Riker to Jellico: There's no Joy. -Are you #$# kidding me?!

[flemm]

Jellico stated that he could order him to go on the shuttle mission, but wouldn't, so Riker told him to ask him. That was Riker's ego moment.

I don't think this was even intended to be perceived as an ego moment, but more of a commentary by Riker on Jellico's command style. In other words, "all you have to do is ask," which is in the same vein as Riker's perception that Jellico should relax a bit, shouldn't get everybody so wound up, etc.

Overall as far as this episode is concerned, I subscribe to the notion already mentioned earlier in the thread that this is mostly just a case of characters being overwritten to create conflict and fill out the story.

 

[Renvar]

I love this episode, in its entirety. It's a great expression of the clash of military and civilian mindsets. Jellico is pro-military, Riker is pro-civilian. Obviously when two such extremely different philosophies come into contact, there's going to be sparks.

Now the big question: is Starfleet a military organization? In two very obvious ways, it is. First, they are organized in a military fashion, with designated ranks to signify final without-question authority. Promotions and demotions are used to commend or punish behavior. In the most serious of cases, they have their own judicial collective to dispense severe punishment and dismissal from service, commonly referred to several times in the series as a court-martial. Secondly, Starfleet is an organization founded by a centralized civilian government, the Federation, to explore the boundaries of unknown space and to protect Federation interests in known space. It receives the resources to carry out these objectives from said civilian government, and has extreme civilian oversight (as the Federation President has been clearly stated as Starfleet's commander-in-chief, and Starfleet routinely takes orders from the Federation Council).

Now, while that is all well and good, as Captain Archer once told Captain Jeffries, "I don't want to be in command of a warship, trying to make contact with new species." After misunderstandings with the Klingon Empire led to decades of war with the Federation, it was decided that Starfleet needed a more diplomatic face forward. Enter Jean-Luc Picard as the captain of Starfleet's flagship. With that type of diplomatic personality, you're also going to get a captain that takes care of his crew. It's also most likely that, excluding the "Borg Scare" and the Cardassian Border Wars, there hasn't been a major public (thanks Section 31!) threat to the security of the Federation since the Klingons signed the Khitomer Accords at the end of the 23rd century. After several decades of the Federation reshaping their military force to be more first contact-presentable, it's understandable that many of its officers would adopt a more peacetime mentality. Note that I'm not saying that they're being lazy or unprofessional or unguarded. They're just enjoying an era of relatively peaceful life.

In the end, both philosophies certainly have their good and bad qualities, and integrating them to work together is challenging to say the least. However, I don't think it's fair to say that Riker and the crew of the Enterprise were being "whiney" and "unprofessional" by voicing their concerns with the way Jellico was running things. I'd ask to put yourself in their shoes. They were facing war, and to have that fact so blatantly shoved in their faces by a new commander with a radically different command style will affect morale, and a good captain cannot afford to ignore that. Like Captain Sisko once told Commander Worf, "Part of being a captain is knowing when to smile."

 

[Hober Mallow]

I've already stated somewhere in this thread that I thought the crew were whining too much. On the other hand, maybe it wasn't so much Jellico's command style as much as the fact that he took the place of Picard, someone the crew loved dearly and who was taken from them very suddenly without much in the way of an explanation. Ostensibly, the crew were complaining that Jellico wasn't being fair to them, but it was really Picard's sudden removal from command that really bothered them and they were expressing their frustration.

 

[Rett Mikhal]

I've already stated somewhere in this thread that I thought the crew were whining too much. On the other hand, maybe it wasn't so much Jellico's command style as much as the fact that he took the place of Picard, someone the crew loved dearly and who was taken from them very suddenly without much in the way of an explanation. Ostensibly, the crew were complaining that Jellico wasn't being fair to them, but it was really Picard's sudden removal from command that really bothered them and they were expressing their frustration.

Those were my thoughts, as well. The difficulty in following all Jellico's orders just exacerbated the situation.

I also wonder why the Miranda is still in service. It seems to have basically no shielding or armor. The Akira is a far superior upgrade.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

What is most disturbing about Riker's behaviour is his reaction when Jellico comes to him and tells him that a mission of vital importance to the security of the federation is to be undertaken and he's the only one who can do it.

Does Riker say - such a mission is more important than my petty frustrations? NO!

Riker puts his ego above the good of the federation and says he will only do it if Jellico apologises to him. Apparently, a war starting with the cardassians or entire star systems being lost is LESS important than Riker getting to have his juvenile last word.

Jellico's response? He tramples over his pride and apologises. He DOES put the wellbeing of the federation above his pride, his ego.

Jellico may have been the one who apologised and Riker the one who "had" the last word, but Jellico proved to be the better man. And Riker proved to be a spoiled brat who thinks the universe rotates around himself.

Well. No.

Jellico relieved Riker of duty and came to his quarters to enlist his help.

Jellico stated that he could order him to go on the shuttle mission, but wouldn't, so Riker told him to ask him. That was Riker's ego moment. Jellico never apologized, nor did Riker ask him to.

So - Jellico stated that the shuttle mission was paramount to the security of the Federation and that Riker was the best chance of success for this mission.
He also said he won't order Riker to do it - he can't anymore, Riker being relieved of duty.
In other words, Jellico asked him to do it.

Riker's response - Jellico should "ask" him to fly the mission.
But, you see, Jellico already asked Riker to do it, told him to do it.
Riker's response is akin to 'Say pretty please if you want me to go on the mission', "Beg me to do it if you want me to do it'.
In other words, Riker put gratifying his ego above the security of the Federation.

What did Jellico do? He DID say 'pretty please'; he stepped on his pride.
In other words, Jellico put the Federation above his pride.


Riker was an unprofessional prick with shockingly little loyalty towards the Federation and Jellico, the better man in the scene.
If so little as boosting his ego was, for Riker, more important than the security of the Federation, I wonder just how little motivating it would take for him to become a romulan or cardassian spy, betraying the Federation?

 

[A beaker full of death]

^ well, didn't the other version of Riker join the Maquis?

 

[Brutal Strudel]

Yeah, not only that, but the episode makes it clear he did it not because he fervently believed in the cause but because he felt eclipsed by his doppelganger's success.

Apparently, the Rikers--Will and Tom--are both petty and ego-driven.

 

[GalaxyClass1701]

lol Picard might have been laid back but Jellico was way over the top. Its not like that in the military past boot camp. You need the men under you to respect you all Jellico did was make them hate him. He crossed the line you need to be tough but you also have to be fair.

The best part of the episode has to be when Jellico tells Troi to put the regular uniform on

 

[A beaker full of death]

^ You think that was anywhere near boot camp??
The man changed the shift rotation, and people lost their friggin minds. Please. There'd have been a series of courts martial. And Riker's career would have been over.

 

[GalaxyClass1701]

^ You think that was anywhere near boot camp??
The man changed the shift rotation, and people lost their friggin minds. Please. There'd have been a series of courts martial. And Riker's career would have been over.

It was the way he went about giving the orders he did it in a demeaning way. You can bust balls but most CO's in the real military are not complete dicks with the way they give orders.

Also if a new commanding officer in the real Navy was coming to a new ship his orders would be followed but he would have to earn the CREWS RESPECT.

 

[Shatnertage]

From a practical point of view (within the logic of the story), the situation with the Cardies was pretty tense. A misstep here or there, and war would have broken out. And with the E on the front lines, they'd be getting it first.

Shouldn't Riker, a career officer, be rising to the occasion and putting aside his personal beef with Riker for the good of his fellow crewmembers, if not for the more abstract security of the Federation? People he'd been serving with for years needed his leadership more than they ever had, and he was going to just sulk?

But what if Jellico didn't politely ask Riker, and Riker didn't go on the mission. Someone else flies the shuttle and thanks to a small but serious error in judgment detonates himself and the mines near the first Cardie ship.

Assuming the Enterprise survived the resulting battle, could the Riker we've seen throughout the show really live with himself after that, knowing that he had the chance to take the job and refused because he wasn't asked politely enough?

 

[Jonas Grumby]

It was the way he went about giving the orders he did it in a demeaning way.

You think the crew found his orders "demeaning"? Granted, I'm no fan of the way this episode portrayed the ENT crew, but even I don't think it portrayed them as that level of hothouse flowers!

Frankly, I think the way Jellico gave his orders was perfectly fine...without even taking into account that he was having to give some of them multiple times just to get them carried out.

 

[Red Ranger]

Those of you who think how Riker reacted to Jellico -- when he asked him to fly the shuttle -- was petty? You're forgetting that Jellico didn't exactly swallow his pride when he said, haughtily, "I don't think you're a particularly good first officer." But Jellico kind of had it in for Riker from the second he didn't instantly implement his four-shift rotation.

Another example: When Picard is still on board, Jellico asks Riker if a probe has been launched. Riker replies, "I didn't know you wanted to be informed." He grumpily says, "Jellico out," then mutters to Picard, "I can see why he's still only a first officer," which then prompts Picard to defend Riker. So if anything, it's Jellico who reacts pettily and unprofessionallly first to Riker, setting the tone for their conflict.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

Red Ranger - yes, there was bad blood between Riker and Jellico.

The essential difference between these men is that Riler put his ego above the security of the Federation (he'll only fly the shuttle if Jellico says the equivalent of 'pretty please'), and Jellico swallowed his pride for the good of the Federation and DID say this 'pretty please'.

Riker's actions paint him as untrustworthy, with superficial loyalty towards the Federation. His only true loyalty seems to be to his ego, to his personal interests.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Apparently, the Rikers--Will and Tom--are both petty and ego-driven.

Clearly not characteristics we can associate with any great military leaders in real world history.

 

[Dancing Doctor]

I think the problem with Riker's depiction, both in this episode and in general, is that he's been forced to bend to the whims of the plot.

We hear, in Season One at least, about how ambitious and driven he is, and how he rose through the ranks. And the ambitious thing gets repeated throughout the series.

But he doesn't leave. For someone described as ambitious and driven, being an XO under the same guy for 14 years or so (2364-2379) seems odd, especially when being offered command of three different starships during as many seasons of the show:

U.S.S Drake NCC-20381 in 2364
U.S.S Aries NCC-45167 in 2365
U.S.S Melbourne NCC-62043 in 2366

He turns them all down. He doesn't want the Drake, because a better offer came along (presumably the XO position on the Enterprise-D). Admittedly, the Drake doesn't sound like a ship I'd want either.

He doesn't want the Aries because of the "distinction" he got as being the XO on the Enterprise-D, for, as he said, "self-interest". So, instead of being in charge of his own starship, instead of being the ambitious officer he was (and still is) described as...he stays.

He ultimately doesn't get the chance to accept or turn down command of the Melbourne, since Picard gets captured, he gets field-promoted, and it gets destroyed at Wolf 359. But a good portion of Best of Both Worlds is taken up by his wondering about his future, and why he remains. And, after having been part of the successful effort to defeat the Borg cube, and in light of his previous accomplishments, we hear that he would probably be offered any starship command he wanted, especially since Starfleet would need as many experienced officers to help fill the gap left by the 39 starships and 11,000 lost. Instead, he stays as Enterprise XO.

This is the last time, from TNG up to VOY, that we hear of Riker being offered a command.

In the episode Death Wish, which takes place in 2372, Q (John de Lancie's Q, not the other Q in this episode) mentions that he had thought Riker would have taken command of Voyager, so it's possible that he was offered it and turned it down as well.

And then there's nothing until 2379 and Nemesis, where Riker finally takes command of a starship, namely the U.S.S Titan NCC-80102. While there's no canonical explanation, in the A Time to... novel series, Admiral Janeway contacts Riker and says that he's being offered the Titan, and that he can expect nothing further from Starfleet Command if he turns it down. After finally being cornered, and in light of some intense personal and familial conflicts, he accepts.

Getting back to the point I originally raised, Riker, like many of the characters, suffered from both the vagaries of plot, and the need to have continuity amongst the cast, even if it wasn't very realistic, and conflicted with what has been said of the character or characters.

 

[A beaker full of death]

Riker was the Decker of TNG. Everything about Phase II Kirk, Decker, Ilia and Xon was transposed to Picard, Riker, Troi and Data.
Picard was supposed to sit back and mastermind, while Riker was supposed to be the man of action. And that's how it was written the first season. But then Stewart started pushing for more action, and Frakes just didn't have the charisma to carry the leading man role. So Frakes - and Riker - stayed in Stewart's shadow.

 

[Shatnertage]

^^^^^^^
I think the last two posters hit the nail on the head.