A Niner Watches Babylon 5 (NO spoilers, please)

[OdoWanKenobi]

Thankfully, the latter half of the season really picks up.

After you do complete the series, I implore you to watch In The Beginning and A Call to Arms before starting Crusade. A Call to Arms acts as a pilot of sorts for Crusade, and In The Beginning is worth watching because it's great. I'm one of the few that actually thinks River of Souls is pretty good, though.

 

[Admiral Shran]

Admiral Shran:
Babylon 5 isn't the best thing to ever happen to TV perhaps, but it's a landmark space opera series with some epic storytelling and the like. I think it's still worth watching for those who consider themselves space opera fans (and if you don't, why would you post on these forums at all?).

It's definitely worth watching. I'm just saying that I don't find it as impressive as others do, that's all.

compared to the static landscape of Star Trek it's mesmerising

On shows like TOS and VOY, I'll agree with you. But with DS9, and to a lesser extent TNG and ENT, I'll humbly disagree.

I thought I had a reputation for score episodes poorly, it seems that I've lost it.

Oh, you still have that reputation, no worries there; just not with this show. For example, some of your ratings in ENT's fourth season were kind of merger in my opinion. I also don't think Precious Cargo was all that bad; I actually liked it. And there have been some episodes of B5 I liked better than you did.

I'm not sure that the episode elicits the same reaction from most people.

The only episode, from any TV show I've ever seen, that made me feel that way wasn't Spirit Folk; it was ENT: TATV. But then, I don't live in Ireland (I live in Ohio of all places), so I can see where your coming from. Of course, I'm also firmly in the camp that believes that Berman and Braga deserve to roast in Hell for the abomination that was TATV.

In the Kingdom of the Blind (***½)

It's odd, I know that I probably should hate Byron, he's the sort of guy that I want to hate, but for some reason I can't bring myself to hate him as others seem to do. That's not to say that I love him, I just don't hate him no matter how much I try. The only good reason I can think of to hate him is his hair, but I refuse to judge a man just because his hair is so much nicer than mine and he gets to sleep with the cute red-head.

The highlighted text is enough reason for me to hate his guts. I HATE Byron! And this from a guy whose not particularly interested in redheads, at least ones not named Lyta. I hope he and his hair die dirty, horrid deaths at the hands of Bester in Phoenix Rising.

Now come on Bester, don't let me down you wengeful, little Russian fascist. If you kill Byron and his disgusting hair, I promise you'll be my all-time favorite B5 character.

 

[Kegg]

On shows like TOS and VOY, I'll agree with you. But with DS9, and to a lesser extent TNG and ENT, I'll humbly disagree.

It's actually less static then DS9 or ENT, though. The narrative drive of the arcs from year to year are more clearly defined (particularly in ENT's case).

Now come on Bester, don't let me down you wengeful, little Russian fascist. If you kill Byron and his disgusting hair, I promise you'll be my all-time favorite B5 character.[/QUOTE]

The ironic thing about Babylon 5 is on one level it wants us to be sympathetic to the telepaths outside the system - Talia Winters, Lyta Alexander, Susan Ivanova, Byron.

But Bester is just way more fun and entertaining a character then any of those people I find myself more inclined to Psi Corps more often then not.

The line from Spirit Folk about the town where the potatoes blighted in 1846 makes me want to shove potatoes down Bryan Fuller's throat, throw his body onto a fire and take him out once the potatoes are baked so that I can have a blood-soaked potato feast.

*cough*

I'm not sure that the episode elicits the same reaction from most people.

I don't even remember that line. But then I haven't seen "Spirit Folk" since it first aired. I don't remember much now beyond really hating it and its preceding cutesy episode; not as much as "Up the Long Ladder" but close. There's a reason DS9 never did something like that and it's mostly because Colm Meaney wouldn't stand for that (Rumpelstiltskin was going to be a leprechaun, for example).

Day of the Dead (**½)

My problem with this episode is that confronted with the unknown, everyone says, 'ah, screw it, it's alright because it didn't hurt anybody.'

Something apparently transported a chunk of Babylon 5 into Brakiri space and made the people on that side all, well, see dead people. What scientist worth the title is going to write off investigating that just because it's relatively harmless? Aurora Borealis, eh, it doesn't have a perp sheet so it's fine...

Well, that and Rebo and Zooty and the whole thing not being fun at all. It really got me angry and depressed about the whole state of the show when I first watched it.

 

[hyzmarca]

The problem with Byron is that he argues that human telepaths are owed a planet because they saved all the other races during the SHadow War. Except that Lyta was the only human telepath that actually participated in the Shadow War, and she only did that because of her loyalty to Kosh. Byron and his followers did absolutely nothing.

So really, if anyone is owed a planet it's Lyta. Great, she can have one. There is a nice little out of the way place that's just perfect for their needs. It's called Za'Ha'Dum. She could do anything she wants with it, even blow it up if that's her fancy. She already did? Too bad, only one per customer.

In 'Day of the Dead', Lenier should have seen Marcus or Neroon. Seeing Morden made no sense at all. Londo acting drunk is the only reason I bother watching that episode.

I don't think that Marcus or Neroon would have been able to provide Lenier with any useful advice or insight. You don't see who you want to see, but who you need to see.

 

[Kegg]

^
I think Byron's point is more they were created and/or screwed around with the Vorlons (I forget how it goes; some species have natural telepaths, others get their telepaths from Kosh and pals, and I think humans were the latter) and the Vorlons owe them, but since the Vorlons have taken a one-way ticket to metaphor land, the beneficiaries of the Vorlons owe them.

Or maybe just long flowy wavy luxuriant blonde hair. I don't know.

 

[Reverend]

My problem with this episode is that confronted with the unknown, everyone says, 'ah, screw it, it's alright because it didn't hurt anybody.'

Something apparently transported a chunk of Babylon 5 into Brakiri space and made the people on that side all, well, see dead people. What scientist worth the title is going to write off investigating that just because it's relatively harmless? Aurora Borealis, eh, it doesn't have a perp sheet so it's fine...

Well, that and Rebo and Zooty and the whole thing not being fun at all. It really got me angry and depressed about the whole state of the show when I first watched it.

Well none of the main characters are scientists so it's not like they're qualified to investigate, or have the time for that matter. I'm sure IPX will want to send a bunch of scientists to investigate the scene but I doubt they'll find anything.
Which is rather the point; if there's nothing to find, what do you do? For years people knew B4 just disappeared. Zap-flash-poof. Gone. No trace, no debris, no clue and no forwarding address. It was a mystery and such things are mysteries because they defy understanding. You can theoise all you like but without full possession of the facts there's no way to know for sure.

Personally, my own pet theory is that it has something to do with that lone comet in the Brakiri system. Some ancient piece of First One tech that dose some funky jazz every time it's orbit comes close to Brakir.

I don't think that Marcus or Neroon would have been able to provide Lenier with any useful advice or insight. You don't see who you want to see, but who you need to see.

Plus, aside from being a fellow Minbari, Neroon had about as much to do with Lennier as Morden did. Less so when you consider Morden was, in a way, Lennier's opposite number.
As for Marcus there's a very good reason why he shouldn't have turned up that's glimpsed at right at the end of 'Sleeping in Light'...

Spoiler: Sleeping in Light

He's not exactly "dead" dead and won't be for some considerable time.

^
I think Byron's point is more they were created and/or screwed around with the Vorlons (I forget how it goes; some species have natural telepaths, others get their telepaths from Kosh and pals, and I think humans were the latter) and the Vorlons owe them, but since the Vorlons have taken a one-way ticket to metaphor land, the beneficiaries of the Vorlons owe them.

Or maybe just long flowy wavy luxuriant blonde hair. I don't know.

Actually all sentient telepaths are the result of genetic tampering of one sort or another (mostly Vorlon.) Telepaths can evolve naturally but the laws of natural selection precludes them from developing sentience the same way sentience precludes almost any further evolution without intervention. It's all spelled out pretty clearly in the short story 'The Nautilus Coil'.

 

[Kegg]

Which is rather the point; if there's nothing to find, what do you do? For years people knew B4 just disappeared.

That's different for two reasons:

1) It was years ago. We can assume there were lots of sci-fi doohickeys at the scene trying to pick up trace residue of 'what the hell just happened,' but that's wrapped up faced with a blank.

2) We don't have anyone sitting around whose religuous position is 'by the way, Babylon 4 is going to disappear now', and seem serenly content with the occurrence. The Brakiri actually know something about what the hell is going on and in getting their own chunk of Babylon 5 for the ceremony, directly made it happen to the station. Start cracking heads, get the Brakiri Ambassador talking as to what he knows, when he knows it, and I'll have a look at those mystical texts thank you very much. They may know nothing more then the religion end of it, but so what? The data given in the religious texts could be the key to cracking the mystery of who, what, or why this is going on.

Personally, my own pet theory is that it has something to do with that lone comet in the Brakiri system. Some ancient piece of First One tech that dose some funky jazz every time it's orbit comes close to Brakir.

I have my theories I'll keep mum on until the series concludes, since it's dependent on some stuff TheGodBen hasn't seen yet.

 

[Forbin]

Your first clue that DotD was written by Neil gaiman should have been the suicidal druggy waif that appeared to Lochley. Even if I hadn't seen his name in the titles, I'd have seen Zoe and said "This must be a Neil Gaiman story!"

I really enjoyed the episode, but who the hell is so completely mopey that they make their computer password "[loved one's name] is dead"?!

 

[Reverend]

The Brakiri actually know something about what the hell is going on and in getting their own chunk of Babylon 5 for the ceremony, directly made it happen to the station.

Do they though? They may know they every 200 years on the night the comet arrives that the dead return. That's like knowing that every day the sun rises in the east and sets in the west. It's not the same thing as understanding why it happens. I'm sure they have a whole bunch of religious explanations (most of their religions are based on mysticism after all) but I wouldn't count on any of those being terribly helpful.

I suppose what I'm getting at that while, yes there are going to be a lot of very clever people from several races looking into it but 1) They're not likely to find anything. And 2) It's irrelevant to the plot. It's a ghost story, not some episode of Star Trek that has to go into some long winded technobabble explanation involving holograms, transphasic metaparticles emanating from a subspace arse crack. Once morning comes, the story is over and that's all that matters.
It happened, it was real (how else would Kosh be sending messages?) and buggered if anyone can understand it.

Your first clue that DotD was written by Neil gaiman should have been the suicidal druggy waif that appeared to Lochley. Even if I hadn't seen his name in the titles, I'd have seen Zoe and said "This must be a Neil Gaiman story!"

I really enjoyed the episode, but who the hell is so completely mopey that they make their computer password "[loved one's name] is dead"?!

My take on that was that Lochley, on some level, feels responsible for what happened to Zoe and needs to keep reminding herself in this way. Another slant on it could be to remind herself that she's alive and Zoe's not and it could have easily have been the other way around so make sure she makes the most of what she has.

 

[Kegg]

Do they though? They may know they every 200 years on the night the comet arrives that the dead return. That's like knowing that every day the sun rises in the east and sets in the west.

Exactly. You may not know why or how or what, but you do know some things about observable patterns regarding the sun. And a few hundred or thousnd years of this festival is a lot of potential data to try and find some scientific aids, and after something THAT big happening (getting transported to another planet, talking to the dead) you'd bloody well want to try. And given an entire planet has been subjected to this, there will have been skeptics that tried to figure out what exactly was going on here. Maybe also foreign dignitaries. Either way, you have a baseline with a large pile of data and that is, at least, something.

And 2) It's irrelevant to the plot.

What's that got to do with anything? Did I say we needed a big episode delving into Brakiri mysteries? This is about how the characters should be reacting. The Brakiri were just directly responsible for widely reported visitations from ghosts and our intrepid heroes are insipidly incurious about it, content to shove it under the rug and never speak of it again.

Your first clue that DotD was written by Neil gaiman should have been the suicidal druggy waif that appeared to Lochley.

That was one of the weakest parts, is that really typical of Gaiman? Could someone clue me in why he's so beloved again?

 

[Reverend]

Exactly. You may not know why or how or what, but you do know some things about observable patterns regarding the sun. And a few hundred or thousnd years of this festival is a lot of potential data to try and find some scientific aids, and after something THAT big happening (getting transported to another planet, talking to the dead) you'd bloody well want to try. And given an entire planet has been subjected to this, there will have been skeptics that tried to figure out what exactly was going on here. Maybe also foreign dignitaries. Either way, you have a baseline with a large pile of data and that is, at least, something.

Maybe so, but I doubt the Brakiri are particularly interested in understanding and since it won't happen again for another 200 years it's going to be a bit of a wait to get any new information. Also it might be relevant that the last time this happened, the Brakiri were stellar pre-interstellar race. They may have told other races all about it but until now, nobody living had seen it, just a load of strange and interesting stories.
As for transporting a chunk of the station, again, give that this was the first time they did it off-world it's probably the first time it's happened like this too.

The idea of purchasing a place for a set period as part of a religious ceremony has it's basis in terrestrial religions. IIRC Gaiman said in some interview that he got the idea from a story he read or had heard about where some Jews had bought a chunk of London for a day so that it would be technically in Jerusalem for passover. (I could be totally misremembering this, mind!) Whatever it was, he thought it'd be interesting if something similar happened on B5 but turned out to be quite literal and not a metaphor at all.

What's that got to do with anything? Did I say we needed a big episode delving into Brakiri mysteries? This is about how the characters should be reacting. The Brakiri were just directly responsible for widely reported visitations from ghosts and our intrepid heroes are insipidly incurious about it, content to shove it under the rug and never speak of it again.

All we saw was the immediate aftermath and by Lochley's reaction it hasn't all sunk in. They do actually mention the "hight IQ boys" on Earth are knocking around some theories, Garibaldi is blaming telepaths and Sheridan is just downright curious as always. As for "never speaking of it again", when exactly in the following episodes would there have been an appropriate place to mention it and what exactly would be said? It's not like they ever mention "irdspacethay incidentway" either.

"Hey, you remember that thing with the Brakiri a few months back? Of course. Well we still have no idea what happened! Great...anything else? Yes, we still have no idea what happened to Valen. Excellent, update me every three days!"

I'm sure the place was buzzing for weeks afterwards but it has nothing to do with the plot of the next episodes and so it's not featured. Also keep in mind this isn't exactly the strangest thing to have happened on the station and people do eventually have to get on with their lives.

 

[Kegg]

Maybe so, but I doubt the Brakiri are particularly interested in understanding and since it won't happen again for another 200 years it's going to be a bit of a wait to get any new information.

You could get information from them now; and they presumably have writings if not other documents about previous occurrences. You could also check up what exactly happened on their home world, etc. etc.

IIRC Gaiman said in some interview that he got the idea from a story he read or had heard about where some Jews had bought a chunk of London for a day so that it would be technically in Jerusalem for passover. (I could be totally misremembering this, mind!)

Well let's run with that analogy either way. If during the festival, that chunk of London was physically transported to Jerusalem... people would notice. And maybe furrow their brows just a tad. They'd definitely not write it off just because it was a harmless bit of continential displacement.

They do actually mention the "hight IQ boys" on Earth are knocking around some theories,

Very weak ones as I recall. Something about electricity or gas or whatever. Half-assed 'scientists use big words to explain the impossible' isn't anything at all.

As for "never speaking of it again",

Well:

I'm sure the place was buzzing for weeks afterwards

It wasn't. That's what I was talking about.

 

[Reverend]

You could get information from them now; and they presumably have writings if not other documents about previous occurrences. You could also check up what exactly happened on their home world, etc. etc.

As I've repeatedly said, all of that probably did happen, it's just not discussed by any of the characters in the thin sliver of time in which we see them interact. The reason we don't hear about it is because it's not relevant, the story is over and it's not within the scope of the following episodes to address.

It wasn't. That's what I was talking about.

The station has a quarter million people on it. Just because we don't happen to hear any ISA government types discussing it, doesn't mean it isn't a hot topic with the cart merchants down in the Zocalo or the EF officers in Earharts. I'm sure Mack and Boo would have a thing or two to say, but we don't see any of these people so we wouldn't know.

 

[sidious618]

I'm glad to see God Ben is back. Can't wait to read his thoughts on Phoenix Rising.

 

[TheGodBen]

I meant to watch A Call to Arms before starting season 5 but my brother insisted that he wanted to watch it with me as he hadn't seen it in years.

You idiot, you clearly meant to say In the Beginning. I don't know how you could make such a simple mistake.

Oh, you still have that reputation, no worries there; just not with this show. For example, some of your ratings in ENT's fourth season were kind of merger in my opinion. I also don't think Precious Cargo was all that bad; I actually liked it.

Well there you go, that invalidates your opinion right there. The fact that I despise Precious Cargo means that I must be right in my scores for B5.

Now come on Bester, don't let me down you wengeful, little Russian fascist. If you kill Byron and his disgusting hair, I promise you'll be my all-time favorite B5 character.

Assuming that you've seen Phoenix Rising by now...

Since Byron killed himself, does that mean that Byron is now your new favourite character?

I don't even remember that line. But then I haven't seen "Spirit Folk" since it first aired.

On the surface the line isn't that bad, it's just one of the characters mentioning that the town of Killmannin was ruined by a group of fairies in 1846, and one of the things the fairies did was cause the potatoes to rot in the ground, which was apparently an unusual event at that point in time. That was the tipping point for me. It's one thing to be ignorant about geography, customs, sayings, accents and all that malarkey, but if you're going to write a story based in an Irish town in the 19th century, I bloody well expect you to do some basic research and not to display complete ignorance about the defining moment in our history.


Pheonix Rising (***½)

Anyway, Byron hatches a plan to scan the minds of all the diplomats on the station in order to blackmail them into giving him a planet. That's an interesting way to go about things, certainly more interesting than placing bombs or kidnapping people.

This idiot again.

I should have seen it coming. I really should have, especially since I was already shown it in The Deconstruction of Falling Stars! What else can I say, it's a standard hostage situation where the uninteresting nasty guy takes some main characters hostage and the other main characters refuse to negotiate with them because they're terrorists. I'm not such a big fan of that logic, if the British government hadn't negotiated with terrorists back in 1921 then I'd be speaking English right now... Wait, I am. That's a bad way of wording my argument, but you get the idea. Basically, the telepaths have legitimate grievances but nobody is willing to hear them out, so some felt that they had to resort to violence.

But it ends as it always does, the leader of the group shows up, kills his underling and resolves the issue peacefully. Okay, so it doesn't always work that way, especially not in real life, but it seems to end that way 90% of the time on television. I'm not even going to bother mentioning how Byron managed to get into medlab to resolve the issue, apparently the security forces took a lunch-break in the middle of a crisis. In the end Byron surrenders, but that's not good enough so he blows himself and his followers up (real good) for some reason. It's the natural conclusion to his arc, and I'm surprised to find myself saying that I enjoyed the arc more times than I didn't.

Oh gods, I'm a Byron apologist.

The stuff between Bester and Garibaldi was the highlight of the episode. It must be so frustrating for Garibaldi to be treated like a robot by a fascist, it's the sort of thing that would drive a real man to drink. Oh, it does to Garibaldi too! Interesting.

 

[hyzmarca]

While Byron and his telepaths do have legitimate grievances (particularly the rather inhumane law requiring all telepaths to either join the psi-corp or take drugs), they don't actually air any of those. And, in fact, those legitimate grievances are being addressed. Sheriden is giving asylum to telepaths in Babylon 5, after all, and I assume that he is applying political pressure on Earth to change their laws. Anything more would require him to have been actually competent at the end of last season, instead of an absolute moron.


Byron's grievance, that they didn't have a planet to live on, was utter hogwash. If they didn't like it on Babylon 5 then they could have immigrated to Minbar with very little difficulty. And really, there is no appreciable difference between telepaths and mundanes. The extent of the Vorlon's genetic tampering means that practically ever human alive at least has the potential to develop telepathic powers, otherwise Dust and similar drugs wouldn't work. A planet exclusively for telepaths is counter-productive, since interbreeding would eventually make the entire human race into very high level telepaths capable to shedding their corporeal bodies (as we known from Deconstruction of Falling Stars).

But, really, the entire Byron situation is a symptom is a rather huge problem. Sheridan is incompetent. As a military commander, he's great; he can win a war against all odds. As a figurehead, he has a lot going for him; since he came back from the dead and won two major wars he's basically the kick-ass love-child of Jesus and MacArthur. As a politician, he is absolutely worthless.

Sheridan is an idealist of the highest caliber. He is too noble to compromise his ideals. He's willing to make decisions that hurt innocent people because he feels that doing so is in the greater good, but he's not willing to go that extra step and hire a duplicitous ex-spy to kill a neutral ambassador and frame an enemy for the crime and if he did by accident then he probably wouldn't be able to live with it.


In short, Sheridan is incapable of realpolitik, a fact that has already bitten him in the ass (though he fails to see his greatest failure as the failure that it is).

A good politician is a corrupt bastard who is able to maintain his ideals and morality in spite of his corruption. Nixon was a corrupt bastard. When he went to China he started a dialog that eventually transformed China from one of our most bitter enemies to one of our most important partners. Sheridan is as pure as the driven snow. When he went to Zh'Ha'Dum he droped a pair of 500 Megaton nukes on its capital city and escalated a limited conflict that had killed millions into a WMD free-for-all that killed billions. Why the hell didn't anyone call him out on that?

Then, of course, was how he handled his victory over Earth. He surrendered, essentially. This is a very Minbari thing to do (they don't have any military setting between unconditional surrender and total genocide, after all) but it was also very stupid. The EA wasn't a beautiful Utopia that was corrupted by Clark. It was an evil rancid piece of crap and Clark was simply honest about it. Sheridan however, sees the EA through extra-strength beer-goggles because of his loyalty and jingoism. He couldn't stand Clark's blatant assholery, but he is able to look the other way and forget about all the covert assholery going on behind the scenes. Which is a pity as this negligence will lead to a devastating war.

Sheridan could have dismantled the Psi-Corps back when he had umpteen-million guns pointing at Earth. He should have done this, in fact. He should have had the Rangers occupt the planet and put in place a de-clarkification program that would lead to the fair trials and speedy executions of practically every elected official and bureaucrat in the EA and then rebuilt the government from the ground up with a better respect for human rights. You know, exactly what we did with Germany. Instead he abdicates his responsibility as an occupying power and leaves Earth as a hellhole with a nice coat of paint just think enough that most people don't notice.

And then there are Sheridan's other major failures as President, which will be huge spoilers so I won't mention them yet.

Really, the universe would have been much better off if the Apollo arrived a minute later.

 

[Admiral Shran]

Woohoo! Byron's hair is finally out of the picture!

Since Byron killed himself, does that mean that Byron is now your new favourite character?

Actually no, that just makes me hate him all the more.

Seriously, I hated this character. 1.) His complaints were stupid. As hyzmarca said, his legitmate grievances were being dealt with by Sheridan. But no, that wasn't good enough; so he had to get all emo and wall himself up in order to get what he already had. Then he acts shocked when members of his cult start acting violently. WHAT THE HELL DID YOU EXPECT YOU MORON! It's only the next logical step down the road you've started upon! 2.) The guy's acting didn't exactly help either. I'm a pretty forgiving type when it comes to judging an actor's performance. I'm of the opinion that since I have no acting ability of my own then I shouldn't be overly-critical of those who do. In fact, I highly admire actors, as it's something I wish I could do, but can't. In this case, however, the acting was awful. The whole point was to get me to sympathize with the character. In the end, the actor's performance had me annoyed and hateful toward the character. 3.) What exactly did Lyta see in this guy? He makes no sense, his plans are ineffective, he's nothing but mopey, he's a coward, and his hair looks like shit. Then, to top it all off, instead of staying with her and helping her run the telepath community, he blows himself up real good for no particular reason other than that he wants to be a martyr. So, in other words, he basically says - "Well babe, I love you so much that I'm going to scar you for life in order to make you more attached to the community that I'm abandoning." That, in turn, makes her love him all the more. Seriously, I don't get it. 4.) His hair really bothers me.

Speaking of cults - that's exactly what he had, a cult and nothing more. They get all teary-eyed with joy by singing to each other (I'm honestly surprised they didn't start singing Kum bay ya, my Lord, kum bay ya). They all stand around and watch their leader having sex (CREEEEEEEEEEPY! ). They all feel the need to touch their leader when he kisses Lyta. And they leave the station while being individually told to "Remember Jim Jones." Oh, sorry, I meant "Remember Byron."

So, yeah, Byron sucks. I'm glad I don't have to see him anymore, unless he's in some flashbacks later.

Sheridan is an idealist of the highest caliber. He is too noble to compromise his ideals. He's willing to make decisions that hurt innocent people because he feels that doing so is in the greater good, but he's not willing to go that extra step and hire a duplicitous ex-spy to kill a neutral ambassador and frame an enemy for the crime and if he did by accident they he probably wouldn't be able to live with it.

I see what you did there.

All good points about Sheridan though. A good politican has to be capable of realpolitick while not letting it consume him.

 

[neozeks]

It's the natural conclusion to his arc, and I'm surprised to find myself saying that I enjoyed the arc more times than I didn't.

Oh gods, I'm a Byron apologist.

You're not the only one. Actually, I found Byron's arc quite interesting. Probably because the Telepath arc is my favourite in B5 and the reason for that is that it has some good moral ambiguity. From what I remember of my viewing, that's an area I found B5 to be a bit lacking. Cause, aside from Sheridan's questionable use of telepaths in the final battle, is there any real ambiguity in either the Shadow War or the Earth Civil War? Basically, our heroes are always right. And it's not like there wasn't potential - adressing the issue that Sheridan was leading a military dictatorship, for example. Yes, we know it was a benevolent one, but it could still have been adressed.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

The EA wasn't a beautiful Utopia that was corrupted by Clark. It was an evil rancid piece of crap and Clark was simply honest about it. Sheridan however, sees the EA through extra-strength beer-goggles because of his loyalty and jingoism.

While I don't agree with all that you say, this bit is spot-on. It's also why I personally don't find the human/Earth Alliance arc as satisfying as the Minbari, Narn, Centauri, or even League and First One arcs, and why Sheridan never had the same effect on me emotionally as Delenn, G'Kar and Mollari- even Kosh. Those four had to actually come to terms with the fact that their societies are screwed up; more so, that they bear a large part of the responsibility for it, because they embraced their societies - flaws and all- and helped make the situation worse. Delenn, G'Kar and Londo all had to come to the realization that they in part were responsible for the disasters befalling their people, and then work to make it right. It was hinted - or at least I saw it this way - that Kosh had a similar revelation/personal arc. But Sheridan never had that responsibility explored. He was just "the hero"; it, whatever "it" was, was never presented as his fault. He reacted (to Clark) rather than acted, and so his role in enforcing the system beforehand rarely came up. Okay, the Mars Resistance did bring it up briefly- his part in the Food Riots crackdown, etc, so that was welcome. Still, he never had the "This is partly my fault. I've led my people astray/participated in making the problem!" revelation that the aliens did. He therefore couldn't have the same impact on me emotionally. Clark and Psi Corps took all the blame for what's wrong in human society (okay, EA society more specifically), and as you say, the fact that EA was screwed up anyway got washed away and hidden behind the excuse of Clark's dictatorship.

I do wish season five had spent a bit more time on Earth, and dealt with humans a little more extensively. While I liked season five's focus on the Alliance as a whole and the former League members in particular, it did seem a bit too conveniently... "Earth's okay now that Clark's gone". If anyone remembers my mini-rant about Brother Edward, that was in part the same problem- Earth Alliance never had its revelation, because after Clark the pre-Clark alliance became "the good old days" it was apparently a relief to return to, rather than something that really, really needed an overhall.

Sheridan could have dismantled the Psi-Corps back when he had umpteen-million guns pointing at Earth. He should have done this, in fact. He should have had the Rangers occupt the planet and put in place a de-clarkification program that would lead to the fair trials and speedy executions of practically every elected official and bureaucrat in the EA and then rebuilt the government from the ground up with a better respect for human rights.

I have to disagree strongly on this part, though. If foreign nations invade someone's country, execute all its leaders (of all things!) and occupy the place, no-one will shrug it off happily as necessary and "for the greater good". They'll be angry, outraged, humiliated, and quite rightly. It's not Sheridan's place to dictate policy to Earth. The people wouldn't stand for it. It wouldn't be "hail Sheridan", it'll be "oh God, Clark was right!!! Sheridan is trying to take over and sell us out to Minbar!" The people of Earth had been whipped up into a flurry of xenophobia and anti-alien sentiment by Clark's forces, which is exactly why Sheridan had the human ships lead the assault. The populace had to see that it was "the liberation of Earth and the return of power to the people" not "the conquest of Earth by the Minbari". Because that's how it would have been viewed by many, and the Earth-firsters would have whipped everyone up into hysteria. As I'm sure we all know, occupations rarely go smoothly.

I think Sheridan did the right thing- but, that said, I do agree strongly that he really should have done more in the aftermath to sort EA out. As you say, though, he was always quite blind to it- and he has responsibilities to everyone else now. The alien cultures fought and died for him in the Shadow War. I can understand why he sees the Alliance as a whole as more his responsibility now than one world. Also, maybe he wanted to avoid charges of favouritism?

 

[hyzmarca]

Sheridan could have dismantled the Psi-Corps back when he had umpteen-million guns pointing at Earth. He should have done this, in fact. He should have had the Rangers occupt the planet and put in place a de-clarkification program that would lead to the fair trials and speedy executions of practically every elected official and bureaucrat in the EA and then rebuilt the government from the ground up with a better respect for human rights.

I have to disagree strongly on this part, though. If foreign nations invade someone's country, execute all its leaders (of all things!) and occupy the place, no-one will shrug it off happily as necessary and "for the greater good". They'll be angry, outraged, humiliated, and quite rightly.

You're right, of course, which is exactly why a resurgent Nazi party took control of Germany in the mid-90s and started a nuclear war with France.

Wait, that didn't happen.

De-Nazification and the Nuremburg trials worked, as did similar efforts in occupied Japan. Both countries were so severely traumatized by their defeats and the aftermath that they codified pacifism into their new constitutions and became very annoying about actually following that sentiment (I mean, really, Japan could have been very helpful during the Korean War, if not for Article Nine).

We invaded, conquered, and executed most of their leaders. And they loved us for it.

I'm sure that a few panicky young women would throw themselves off cliffs due to fear of being ravished by hot muscular Minbari studs, but it would be isolated and would stop as soon as it became apparent that Minbar doesn't need women.

And heck, after a while the situation would likely reverse as Earth culture begins to idealize the Rangers, with panicky hot muscular minbari studs running from nubile young Earth women. This would be excellent because it would greatly increase Lenier's chances of getting laid. Lenier really needs to get laid.


Really, violence between countries is a lot like violence between spouses. If you just beat the crap out of your spouse and then leave him or her lying on the floor then you're an evil bastard who will be demonized. But if you help your spouse up, offer a reconciliation gift, and say that you're sorry that s/he made you do it, then your spouse will love you all the more and try not to do whatever bad thing provoked your rage again. Battered person syndrome is all about inducing a state of self-loathing in which the target of the abuse believes that it is all their fault. The same thing can be done on a national scale with a little bit of effort and some very big guns.

The Earth-Firsters could be marginalized just as easily as the Nazis and the Japanese nationalists were.