Riker to Jellico: There's no Joy. -Are you #$# kidding me?!

[BillJ]

My bigger question is this:

How far has Riker fallen in the eyes of Starfleet? This is the man who was in command when the Enterprise saved Sector 001 from the Borg. Yet Starfleet doesn't trust him to negotiate and possibly combat a Cardassian invasion?

No one knows the ship and crew better than Riker.

 

[Jonas Grumby]

No one knows the ship and crew better than Riker.

But, IIRC, the point was made that no one knew the Cardassians better than Jellico.

But you're right: No one knows the ship and crew better than Riker. And that being the case, in this instance it would have been Riker's primary duty - as executive officer and especially in the midst of a crisis situation - to see that his crew worked efficiently and effectively with their new commander. He failed that responsibility miserably, effectively ending up sulking in his cabin.

Or rather, I should say the writers failed miserably. Judging by the majority of other TNG episodes, I don't believe the real William Riker would have ever behaved in such a childish and unprofessional manner.

 

[Dancing Doctor]

My bigger question is this:

How far has Riker fallen in the eyes of Starfleet? This is the man who was in command when the Enterprise saved Sector 001 from the Borg. Yet Starfleet doesn't trust him to negotiate and possibly combat a Cardassian invasion?

He also turned down 3 different starship commands, which always bugged me, since he was always portrayed as this ambitious officer. Maybe Starfleet thought "Fine. We offer 3 different commands, you turn them down. Don't expect any shit from us any time soon."

 

[SeerSGB]

My bigger question is this:

How far has Riker fallen in the eyes of Starfleet? This is the man who was in command when the Enterprise saved Sector 001 from the Borg. Yet Starfleet doesn't trust him to negotiate and possibly combat a Cardassian invasion?

He also turned down 3 different starship commands, which always bugged me, since he was always portrayed as this ambitious officer. Maybe Starfleet thought "Fine. We offer 3 different commands, you turn them down. Don't expect any shit from us any time soon."

That's what I was thinking. Riker might be seen as a good "middle management" type during TNG, but he's stepped back to many times to come across as having the brass ones needed to piss with the Cardassians. Look what happened: he had a meal-ticket post Borg Invasion, any ship he wanted, but he stayed Picard's number-one. Mid to Latter TNG Riker really didn't have that strong of a backbone. It's like they took a Kirk-style Character (Riker up through Season 3) and decided to turn him into Picard-Lite.

 

[Dancing Doctor]

My bigger question is this:

How far has Riker fallen in the eyes of Starfleet? This is the man who was in command when the Enterprise saved Sector 001 from the Borg. Yet Starfleet doesn't trust him to negotiate and possibly combat a Cardassian invasion?

He also turned down 3 different starship commands, which always bugged me, since he was always portrayed as this ambitious officer. Maybe Starfleet thought "Fine. We offer 3 different commands, you turn them down. Don't expect any shit from us any time soon."

That's what I was thinking. Riker might be seen as a good "middle management" type during TNG, but he's stepped back to many times to come across as having the brass ones needed to piss with the Cardassians. Look what happened: he had a meal-ticket post Borg Invasion, any ship he wanted, but he stayed Picard's number-one. Mid to Latter TNG Riker really didn't have that strong of a backbone. It's like they took a Kirk-style Character (Riker up through Season 3) and decided to turn him into Picard-Lite.

And it wasn't until Nemesis, when people probably thought "What the hell. Data's dying and the crew's breaking up anyway. Let's have him finally get his own command after he marries Deanna."

I completely agree with your point. If you notice, Riker was offered the Drake in 2364, the Aries in 2365, and finally the Melbourne in 2366. For an organization to offer not one but 3 different commands to the same person in a similar amount of time is extremely rare. And, as soon as Riker rejected the Melbourne and willingly stood down as captain post Best of Both Worlds, the offers dried up. The only mention of Riker being offered a command from Best of Both Worlds to Nemesis is in some dialogue between Q and Janeway which could be interpreted to read that Riker may have been offered command of Voyager as well.

SPOILER FOR BOOK!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

In the novel A Time to Hate, Janeway, by now a Vice Admiral contacts Riker after his dad's funeral and tells him that Starfleet is offering him command of the Titan, and that this is his absolute last chance.

He finally decides to take it.

 

[Shatnertage]

To me, the episode showed Jellico as a great negotiator and a firm commander. The officers beneath him complained and questioned orders way too much for a ship with any sense of discipline.

To me it was another example of how the TNG regulars circled the wagons when anyone new came aboard. Naturally a lot of this is because if you just had the crew hanging out with a bunch of really cool guests, it wouldn't be a very dramatic show. But it didn't say much that, on a ship supposedly dedicated to exploring strange new worlds, the officers got so out of joint every time someone modified their duty schedules or wanted to experiment with the warp engines. Or do whatever Mendon wanted to do in "A Matter of Honor."

Riker really didn't acquit himself well, IMHO. Disagreeing with your captain, then getting your revenge by wearing a silky kimono at him...come on.

 

[SeerSGB]

He also turned down 3 different starship commands, which always bugged me, since he was always portrayed as this ambitious officer. Maybe Starfleet thought "Fine. We offer 3 different commands, you turn them down. Don't expect any shit from us any time soon."

That's what I was thinking. Riker might be seen as a good "middle management" type during TNG, but he's stepped back to many times to come across as having the brass ones needed to piss with the Cardassians. Look what happened: he had a meal-ticket post Borg Invasion, any ship he wanted, but he stayed Picard's number-one. Mid to Latter TNG Riker really didn't have that strong of a backbone. It's like they took a Kirk-style Character (Riker up through Season 3) and decided to turn him into Picard-Lite.

And it wasn't until Nemesis, when people probably thought "What the hell. Data's dying and the crew's breaking up anyway. Let's have him finally get his own command after he marries Deanna."

I completely agree with your point. If you notice, Riker was offered the Drake in 2364, the Aries in 2365, and finally the Melbourne in 2366. For an organization to offer not one but 3 different commands to the same person in a similar amount of time is extremely rare. And, as soon as Riker rejected the Melbourne and willingly stood down as captain post Best of Both Worlds, the offers dried up. The only mention of Riker being offered a command from Best of Both Worlds to Nemesis is in some dialogue between Q and Janeway which could be interpreted to read that Riker may have been offered command of Voyager as well.

SPOILER FOR BOOK!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

In the novel A Time to Hate, Janeway, by now a Vice Admiral contacts Riker after his dad's funeral and tells him that Starfleet is offering him command of the Titan, and that this is his absolute last chance.

He finally decides to take it.

I have a couple of issues with the end of BoBW, mainly cause they could it bugged me-- even watching it first run-- that Starfleet handed the 1701-D back to Picard right after being captured and used and "implanted" by the enemy. Didn't anyone stop and think, 'hmmmm this might not be a good ideal, lets have him hang around HQ fora bit and make sure he's not still an enemy agent'' or "we've got a PR nightmare with the Captain of the flagship leading an attack on Earth, we need a show trial and we need to smack him around a little to make us look good."

Even if Riker turned down the job, they could have stuck someone like Jellico on the ship to run the show till Picard was cleared.

Then again, I've always wondered what Riker would do if Jellico had retained the 1701-D (again, Picard captured, tortured, foreign device implanted, here's the keys to the 1701-D). Was he going to whine his way through the tour, would he try for his own ship, or would he say "eff you" and leave the service.

 

[Dancing Doctor]

Didn't Family take place right after BoBW? I mean, the Enterprise-D is undergoing repairs, and Picard is on leave, and, I assume, under the eye of Starfleet Counseling and Troi.

 

[SeerSGB]

Didn't Family take place right after BoBW? I mean, the Enterprise-D is undergoing repairs, and Picard is on leave, and, I assume, under the eye of Starfleet Counseling and Troi.

Yeah, but even then it was played as Picard's choice and there's no follow up (to use a term) on the Starfleet side. Even then it was a week (tops), still seems to "get out of jail free' for my liking.

 

[Dancing Doctor]

Didn't Family take place right after BoBW? I mean, the Enterprise-D is undergoing repairs, and Picard is on leave, and, I assume, under the eye of Starfleet Counseling and Troi.

Yeah, but even then it was played as Picard's choice and there's no follow up (to use a term) on the Starfleet side. Even then it was a week (tops), still seems to "get out of jail free' for my liking.

Maybe they figured that since Deanna's already assigned to be with him, that as long as she supervised him (and had Riker and Crusher back her up) it wouldn't be too bad.

 

[Chaos Descending]

I have a couple of issues with the end of BoBW, mainly cause they could it bugged me-- even watching it first run-- that Starfleet handed the 1701-D back to Picard right after being captured and used and "implanted" by the enemy. Didn't anyone stop and think, 'hmmmm this might not be a good ideal, lets have him hang around HQ fora bit and make sure he's not still an enemy agent'' or "we've got a PR nightmare with the Captain of the flagship leading an attack on Earth, we need a show trial and we need to smack him around a little to make us look good."

Even if Riker turned down the job, they could have stuck someone like Jellico on the ship to run the show till Picard was cleared.

Then again, I've always wondered what Riker would do if Jellico had retained the 1701-D (again, Picard captured, tortured, foreign device implanted, here's the keys to the 1701-D). Was he going to whine his way through the tour, would he try for his own ship, or would he say "eff you" and leave the service.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, the ballsiest move that TPTB behind TNG could have done was kill off Picard after being turned into Locutus, and given command to Riker. THAT would have been groundbreaking TV.

 

[BillJ]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, the ballsiest move that TPTB behind TNG could have done was kill off Picard after being turned into Locutus, and given command to Riker. THAT would have been groundbreaking TV.

Agreed.

 

[SeerSGB]

I have a couple of issues with the end of BoBW, mainly cause they could it bugged me-- even watching it first run-- that Starfleet handed the 1701-D back to Picard right after being captured and used and "implanted" by the enemy. Didn't anyone stop and think, 'hmmmm this might not be a good ideal, lets have him hang around HQ fora bit and make sure he's not still an enemy agent'' or "we've got a PR nightmare with the Captain of the flagship leading an attack on Earth, we need a show trial and we need to smack him around a little to make us look good."

Even if Riker turned down the job, they could have stuck someone like Jellico on the ship to run the show till Picard was cleared.

Then again, I've always wondered what Riker would do if Jellico had retained the 1701-D (again, Picard captured, tortured, foreign device implanted, here's the keys to the 1701-D). Was he going to whine his way through the tour, would he try for his own ship, or would he say "eff you" and leave the service.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, the ballsiest move that TPTB behind TNG could have done was kill off Picard after being turned into Locutus, and given command to Riker. THAT would have been groundbreaking TV.

Problem is that BoBW Riker comes off a bit whiny till a Guinan kicks him in the ass and gets him to stop naval gazing...at least till Picard comes back.

 

[Dancing Doctor]

I have a couple of issues with the end of BoBW, mainly cause they could it bugged me-- even watching it first run-- that Starfleet handed the 1701-D back to Picard right after being captured and used and "implanted" by the enemy. Didn't anyone stop and think, 'hmmmm this might not be a good ideal, lets have him hang around HQ fora bit and make sure he's not still an enemy agent'' or "we've got a PR nightmare with the Captain of the flagship leading an attack on Earth, we need a show trial and we need to smack him around a little to make us look good."

Even if Riker turned down the job, they could have stuck someone like Jellico on the ship to run the show till Picard was cleared.

Then again, I've always wondered what Riker would do if Jellico had retained the 1701-D (again, Picard captured, tortured, foreign device implanted, here's the keys to the 1701-D). Was he going to whine his way through the tour, would he try for his own ship, or would he say "eff you" and leave the service.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, the ballsiest move that TPTB behind TNG could have done was kill off Picard after being turned into Locutus, and given command to Riker. THAT would have been groundbreaking TV.

Problem is that BoBW Riker comes off a bit whiny till a Guinan kicks him in the ass and gets him to stop naval gazing...at least till Picard comes back.

Guinan: Mind if I come in?
Riker: Sure. I was just asking Picard's chair what it would do in my place.
Guinan: That's your problem. I think you need to forget Picard and focus on the mission.
Riker: The chair's been telling me the same thing, but it keeps interrupting itself to beg me not to sit on it.
Guinan: Maybe it's Picard's chair you need to forget.

Five Minute Best of Both Worlds

 

[Arpy]

But fine, the episodes needed work; what gets me about these threads is the total lack of loyalty (there's a military virtue) of some people. OBVIOUSLY the writers dropped the ball on this one. OBVIOUSLY Jellico was supposed to be a "villain". In this case one taking over a regular's duties for an episode like that doctor who took over for Crusher to fix Worf's spine in "Ethics" - the one who haphazardly experimented on patients.

The difference, though, between Jellico and Dr. Toby Russell, was that she was never intended to take over for Dr. Crusher - she was there to be a consultant, due to her work and experience in neurogenetic research.

I was referring to her (Dr. Russell, thanks) being the "central medical figure" in that episode, as Jellico was the "central command figure" for his episodes. Crusher was still CMO of the Enterprise in-universe, but story-wise, the central medical figure in the episode needed to do things Crusher wouldn't so they created Dr. Russell.

I never got the impression that he was a "villain". I felt more that the Enterprise crew had gotten used to Picard's way of doing things, and were given an unpleasant surprise and change.

But that doesn't play out in the episode. The story wasn't about the regular crew being unprofessional but about a guest captain that's an antagonist - like Captain Decker in TOS' "The Doomsday Machine".

"Villain" maybe wasn't the best word...Guls Lemec and Madred are more flat-out villains. Jellico, even if he was originally intended to be a villain turned out more as a source of conflict than the source of conflict. And maybe they didn't intend him to be a villain or he'd have been in the brig by episode's end like Admiral Pressman in TNG's "Pegasus".

 

[Red Ranger]

I tend to agree more with the views of sonak and Milo regarding Jellico's actions. Jellico was similar to Captain Queeg in The Caine Mutiny. I think that's what the writers were going for here. My favorite put-down in Pt. II is when Riker throws back Jellico's words to him, "I don't think you're a particularly good captain."

 

[sbk1234]

To me it was another example of how the TNG regulars circled the wagons when anyone new came aboard. Naturally a lot of this is because if you just had the crew hanging out with a bunch of really cool guests, it wouldn't be a very dramatic show.

They had become a clique. I hate to say it, but this happens in real life. I'm leaving my work location because of a clique where I work. I know it's infintile, but they do exist.
Unfortunately, this really goes against the whole idea of 24th Century humans being more evolved than us 20th Century "savages." Personally, I would expect more professionalism from my Starfleet crews.

And in reference to an earlier post, as much as I hated the Enterprise crew in this episode, I generally have no problem with them when written well.

 

[Shatnertage]

I tend to agree more with the views of sonak and Milo regarding Jellico's actions. Jellico was similar to Captain Queeg in The Caine Mutiny. I think that's what the writers were going for here. My favorite put-down in Pt. II is when Riker throws back Jellico's words to him, "I don't think you're a particularly good captain."

I can see the comparison insofar as his officers didn't confide in him, but Jellico actually handled the situation with the Cardies way better than everyone else on the E. Nerves of steel, especially that, "Oh yeah, you've got some guy named Picard over there. Send him back to us, or...."

Besides being a little prickly with his senior staff--who were recalcitrant themselves--Jellico was a good captain. At least that's how he's depicted.

Someone upthread mentioned the four-shift switch as a way of stressing the crew to see how people responded. I think this might be it. It reminds me of Picard dressing down a young ensign in "Lower Decks" to see how she can handle the pressure, since if she can't take the heat in his office, she won't be able to handle her mission. Before you hear Picard tell her that, he seems like an absolute bastard. After he tells her, he doesn't.

 

[SeerSGB]

I tend to agree more with the views of sonak and Milo regarding Jellico's actions. Jellico was similar to Captain Queeg in The Caine Mutiny. I think that's what the writers were going for here. My favorite put-down in Pt. II is when Riker throws back Jellico's words to him, "I don't think you're a particularly good captain."

I can see the comparison insofar as his officers didn't confide in him, but Jellico actually handled the situation with the Cardies way better than everyone else on the E. Nerves of steel, especially that, "Oh yeah, you've got some guy named Picard over there. Send him back to us, or...."

Besides being a little prickly with his senior staff--who were recalcitrant themselves--Jellico was a good captain. At least that's how he's depicted.

Someone upthread mentioned the four-shift switch as a way of stressing the crew to see how people responded. I think this might be it. It reminds me of Picard dressing down a young ensign in "Lower Decks" to see how she can handle the pressure, since if she can't take the heat in his office, she won't be able to handle her mission. Before you hear Picard tell her that, he seems like an absolute bastard. After he tells her, he doesn't.

It could also be a matter of staying "in character". He had to be a swaggering asshole to deal with the Cardies, for that to work, the crew had to behave like he was a son-of-a-bitch. Easier to be a dick in the beginning the slacken up and have a beer after the fact than try to make buddies when he need people thinking he was the Captain from hell.

 

[BolianAuthor]

I've always loved Jellico, and hated the regular crew in this episode... all except for Data and Worf, of course, because they're the two people that knew better, and actually liked Jellico's command style. You could tell Jellico was happier with Data as his "yes man" First Officer.