Riker to Jellico: There's no Joy. -Are you #$# kidding me?!

[Red Ranger]

I remain unconvinced by the Riker-haters and Jellico-boosters that Riker was necessarily wrong. As I recall, Picard liked the fact that Riker had the balls to contradict his previous captain, DeSoto, when he objected to him leading an away team. So, there are two types of Starfleet officers: Those who make allowances for officers who have some independence (Picard and DeSoto), and who obviously aren't threatened by that, and those who don't tolerate that (Jellico and Adm. Pressman) and are threatened by that.

 

[Jonas Grumby]

^ "Riker haters"?

I don't see any "Riker haters" here. I see quite a few fans who are sort of pissed and amused at the same time over how the writers of this particular episode took a character that they have admired and turned him into a whiny little bitch.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I'm not sure I'd count the 2009 movie, since that's considered an "alternate continuity".

Is it?

Yes.

 

[SeerSGB]

^ "Riker haters"?

I don't see any "Riker haters" here. I see quite a few fans who are sort of pissed and amused at the same time over how the writers of this particular episode took a character that they have admired and turned him into a whiny little bitch.

I'm more pissed that the writers, over the years neutered Riker. He only got 'em back in the movies.

 

[Jonas Grumby]

^ Well, I'll admit this wasn't the only episode to treat the Riker character rather shabbily, but I always thought this one was the worst one.

 

[number6]

I'm not sure I'd count the 2009 movie, since that's considered an "alternate continuity".

Is it?

Yes.

Absolutely. 2009 Trek is an entirely new storyline. All bets are off the table there.

 

[Shatnertage]

^ "Riker haters"?

I don't see any "Riker haters" here. I see quite a few fans who are sort of pissed and amused at the same time over how the writers of this particular episode took a character that they have admired and turned him into a whiny little bitch.

Yeah, I like Riker. I just don't like the way he was written in this story. Or him lounging around in a silk robe while the Federation is teetering on the brink of war, demanding that his captain jump through hoops before he helps out.

 

[Kirk1980]

I'm not sure I'd count the 2009 movie, since that's considered an "alternate continuity".

Is it?

Yes.

You'll have to take that up with the rest of the board.

Lots of people have said the 09 movie is canon.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ Well of course the 09 movie is canon. It's just a different continuity - existing alongside the one we're already familiar with. It doesn't overwrite anything. History has not been changed - just created a new one.

The terms 'canon' and 'continuity' are completely different.

 

[Shatnertage]

Is there something like Godwin's law for the Trek BBS, that at some point all threads eventually become about "the new movie sucked"/"the new movie was awesome?"

If not, there should be.

 

[siskokid888]

I don't have a problem with Riker and the crew in this ep. They all follow the orders Jellico gives. As first officer, it is Riker's job to discuss crew concerns with the Captain. And when he gives the "no joy" speech, he is giving his opinion, as Jellico has started a "man to man" discussion. The only time he challenges Jellico is over abandoning Picard, and that causes him to be relieved of duty. So I don't see anything out of whack with Riker's behavior in this story.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

What is most disturbing about Riker's behaviour is his reaction when Jellico comes to him and tells him that a mission of vital importance to the security of the federation is to be undertaken and he's the only one who can do it.

Does Riker say - such a mission is more important than my petty frustrations? NO!

Riker puts his ego above the good of the federation and says he will only do it if Jellico apologises to him. Apparently, a war starting with the cardassians or entire star systems being lost is LESS important than Riker getting to have his juvenile last word.

Jellico's response? He tramples over his pride and apologises. He DOES put the wellbeing of the federation above his pride, his ego.

Jellico may have been the one who apologised and Riker the one who "had" the last word, but Jellico proved to be the better man. And Riker proved to be a spoiled brat who thinks the universe rotates around himself.

 

[number6]

What is most disturbing about Riker's behaviour is his reaction when Jellico comes to him and tells him that a mission of vital importance to the security of the federation is to be undertaken and he's the only one who can do it.

Does Riker say - such a mission is more important than my petty frustrations? NO!

Riker puts his ego above the good of the federation and says he will only do it if Jellico apologises to him. Apparently, a war starting with the cardassians or entire star systems being lost is LESS important than Riker getting to have his juvenile last word.

Jellico's response? He tramples over his pride and apologises. He DOES put the wellbeing of the federation above his pride, his ego.

Jellico may have been the one who apologised and Riker the one who "had" the last word, but Jellico proved to be the better man. And Riker proved to be a spoiled brat who thinks the universe rotates around himself.

Well. No.

Jellico relieved Riker of duty and came to his quarters to enlist his help.

Jellico stated that he could order him to go on the shuttle mission, but wouldn't, so Riker told him to ask him. That was Riker's ego moment. Jellico never apologized, nor did Riker ask him to.

 

[Dancing Doctor]

Plus, it's not like anyone else couldn't have flown the shuttle. Hell, Data probably could have done a better job. Jellico was told that Riker was the most skilled. Jellico could have been "Fuck that bitch". He didn't, and instead decided to ask Riker to do it.

Hell, he could have ordered him to do so, and if Riker didn't he'd have made himself look even worse.

 

[Rett Mikhal]

I'm surprised Jellico is so liked. He always came off as dangerously close to a Nazi to me.

Did he ever give a reason for the 4-shift rotation other than that's the way he did things? Anything like "it's more efficient" or "that's the new Starfleet Protocol"?

He always seemed, to me, like he was barking orders for the sake of barking orders. "Get rid of that fish in my ready room."

As to the no joy line, Starfleet isn't the military. There are families and schools on board the Enterprise. It's primarily about exploration and advancement of humanity. Change for the sake of change isn't an advance.

If they didn't want the crew happy, they wouldn't have holodecks.

 

[Dancing Doctor]

Jellico's reason for the 4-shuft rotation is because that's how he ran his ship, and since he was placed in command of the Enterprise, it's his prerogative to adjust the ship's operations as he sees fit.

Starfleet's duties are exploration and defense, and in this circumstance the defense takes priority. It wasn't change for the sake of change, but rather change for the sake of presenting a hard line to the Cardassians and getting them to back down.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

I'm surprised Jellico is so liked. He always came off as dangerously close to a Nazi to me.

Nah, just a vain and insecure fool.

 

[Rett Mikhal]

Awfully vain for someone who just commands an out of date Excelsior Class...

Yeah, I know ambassadors ride around in them but I think that's more for style. I tried playing one in StarFleet Command III. A guy floating in space with a laser rifle has a better chance to win than one of those antiques.

Jellico's reason for the 4-shuft rotation is because that's how he ran his ship, and since he was placed in command of the Enterprise, it's his prerogative to adjust the ship's operations as he sees fit.

Starfleet's duties are exploration and defense, and in this circumstance the defense takes priority. It wasn't change for the sake of change, but rather change for the sake of presenting a hard line to the Cardassians and getting them to back down.

Yeah, but part of being an effective leader is getting over yourself and listening to logic as well as the advice of your crew. Since your crew actually DO things and you just order them to do things, you want them to do things well. Everyone and their sister agreed the four-shift rotation was a dumb move, and it seems even dumber when they knew they had to pull out the boxing gloves.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. This goes back to my "giving orders to feel good about giving orders" theory. Jellico is more like an upper management douchebag to me.

 

[Dancing Doctor]

Didn't Data go along with what Jellico wanted, though? I don't remember Data opposing the four-shift rotation, although it has been a while.

And I disagree with you about the Excelsior-class. They're shown as being a very sturdy, trustworthy vessel. It's those god damn Miranda-class ships you've got to worry about. If a Pakled looks at one cross-eyed they explode.

 

[DGCatAniSiri]

Didn't Data go along with what Jellico wanted, though? I don't remember Data opposing the four-shift rotation, although it has been a while.

Keep in mind, though, Data doesn't require sleep or rec time - if he needed to, he could probably work four shifts for four months and not complain about it.

That said, was there ever a scene where Data discussed his opinions about Jellico? I think it might have been interesting to hear him discuss the differences of command style between the two captains.

And I disagree with you about the Excelsior-class. They're shown as being a very sturdy, trustworthy vessel. It's those god damn Miranda-class ships you've got to worry about. If a Pakled looks at one cross-eyed they explode.

Agreed. Excelsiors are portrayed as still flying after over a hundred years of production, they must have done something right while building them. Mirandas, though, I'm convinced translate to 'cannon fodder' in some language or another.