disorder (Yarim Fel Syndrome--and that's a whole other topic as to why I classify it that way), and the deleterious effect grief would've had on his health, on top of that.

Seems like humans are quite short living creature in comparison with Vulcans, Klingons (if they don't die in battle that is ), Romulans, and now Cardassians...

If you take books under consideration, Dukat was waaaaay older that 55.

I put Dukat at 70 in 2375, personally.

And yes, I do see humans as short-lived in comparison to a lot of other species in the Trekiverse, and I think it may explain some aspects of human mindset and conduct compared to other species. In particular I tend to get the sense that in ENT, it may really be hitting Archer just how little time he has compared to a Vulcan or a Klingon--yet another reason for him to be so impulsive, to want to do everything NOW.

 

[Gul Re'jal]

I also see McCoy as a exception rather than a rule. I can see humans reaching 100 and a little bit beyond - after all our lifespan extends thanks to better medical care and living conditions - but can bodies stand such a long life biologically?

 

[DevilEyes]

We know that the Vulcans live longer than Humans. But there is no canon evidence that Cardassians are any longer lived than Humans. Even Dukat in WDTDON (where the writers pushed Kira's age downwards and Dukat's age upwards to make the plot possible) doesn't have to be any older than 65 in the present. And that's not so different from Picard being in his 60s in early TNG, or the Uxbridges being 85 - looking 10 to 20 years younger than the age of the actors.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Putting Dukat at 70 in 2375 wouldn't make him anywhere near 65 in the flashback scenes. But that's totally my own reckoning.

 

[TerokNor]

In the Prophecy and chance book (didn´t buy it that long ago, you can get it as second hand on amazon) I enjoyed "Face Value" most.

And I still wonder how a meeting between Dukat and Damar would be, if they lived after the war. Though no one wanted to continue my little try on that.

I also think Damar would feel somewhat guilty for all the people who died in the war, however with Ziyal, that would be "special"..he killed her in a more "personal" way.....face to face so to say and with his own hands as he pulled he trigger... and she was not an enemy like the Jem Hadar, I think on the Groumall he actually liked her (which changed, when she stopped being loyal and obidient to her father...but they were friends ones) also what would douple the guilt might also be Dukats insanity. I am sure, Damar never wanted something bad for Dukat to happen, he wanted to help him, as for him he just was that great man, who should be leading Cardassia. So, as Ziyals dead pushed him completly over the edge, he might feel somewhat responsible for that too.... maybe thats even one more reason why he stays loyal to him after all... well, and when they meet during the war he also still hopes, that Dukat might somehow turn back and saves Cardassia (and him).

TerokNor

 

[Gul Re'jal]

I didn't have any impression that Damar was friends with Ziyal on Groumall. He accepted her, yes, he coped with her neutrally, but friends? No.

And we can't be completely sure Ziyal was the only one he killed personally.

And I still wonder how a meeting between Dukat and Damar would be, if they lived after the war. Though no one wanted to continue my little try on that.

Maybe because no one is sure what would happen.

I think Dukat would support Damar's resistance and fight with the Dominion. I don't think Damar would completely condemn Dukat. As you once wrote, Damar had a soft spot for Dukat. Maybe it's a matter of Dukat being his mentor for many years and being unable to break from Cardassian "conditioning" of following strenght and power. I think Damar would try to find excuses for Dukat bringing the Dominion.

Prophecy and Change is on the my online bookstore wish list, so I will buy it next time I order books from them.

 

[TerokNor]

Al right..friend might be a bit to strong as a word (and I might be a bit influenced by fanfiction, that have they has friends, which I like), but it did not seem as if he hated her. Than again maybe he was only friendly to her, because she was Dukats daughter and he wanted to impress his superiour officer?

TerokNor

 

[Gul Re'jal]

I think at the beginning he didn't care much, he was rather indifferent. It changed later. Maybe Dukat told him Ziyal defied him, when he wanted her to go back to Cardassian with him (In Pugatory's Shadow) and Damar grew to dislike and later distrust her, as she was closer to Kira and DS9ers, than to his mentor.

 

[TerokNor]

I am sure that lots of the hate he has inside himself was or at least got fired on by Dukat talking about certain things...like Bajor.
He trusted him, so he probably believed most of what Dukat said and took it for the truth, without much questioning it (even later he starts questioning more, but the basics that Dukat laid in him during the Klingon days are strongly there and go in an extreme that even Dukat not wanted -- killing Ziyal out of loyalty to him).

TerokNor

P.S. How you like "BabyDamar" in the Art section? Am not a good drawer so he is not a particular beautiful baby.... but oh well... *L*

 

[Gul Re'jal]

I suppose knowing what happened between Return to Grace and Call to Arms is the key to understanding a lot about Damar and we have no knowledge of what happened to Damar, and between Damar and Dukat during that period.

Ah, I forgot: we know they fought Klingons together, which surely created a strong bond. A bond which was not broken by Dukat's insanity (BTW I think producers/writers ruined the character making him just another crazy evil guy ).

 

[TerokNor]

No we have not...BUT we can imagine it. I mean thats what the authors would have done also..imagining what happend. I can see it quite well with my inner eyes how the days on the Bird of Prey might have been and how the athmosphere there was.

And yes, I also did not like what they did with Dukat in the end, breaking down and having him somewhat unstable and such was ok..but the Pah Wraith.... oh well... didn´t like that story line, though I liked the last scene between him and Damar, however the scene would have been still better, if he had looked Cardassian and not Bajoran.

When does Damar say, what you have in your subscribtion? What episode is that?

TerokNor

 

[Gul Re'jal]

Yes, we can imagine That's what is happening in my head. I plan to "see" that part of the storyline in my next project, through eyes of one of Dukat's officers. Today, in a bus!, I thought of a technical way to tell my story, so I can finally start writing

My quote is from Statistical Propabilities. Damar and Weyoun secretly hide somewhere on DS9, waiting for Jack and co. Damar doesn't like the hiding part

 

[TerokNor]

Thats great! Please tell me when you are done, I certainly like to read it, when it has Damar in it. *g*

Ahh..thanks! I remember!

TerokNor

 

[Gul Re'jal]

I might post it when I finish each part, as it's going to be divided to parts, starting from DMZ and ending afther the end of Dominion War. Damar surely is going to be there, though maybe not at the beginning. But who knows, I might put him there. We don't know when he started serving under Dukat after all and I intend to ignore other Trek literature

Just have mercy of my awkward English I'm just a Cardassian, Federation Standard is a foreign language to me

 

[DevilEyes]

Putting Dukat at 70 in 2375 wouldn't make him anywhere near 65 in the flashback scenes. But that's totally my own reckoning.

I meant 65 in the present, so the flashback scenes could work... sorry, that's what happens when you post late at night.

Depending on how old he was in the flashbacks scenes (i.e. how old he needed to be when he reached that rank - he may be 65 to 70 in the present, maybe even just 60 if he managed to advance far at a very young age. That's still not very far from what we've seen with the Humans in Trek (the examples I mentioned). The books go further and make Dukat in the DS9 well over 80, since he had to be born in the 23rd century to be able to appear at the start of Day of the Vipers.

 

[TerokNor]

Looking forward to it.

Making another BabyDamar right now. Nearly finished.

TerokNor

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Putting Dukat at 70 in 2375 wouldn't make him anywhere near 65 in the flashback scenes. But that's totally my own reckoning.

I meant 65 in the present, so the flashback scenes could work... sorry, that's what happens when you post late at night.

Depending on how old he was in the flashbacks scenes (i.e. how old he needed to be when he reached that rank - he may be 65 to 70 in the present, maybe even just 60 if he managed to advance far at a very young age. That's still not very far from what we've seen with the Humans in Trek (the examples I mentioned). The books go further and make Dukat in the DS9 well over 80, since he had to be born in the 23rd century to be able to appear at the start of Day of the Vipers.

I thought having Dukat involved that early--at least at the rank he was--was kind of silly.

In my own continuity Dukat would've been 18 at the start of those books, and might have been able to participate in a much, MUCH more junior capacity than he did, but certainly not with high rank.

 

[TerokNor]

When reading the books (well actually I only fully read the first book...the other two only in parts) I just imagined it played not that long ago.
Wonder why authors write it that way...just because they need to have a character from the show inside? They could have taken...don´t know. Dukats father instead or so.

TerokNor

 

[Gul Re'jal]

The first one starts before the occupation, and the occupation took over 40 years, so it wasn't not long time ago, unless you're a timeless Changeling