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DS9 was the best series......by far.

And that makes it the WORST of all the trek seasons?
worse than ENT season 2? Worse than TNG season 1?

You don't like the choices they made, that's cool. But don't you think you're a bit exaggerating.
Allow me to list great episodes from season 7.

- Once more unto the breach
- Covenant
- Shadows and Symbols
- Treachery, Faith...
- It's only a paper moon
- Tacking into the wind
- The changing face of evil
- Inter arma enim silent leges
- Chimera
and more!!!

Don't tell me those eps were crap. Because they were not.
 
I'm sure I can list a bunch of great episodes in Enterprise, that doesn't make that show any good. I still can't stomach it.
 
might be a little better than tng and considerably superior to tos, but no challenge for voyager and enterprise. had it's strenghts, the ferengi were a great people, and abysmal weaknesses. in particular the main villains founders, vorta, jem-hadar.one-dimensional, ill-conceived, implausible. no competition for sphere-builders and xindi, borg and 8472. ds9 produced few very silly episodes, granted, but also none of the quality of living witness, timeless, observer effect, and chosen realm.

This to a certain extent. I'm going to have to insert TNG in place of ENT, though.

I like the story arcs; it made DS9 uber unique in the Trek universe. But, it's wasn't gold either. I'd say TNG is still the best Trek series so far (and that says a lot given my absolute adoration of Voy).
 
I'm sure I can list a bunch of great episodes in Enterprise, that doesn't make that show any good. I still can't stomach it.

Then list the episodes from ENT season 2 or TNG season 1 that make those seasons better than DS9 season seven.

I don't like some of the choices either. Too much Vic (and Vic's music in the farewell montages??!). Ezri was mostly a waste. The Prophet thing's ending wasn't as good as it could have been.

But it's not like they had the choice to keep Jadzia. I also think that the crew leaving in the end was such a bad choice. Why should they stay? I'd say that it was a stretch that everyone stayed so long as it is, given that they're SF personnel and it's just some space station in a changing strategical situation after all.

Nor was it a definite bad choice trying to wrap everything up. As it turns out, there will probably be no more Trek in the old universe. So having everything in place is actually pretty nice. Messing with the Trek universe by starting a massive war, and then leaving it to B&B to clean up would have been much worse.
 
If they wanted to bring back Dax bring back a stronger character. How did Dax become such a whiney bitch in the end? It's almost like the symbiont didn't exist.
 
well I do agree with most of your points. I'd rate the seasons
4>5>6>2>7>3>1
Just the "worst season of Trek" is what I'm strongly disagreeing on.
We've had some pretty bad Trek seasons.
In my opinion, NONE of the ENT seasons is even better than season 1 of DS9. And from TNG, only seasons 4 and 3 are good enough to compete with DS9. Not counting single TNG eps of course.

VOY, I can't remember, and TOS is beyond comparison.
And don't forget they were doing seven full seasons of a sci-fi show, with ratings dropping, Paramount limiting their avenues, and a tight schedule. I'd say they did well, even if the ending didn't quite deliver as one could have hoped.
 
If the show stopped at season 6 I would agree. But season 7 might have single handedly destroyed the show and made it right there with Voyager. There's just so many flaws with that single season. It might be the worst in all of Star Trek history.

I've never understood nor agreed with this viewpoint. Season 7 may have had a few bad ideas, but nothing so bad that I'd want to stop watching after season 6, or say that it's worse than TNG's first two seasons, or Voyager's second season, for example.


I can go down the list if you want. There's really not that much to like about the 7th season.

Lets start from the beginning. The first episodes you have a lot of things that are disturbing.

Basically you find out Sisko is half profit then he gets stabbed for no apparent reason and IT WAS NEVER EXPLAINED! If a main character gets explained don't you investigate why? Then after being stabbed suddenly Sisko recovers immediately then goes on a mission then suddenly some child like character comes in and says she's Dax.

You replace a Dax with a weaker child basically to play that role. A role with 10 life times basically becomes a whiney little child like character. Look at Ezri she complains nearly all the time. I came from kinda liking Dax before to hating Dax just like that. When Jadzia was Dax I remember some people complaining that she wasn't a strong enough character. I kinda disagree but I can understand that a little bit. But you replace her with a character that weak.

The Bajorans who had no idea that there was a wormhole 5 years before and were faith based, most of their people didn't need orb of anything to have their faith. You don't see someone go from being a christian then for some reason losing all faith then praise Satan for almost no real reason. Yet that's exactly what a portion of the Bajorans do. They suddenly start praising Hell.

Was having a holographic bar really necessary when you have Quarks? I understand having a similar thing in Voyager. It actually fits in that show a little better. But we already have a bar where everyone hangs out in Quarks on DS9. Why have the entire Vic Fontane thing? Yeah Quark doesn't sing but he's pretty much better at everything else than Vic is. There was no need for this entire thing on the show. And I don't see Quark allowing for something like that also because it would be bad for his business to have another bar. Really the only reason to have it was someone singing a couple 50s Sinatra type songs and I have great respect for Sinatra. It just doesn't make sense for a SciFi show.

After basically dominating the war for most of 2 years the Dominion suddenly become dumb. Yes the Federation did start to fight back and gain some ground in season 6. Won back the station but still things weren't going great for the Federation. Then come the Breen. How do you create a character that everyone understands what they say except the viewer. Do they really think the viewer is that stupid? The only reason to add that type of character is to laugh at it because it's a stupid character. And it's not like the Breen were ever really thought of as a big deal in the history of Star Trek. They were always a back ground type character in TNG. Suddenly they have a weapon that the Federation can't beat? Where did this come from?

The other part of the Dominion being dumbed down is that they were basically beat by group of Cardasians and Kira led by an alcoholic back ground character for most of the show. I still don't understand how they tried to make Damar a leader. I didn't see him as a leader at any point. He's Dukat's 2nd in command then he's the 2nd command to the Dominion and an alcoholic. Even when he becomes an underground leader the only reason they show him as a leader is because he says he is. He never actually does anything as a leader. Somehow that group beats the unbeatable dominion. Granted he dies at the end but even that was emotionless.

Now the worst thing of DS9 or any Star Trek ever. The entire Dukat/Winn thing. All of it is awful. It starts with Dukat in season 6 coming from nowhere senselessly kills Dax with fire power from the Pah-Rates, closes wormhole which hurts his side in the war does no real bad for the Federation at all. Darkens the orbs and somehow the Bajorans start losing their faith. Again read above on the Bajoran thing. But he laughably disguises himself as a Bajoran. How the hell was he not caught? I laughed when I first saw him walk on as a Bajoran. Somehow Winn buys it and when she finds outs she converts to Satanism anyway.

Winn and Dukat in the first 6 seasons were always bad but you could understand their motives in someways. Winn was just misguided in her faith. Dukat just wanted what was best for him and his people. Now they both basically become Satanists and this really comes out of nowhere except for Dukat being completely insane because his daughter was killed by the same guy that somehow leads a rebellion on Cardasia against the Dominion.

Now to the end. First off I still don't get the Bashir/Dax thing. I mean WHY? That really served no purpose except to put 2 characters together. Just like 7 and Chackotay getting together the last episode. I still don't get it. But you have Odo leaving to heal his people who are evil and just tried to take over the Alpha quadrant and have been the same way for thousands of years. Yet he expects to change that attitude. Yeah right! Sisko leaves to save Bajor from Satan(Dukat) in the Fire caves in a real weak fight. and leaves his wife and baby alone. Worf leaves for basically no reason. Miles leaves also. Why does everyone have to leave in the last show? That basically destroys any chance for a future TV movie or mini series or anything like any fans want. I can understand having Sisko go to Profit heaven to be with the profits but why does everyone leave?

I can really go on and on about season 7. It's all around awful. This is just the tip of the iceberg.

I can't argue with much of that, but still, these disapoointing plot developments aren't enough to damage the journey, and I can say wholeheartedly that I was very satisfied by how DS9 was concluded.
 
Basically you find out Sisko is half profit then he gets stabbed for no apparent reason and IT WAS NEVER EXPLAINED! If a main character gets explained don't you investigate why?
They did explain it, the Bajoran guy that stabbed him followed the Pah-wraiths, and since Sisko was essentially the Prophet version of Jesus the Pah-wraith guy decided to kill him. Religious nutters have been killing people and claiming glory from it for thousands of years.

You replace a Dax with a weaker child basically to play that role. A role with 10 life times basically becomes a whiney little child like character. Look at Ezri she complains nearly all the time. I came from kinda liking Dax before to hating Dax just like that. When Jadzia was Dax I remember some people complaining that she wasn't a strong enough character. I kinda disagree but I can understand that a little bit. But you replace her with a character that weak.
Well, this is a personal preference thing, all I can say is that I liked Ezri and preferred her to Jadzia. As for why Ezri was different from Jadzia, all the hosts are supposed to be different while keeping some of the same attributes. Personally, I feel that Ezri captured some of the traits Jadzia had back in season 1, before she fully integrated the memories from the symbiont into her own. No doubt as time goes by Ezri would also change to be more like Dax, and I would also argue that you already see some of this transition by WYLB.

The Bajorans who had no idea that there was a wormhole 5 years before and were faith based, most of their people didn't need orb of anything to have their faith. You don't see someone go from being a christian then for some reason losing all faith then praise Satan for almost no real reason. Yet that's exactly what a portion of the Bajorans do. They suddenly start praising Hell.
Not all Bajorans worship the Prophets as gods, and a small number of them already worshipped the Pah-wraiths before the events of Tears of the Prophets, but after those events the Pah-wraith worshippers came out into the open. It would be more akin to Satan revealing himself to the world as being real and suddenly all the Satanists that had existed in secret coming out of the woodwork and worshipping him in the open. That's how I read that situation.

Was having a holographic bar really necessary when you have Quarks? I understand having a similar thing in Voyager. It actually fits in that show a little better. But we already have a bar where everyone hangs out in Quarks on DS9. Why have the entire Vic Fontane thing? Yeah Quark doesn't sing but he's pretty much better at everything else than Vic is. There was no need for this entire thing on the show. And I don't see Quark allowing for something like that also because it would be bad for his business to have another bar. Really the only reason to have it was someone singing a couple 50s Sinatra type songs and I have great respect for Sinatra. It just doesn't make sense for a SciFi show.
Neither does Picard pretending to be a PI in the 1930s, or Data pretending to be Sherlock Holmes, or Worf being a sheriff in the wild west, or Dr Shmully being a Viking warrior. But this is Star Trek, and the holodeck was part of the franchise ever since the pilot of TNG.

I didn't like Vic at first either, but as I've rewatched the show he has grown on me to the point where I don't mind him, and I even enjoy his presence in It's Only a Paper Moon. He's not a great part of the show, but he's okay.

The other part of the Dominion being dumbed down is that they were basically beat by group of Cardasians and Kira led by an alcoholic back ground character for most of the show. I still don't understand how they tried to make Damar a leader. I didn't see him as a leader at any point. He's Dukat's 2nd in command then he's the 2nd command to the Dominion and an alcoholic. Even when he becomes an underground leader the only reason they show him as a leader is because he says he is. He never actually does anything as a leader. Somehow that group beats the unbeatable dominion. Granted he dies at the end but even that was emotionless.
The Cardassian resistance didn't win, they were completely wiped out, remember? The only reason the Cardassians "won" was because the actions of the Dominion incited most of the population into open revolt, and combined with the fact that Dominion HQ was short-staffed due to THE HUGE FEDERATION FLEET IN ORBIT, some Cardassians managed to break in. Remove the Federation fleet and the Cardassians would simply have been quashed.

Now to the end. First off I still don't get the Bashir/Dax thing. I mean WHY?That really served no purpose except to put 2 characters together. Just like 7 and Chackotay getting together the last episode. I still don't get it.
Why not? Two people being attracted to one another doesn't make sense, there's no rhyme or reason to it, it just happens. And it's not like it came from out of the blue, Julian chased after Jadzia from his very first scene in the show, and in season six he was forced to accept the fact that he loved her even though she was with Worf. It makes perfect sense that he would be attracted to Ezri.

But you have Odo leaving to heal his people who are evil and just tried to take over the Alpha quadrant and have been the same way for thousands of years. Yet he expects to change that attitude. Yeah right!
The Changelings sent out the 100 in the hopes that they would come back one day and teach them about the cultures they met, all Odo was doing was fulfilling his destiny. Nobody is suggesting that the entire Link will change their opinion overnight, but Odo went back to try and show them how not all solids should be feared. It may take centuries, it may not happen at all, but he's right to try.

Sisko leaves to save Bajor from Satan(Dukat) in the Fire caves in a real weak fight. and leaves his wife and baby alone.Worf leaves for basically no reason. Miles leaves also. Why does everyone have to leave in the last show? That basically destroys any chance for a future TV movie or mini series or anything like any fans want. I can understand having Sisko go to Profit heaven to be with the profits but why does everyone leave?
Because Ira Behr was smart enough to know that shows end and he didn't want somebody else coming along years later and messing with "his" show. Just look at what happened with TNG, that show should have ended with All Good Things, but instead they did a bunch of superfluous movies that failed to live up to the show. I'm a huge DS9 fan, it's probably my favourite show (warts and all), but I don't want any more DS9. It had its time and its over, and I'm happy with that.
 
Well, this is a personal preference thing, all I can say is that I liked Ezri and preferred her to Jadzia. As for why Ezri was different from Jadzia, all the hosts are supposed to be different while keeping some of the same attributes. Personally, I feel that Ezri captured some of the traits Jadzia had back in season 1, before she fully integrated the memories from the symbiont into her own. No doubt as time goes by Ezri would also change to be more like Dax, and I would also argue that you already see some of this transition by WYLB.

I'll add to this that it is established in Ezri's first appearance that she was unprepared for the joining and was only chosen because the Dax symbiont had to be joined immediately to save its life after being injured in transit.

For this reason, Ezri was at first destabilized by the experience and unable to correctly process all the information she was receiving from her past hosts.

It was a pretty effective way of setting Ezri apart from Jadzia immediately, and it built on what had been established earlier in the show with regard to the intense screening process for candidates for joining, all the training necessary, etc. This was an unprepared individual who was therefore struggling with adapting to the symbiont.

Ezri does slowly became more at ease over the course of season 7, which makes sense, since she would presumably adjust over time.

I'm a huge DS9 fan, it's probably my favourite show (warts and all), but I don't want any more DS9. It had its time and its over, and I'm happy with that.

I tend to agree. Frankly, I consider it a borderline miracle that DS9 is as great as it is, and that we have seven seasons of it to enjoy. Its creators took a lot of risks and had to fight against the current of everyone's expectations for a Trek product. It was ahead of its time and keeps getting better with age. There have been better tv shows, but none that I care about as much. DS9 ended on a high note as far as I'm concerned: it had stretched its budget to the limit and pushed the envelope as far as it could go in an epic tale involving the entire alpha quadrant, and then some. Better to say what you have to say and then leave the stage.

As for season 7 of DS9 being the worst season of Trek ever, honestly Zeppster I laughed out loud when I read that. Now, that doesn't mean I'm right. Quite possibly I am completely wrong, and you are right. I'm just saying, of all the seasons of Trek, DS9's season 7 is perhaps the one I pull off the shelf the most because of episodes like Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges, Chimera, Treachery Faith and the Great River, Once More Unto the Breach, The Siege of AR-558, It's Only a Paper Moon, Tacking into the Wind, not to mention the rest of the final arc which is epic overall despite its flaws.

We didn't need two "break the tension" holodeck episodes, two Ezri episodes would have been more than enough, and Extreme Measures was a mistake, etc. But the flaws don't take away from how good the rest of it is. Beyond the sweeping story arc, what really stands out is how many good characters there are on the show at this point, and how fully realized so many of them are. No other Trek show even comes close to DS9 in this regard, and season 7 is a big part of that.
 
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Neither does Picard pretending to be a PI in the 1930s, or Data pretending to be Sherlock Holmes, or Worf being a sheriff in the wild west, or Dr Shmully being a Viking warrior. But this is Star Trek, and the holodeck was part of the franchise ever since the pilot of TNG.


They never had a bar that was really the center of activity like the Promenade/Quarks was in DS9. They had TenForward but they didn't really go there that much. The holodeck was more of where their recreation time was spent. DS9 don't need two recreation bars but for no real reason they got it. Quark was a central character of the show. Guinan in TNG really wasn't. We didn't see them go to TenForward a ton in TNG if you really think about it. And even when they did it's not like Guinan was really that interesting a character. Her scenes were usually boring. Quark was anything but boring and had a bunch of episodes centered around him. How many Guinan centered episodes were there?

Why not? Two people being attracted to one another doesn't make sense, there's no rhyme or reason to it, it just happens. And it's not like it came from out of the blue, Julian chased after Jadzia from his very first scene in the show, and in season six he was forced to accept the fact that he loved her even though she was with Worf. It makes perfect sense that he would be attracted to Ezri.


The Worf/Jadzia thing grew a bit more over time. The Ezri/Bashir thing came out of nowhere at the last minute. It was poorly conceived and not believable. Just like 7 and Chacotay.

Because Ira Behr was smart enough to know that shows end and he didn't want somebody else coming along years later and messing with "his" show.


In other words he did all the damage he could do to his show that season.
 
They never had a bar that was really the center of activity like the Promenade/Quarks was in DS9. They had TenForward but they didn't really go there that much. The holodeck was more of where their recreation time was spent. DS9 don't need two recreation bars but for no real reason they got it. Quark was a central character of the show. Guinan in TNG really wasn't. We didn't see them go to TenForward a ton in TNG if you really think about it. And even when they did it's not like Guinan was really that interesting a character. Her scenes were usually boring. Quark was anything but boring and had a bunch of episodes centered around him. How many Guinan centered episodes were there?
Well, I don't know what it's like in America, but in Ireland we tend to have more than one bar in our towns. ;) That way you can have pubs that cater to different types of audience, such as one for the kids that like listening to the music of Dizzy Dogg or Calvin Guetta, and one for the older folks that like reading newspapers and chewing tobacco, and one for the ladies that like kissing other ladies... and so on. I wasn't aware that having more than one bar in a town was a localised phenomenon.

Ira wanted to introduce a Sinatra-style lounge singer as a recurring character and that type of character couldn't possibly work in Quark's bar, Quark's already had its own atmosphere. So he made Vic have his own bar/lounge/singing place, that way he could have Vic as a character and Quark's bar would still be Quark's bar. I don't see anything wrong with that, TV shows introduce new standing sets all the time.

The Worf/Jadzia thing grew a bit more over time. The Ezri/Bashir thing came out of nowhere at the last minute. It was poorly conceived and not believable. Just like 7 and Chacotay.
I believed it, and it's not like it came from nowhere, it was in a bunch of episodes in the final arc. And, as I've said, Julian's attraction to Ezri was heavily based on his feelings for Jadzia. It wasn't a stand-out storyline, but I don't think it's major enough to ruin a whole season.
In other words he did all the damage he could do to his show that season.
No, he just wanted to end the show properly. DS9, like all good sagas, has a beginning, a middle and an end, it's what sets it apart from TNG which was a show that pretty much only had a middle. That's not a knock against that show, it was still very good, but that was the nature of TNG. DS9 was different.
 
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