Iliana
- Thread starter MikeS
- Start date
Maybe that was her whole point. To give Ben the opportunity to redeem himself.
Jacob seems to be all about having a choice, and seems a bit pissed that he didn't have one. So here, Ben is outright given a choice to side with MiB completely, not in the heat of the moment of feeling betrayed, and after killing Jacob. Ben's given one last real choice by Illana when he thought none were left.
Jacob seems to be all about having a choice, and seems a bit pissed that he didn't have one. So here, Ben is outright given a choice to side with MiB completely, not in the heat of the moment of feeling betrayed, and after killing Jacob. Ben's given one last real choice by Illana when he thought none were left.
Frankly, I'm not sure why we needed Dogen, anyone from the temple, the temple itself or most of what stuff we got from season 6. I mean, I loved the finale, but much of what they introduced late in the series like Illana, The Temple and it's inhabitants and even most of the freighter fold seemed to be unnecessary to the actual story.
Ilana turned out to be a plot device. The least they could have done is give her a flashback. They had that tease of her in the hospital wounded in "The Incident". It would have helped explain why she was injured, why she appeared to have a different relationship with Jacob than the rest of the Others who didn't interact directly with besides Richard--she once described him as a father and since it would heavily involve Jacob most likely it would give the writers another opportunity to flesh him out a bit more. Heck can we even be sure she was an Other. Afterall, once the Others were brought to the island they weren't ever allowed to leave for good--just a quick visit for some off-island assignment like Mr Friendly. Was she an Other?
As it stands now the whole abrupt way she was killed off with no further thought given to her strikes me as the same kind of cheap death spectacle Heroes partaked in often--bringing in a character that seemingly would be developed only to treat them as a plot point before killing them off abruptly and unsatisfyingly.
I mean what better things did they have to do this season that they couldn't have squeezed her in. What we needed all the back and forth on the island from one camp to the next?!?
This is just one more reason season six wasn't exactly the most focused season and it certainly didn't make the most of the 18 episodes it had.
As it stands now the whole abrupt way she was killed off with no further thought given to her strikes me as the same kind of cheap death spectacle Heroes partaked in often--bringing in a character that seemingly would be developed only to treat them as a plot point before killing them off abruptly and unsatisfyingly.
I mean what better things did they have to do this season that they couldn't have squeezed her in. What we needed all the back and forth on the island from one camp to the next?!?
This is just one more reason season six wasn't exactly the most focused season and it certainly didn't make the most of the 18 episodes it had.
Dogen and Lennon had to be two of the dullest characters the series ever introduced. And the time spent at the mysterious Temple now in hindsight seems to have been nothing more than padding to drag out the season.
Iliana was there for the same reason a lot of the minor characters were - to pad out the story and give the writers cannon fodder to blow up real good.
No idea. I also thought Ilana and the temple were a complete waste. Come to think of it... them reintroducing Cindy and the kids only to not explain anything was a waste.
That point was quickly lost when Ben flip flopped back to helping the man in black.
Ilana was simply a plot mover and a set piece of the worst kind. She was nothing more, despite hints of it. Of course, such misdirection is what the show is infamous for.
I don't think Ben ever changed back, he just bought time by pretending to and simultaneously got to take revenge for Alex's death in the process.
The thing with Widmore was personal, and I totally understood his motivation.
The thing with Widmore was personal, and I totally understood his motivation.
Ilana was hot.
It was a bit weird that she was supposed to be the one to protect the candidates but didn't actually know how to. Well all she knew was to ask Richard (and he didn't really know what to do either).
It was a bit weird that she was supposed to be the one to protect the candidates but didn't actually know how to. Well all she knew was to ask Richard (and he didn't really know what to do either).
This is interesting. I wonder if people who took Ben's "reversal" at face value are, by and large, the same people disappointed with the finale.
If the viewer did not see Ben's S6 actions as being consistent within his ongoing character arc it means they were not paying attention to his character arc. Can it be then that they were not paying attention to anyone's character arcs? Not particularly close attention anyway. So the character-based series resolution was ultimately unsatisfying?
I guess I'm being obvious.
Yeah, but still, it's not exactly what you'd call being redeemed. He never really was redeemed, and that's what the whole point was of his arc. Ilana may have welcomed him because she felt sorry for him, but that didn't change him. He still felt compelled to kill out of revenge for a death that was partially his own fault, proving that he's learned nothing.
doubleohfive
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I disagree. The whole point of Ben killing Widmore was to demonstrate to us that Ben really is still the poor, little abused boy he was back in the '70s. He's the nerdy dweeb who wanted didn't want to be left-out, to be included, and part of the gang. But despite all the things Ben did, all the amazing things he'd seen, he was still that guy who was the last kid picked for dodgeball team. Or, in this case, the guy kicked out of the book club.
Look at all the child-like gut-reaction things Ben did over the course of the series.
Shooting Locke.
Killing Locke.
Arranging for Goodwin to get killed because Ben wanted Juliet for himself.
Even that scene where Ben takes Sawyer to the clifftops on Hydra island and quotes Of Mice and Men, Ben's indignant "Don't you read?" was very petulant, as a child would say it. Sure, Ben's an adult and has done some terrible things, but there's a very child-like quality to how expertly he lies, manipulates and controls other people.
It's only when he gets to the flash-sideways universe, the bardo-stage, as it were, that he realizes all the horrible things he's done and that despite what was likely, (if we are to give Hurley's remarks any credence) a long, fruitful and good life on the island as Hurley's "number two," Ben still recognized he had a lot to atone for, which is why he didn't join the other castaways in the church. He apologizes to Locke even, for being so consumingly jealous of how "special" Locke was, and Locke forgives him! On top of this, and Hurley's invitation, Ben still stays outside.
Now you could say he was just waiting for Alex, but I like to think Ben recognized his complicity in much of the pain Jack experienced on the island, and realized he probably shouldn't go in just yet, coupled with all the sins he had to make up for. But for the person who clearly just wanted to be included, to be let in on the secret, and to be 'one of the gang' --which I think we can all agree is a fair assessment of Ben's psyche-- to turn down the invite, I think, says volumes and proves he did redeem himself.
So, I disagree whole-heartedly that "he learned nothing," because it's clear Ben did. Just because it happened in the after-life doesn't negate it, and if that's point you're trying to argue, I think that's really scrutinizing to the extreme.
Look at all the child-like gut-reaction things Ben did over the course of the series.
Shooting Locke.
Killing Locke.
Arranging for Goodwin to get killed because Ben wanted Juliet for himself.
Even that scene where Ben takes Sawyer to the clifftops on Hydra island and quotes Of Mice and Men, Ben's indignant "Don't you read?" was very petulant, as a child would say it. Sure, Ben's an adult and has done some terrible things, but there's a very child-like quality to how expertly he lies, manipulates and controls other people.
It's only when he gets to the flash-sideways universe, the bardo-stage, as it were, that he realizes all the horrible things he's done and that despite what was likely, (if we are to give Hurley's remarks any credence) a long, fruitful and good life on the island as Hurley's "number two," Ben still recognized he had a lot to atone for, which is why he didn't join the other castaways in the church. He apologizes to Locke even, for being so consumingly jealous of how "special" Locke was, and Locke forgives him! On top of this, and Hurley's invitation, Ben still stays outside.
Now you could say he was just waiting for Alex, but I like to think Ben recognized his complicity in much of the pain Jack experienced on the island, and realized he probably shouldn't go in just yet, coupled with all the sins he had to make up for. But for the person who clearly just wanted to be included, to be let in on the secret, and to be 'one of the gang' --which I think we can all agree is a fair assessment of Ben's psyche-- to turn down the invite, I think, says volumes and proves he did redeem himself.
So, I disagree whole-heartedly that "he learned nothing," because it's clear Ben did. Just because it happened in the after-life doesn't negate it, and if that's point you're trying to argue, I think that's really scrutinizing to the extreme.
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Ben killed Widmore because the story demanded it. Imagine if Widmore got away scott free! Or if someone else had killed him. It would be as big a disappointment as, say, Kate being the one to finally kill Smokey. 
(I think Ben should have killed Smokey, too).
Ben most likely dug himself somewhat out of his karmic hole by helping Hurley in their post-series island sojourn. But the fact that Danielle, Alex and Michael were nowhere to be seen means it's only right he not go in the church. If Michael is still stuck on the island because of Ben's manipulations, then Ben is duty bound to wait till Michael shows up and can forgive him, as well as himself.
(I think Ben should have killed Smokey, too).Ben most likely dug himself somewhat out of his karmic hole by helping Hurley in their post-series island sojourn. But the fact that Danielle, Alex and Michael were nowhere to be seen means it's only right he not go in the church. If Michael is still stuck on the island because of Ben's manipulations, then Ben is duty bound to wait till Michael shows up and can forgive him, as well as himself.
Eye candy.
The Temple and Iliana seemed to be the last links to Jacobs protection of the Island. To introduce (or re-introduce) that many have come to the island, that many know of what the island is capable of, who Jacob is and what he does, and that the religion built around Jacob is coming to an end. The Temple a church of Jacob, and Iliana and Dogen being just some of his disciples. Smokey's destruction of these connections is to further the notion that Jacobs protection, and his "game" with Smokey is truly over. Only after their conflict is done can it all begin again with the lessons learned for a new protector. As Ben said: "that was Jacobs way of doing things"... now Hurley can protect the island the way he see's fit without all of Jacob's baggage.
I was simply replying to the claim that Ilana was there to give Ben redemption. If it was the afterlife that caused him to atone for his transgressions, then it was the afterlife, not Ilana.
When I said he learned nothing, I mean that he learned nothing in the portion of his lifetime that we see. He may have done something afterward with Hurley, but we don't see that, we're just told that he's able to make it to the flash sideways.
That's a beautiful post. Very nice understanding of the character of Ben.
And i think Ben's change also says something about the "healing water", that supposed turns people evil...that such a legend really wasn't true. it might have magnified some bad qualities, but still allowed a person healed by the water to still do redeeming acts.
