That's a tradtional bit of convenience that makes cinematic sense. Besides Janney was about as good as I would be speaking Latin. The "real mom" sounded like it was normal for her to speak it. But maybe that was intentional--that Latin wasn't Not!Mom's language.
Lost 6x15: "Across the Sea"
- Thread starter Agent Richard07
- Start date
That's a tradtional bit of convenience that makes cinematic sense. Besides Janney was about as good as I would be speaking Latin. The "real mom" sounded like it was normal for her to speak it. But maybe that was intentional--that Latin wasn't Not!Mom's language.
The way the switch was handled struck me as odd - as thought the woman in orange realized something about Alison Janney because of the switch. It really threw me off. I thought they were modern-day Americans who were time-travelling and were pretending to be ancient speakers of Latin in order to fit in with the natives.
They did the "camera pans behind a character and we do a little tingly sound effect" thing that they did back in "Solitary" when Sayid and Co. were speaking Arabic and switched to English...same idea here, I think. My guess is they were butchering Latin pronunciation anyways (if you can butcher a dead language
), so no harm done. I think it's actually kinda nice they go through the trouble to tell us they're speaking a different language to begin with, and that we're only hearing English for our benefit.
I understand what they intended, I just think they botched the execution by making it seem like there was more to the language switch than intended.
The island has built in universal translators.
Y'know, because it's a spaceship.
What?
Y'know, because it's a spaceship.
What?
Funny that you mention this, because no one has talked about the most important clue in the episode.
What was the meaning of that dead turtle on the beach, hm?
Turtle. Think about it, people.
OMG, now I can't unthink it! Thanks a lot!!!
They weren't pulling one on us--they were always referring to MIB after his disembodiment.
MIB the Smoke Monster is evil through and through. They never said the man he was once was was evil through and through.
I disagree to some extent. If you look at seasons 3-5 there is no way to not look at those and see some kind of thought-out planning taking place. The way they pulled together numerous players and threads that had only been briefly mentioned or clues briefly sprinkled throughout into a very cohesive tapestry just couldn't have been sloppily pasted together. It all merged wonderfully i.e. Eloise & Widmore being Others, the survivors & being part of Dharma, the airstrip and 316, Jacob & the statue, Chang & Miles, Jughead and the Incident and the survivors unknowingly role in bringing it about, Eloise & Widmore being Dan's parents, the wells and EM fields, the Orchid & Hatch being last two constructed stations, John's encounter with Richard in 54 planting the seed Locke was special and setting in motion the events, Richard/Black Rock/the statue, the who/what of Christian/who what of Alex in "Dead is Dead" all folding into what is Smokey etc all just didn't serendipitously come together.
No, the problem is this season wasted precious episodes with a straightforward season of running around the island instead of developing all the wonderful set-up of season five and squandering it. I had no idea going into the final season exactly what to expect and tried to have not fostered any scenarios of how things would play out but I do know that this season has been lacking--the guest stars, the threat, the excitement, the revelations etc.
It has gone back this season to that feeling in season 3 when I was about ready to throw my hands up and quit since at the time season one of Heroes was being the kind of show I wanted Lost to be and eventually did in the last 2/3 of season 3, all of season 4 and all of season 5.
It has been aimless and in stalling modality. And in any other series that wasn't LOST focusing on saying good-bye to the characters would be the right thing but with a series like LOST that has really trumpeted the PLOT/Mythology as the primary focus I think it was a miscalculation to decide after the the last 2.75 seasons of giving us a whirlwind of events that they now decide to slow it down and play up the character drama and worse yet do so mainly via the Alternate Characters which I really could care less about. The only one whose flashes have been semi-effective was Jack's. Kate on the run was a bore, Claire baby woes were a snore, killer Sayid tired, the cameos by bit players over the years did nothing for me I could care less about Sawyer with Charlotte or Eloise throwing a bash or Desmond chasing Charlie around in a night gown etc.
And some of the creative decisions have been questionable however I'll wait for the final 3 episodes. Afterall nBSG had a less successful final season but still managed to pull out a really great series finale.
I don't think Lindelof and Cuse feel that way. I just don't know what happened. Maybe they are burned out having sustained as much high quality for as long as they did. Even moreso in these complex serialized dramas. Just look at Heroes or nBSG.
out of me.
Checkmate
Commodore
Yes, you nailed it exactly. My entire post was about how Smokey wasn't evil from start to finish. Yessir. That was my sole criticism of this fucking idiotic episode. You're a master of comprehension!
Fuck this stupid show.
Don't give up yet!
I feel much the same way as you about how things were explained/revealed this last episode... BUT...
They can still turn things around. It might just be a case of them wanting to show us stuff but not wanting to answer any questions until the last episode.
I do believe they once said that once the mystery of the what the smoke monster was revealed the show would be over and now I am really, really hoping that the mystery of the smoke monster hasn't been fully revealed to us yet and that they will give us good answers for everything in the last 2.5 hours.
I still have hope...
Wow, looking around the net, I can't believe how freakin controversial this episode was. I thought it was pretty riveting myself, and one of the stronger ones of the season.
And what's with people being upset over the lack of "answers" in this ep? Aren't we PAST all that by now?? It would be extremely out of character for this show to suddenly get literal and spell all this shit out for us at the end.
Personally, I love that they're keeping things nicely mysterious and enigmatic.
And what's with people being upset over the lack of "answers" in this ep? Aren't we PAST all that by now?? It would be extremely out of character for this show to suddenly get literal and spell all this shit out for us at the end.
Personally, I love that they're keeping things nicely mysterious and enigmatic.
S
Stone_Cold_Sisko
Guest
I'm not surprised at all. I'm genuinly surprised the writers, at this late stage of the game, 3rd to last episode, an entirely flashback episode detailing the past of Jacob and the Smoke Monster.... would continue this vague nonsense style of writing. I said this before but none of this shit makes any sense. I'm talking with a friend on the other side of the country, doesn't read any internet boards at all, same reaction, subpar episode.
What's most unsettling is that it doesn't feel like they are holding back for big finale reveals... it feels like this IS the answer. I'd be shocked if we saw Allison Janney's character again. The answer to "what is the deal with Jacob and MiB" is now, "what is the deal with their 'mother'" they just transposed all the mystery to her, a fucking wizard (I like that phrase, it sums up whats so frustrating about this show) who has more mysterious magical powers.
One of the reasons a lot of critics look down on genre stuff is that there's this feeling, that you don't have to actually write. Character motivations and storylines don't have to make organic sense anymore, because you can always pull out a sci-fi technobabble, or a character using magic, or some kind of dream sequence or prophecy or something to always justify whatever you want. Nothing in this show makes any goddamn logical sense.
There is no logical reason for any of this to happen. Would any person in this forum push a button every 108 minutes because someone told him it would save the world, without any specific explanation of how or why? If anyone reading this answers yes... Give me all your money or the planet explodes. Guess what, if you're a character in LOST, I'm fucking rich because you just did it! Kidnap some kids because someone you've never even seen told you, without telling you why? SURE WHY NOT! Devote your life to protecting a cave of light? WTF! I'm not a 'hater' I've seen every episode of LOST and until about mid-season it was my favorite show ever, i would just stop watching altogether if i didn't LOVE it... but I'm really REALLY unsettled at how much wind these non-revelation revelations are taking out of the show's sails. I have a really REALLY hard time believing THIS was what the writers have been sitting on and planned. So much of the show just seems pointless... it's just.................................. I think I'm going to go watch an episode of Angel or something. This show is just pissing me off too much to try and express my thoughts.
NO WAIT I'm not done. Here's something else that is unsettling to me... it started when Elana blew up and Ben made that comment about how she gave the needed information and then the island was done. That struck me as a meta-comment, the writers acknowledging how sloppy their writing was... then, we got it again this week with all those comments about "mother" never giving clear answers... more meta comments from the writers. And then, the episode goes on along the same path of vague non-answers. Why does it feel like the writers are just mocking fans who were waiting for answers? Like, "ha ha you actually care about the answers? Hey check out this clever little double-meaning line, about how you're not actually going to get any of them!". I'm almost tempted to dive into the spoiler thread because I need some justification that this is leading somewhere remotely satisfying so I don't end up bitter at what was once my favorite show.
Please prove me wrong, writers, please give us some clear info that makes this mediocre episode make one lick of sense. The best thing about Ab Aeterno (kicks the ever loving shit out of Across the Sea by the way) was how satisfying it was when Jacob gave Richard a clear non-confounding answer to an important question.
What's most unsettling is that it doesn't feel like they are holding back for big finale reveals... it feels like this IS the answer. I'd be shocked if we saw Allison Janney's character again. The answer to "what is the deal with Jacob and MiB" is now, "what is the deal with their 'mother'" they just transposed all the mystery to her, a fucking wizard (I like that phrase, it sums up whats so frustrating about this show) who has more mysterious magical powers.
One of the reasons a lot of critics look down on genre stuff is that there's this feeling, that you don't have to actually write. Character motivations and storylines don't have to make organic sense anymore, because you can always pull out a sci-fi technobabble, or a character using magic, or some kind of dream sequence or prophecy or something to always justify whatever you want. Nothing in this show makes any goddamn logical sense.
There is no logical reason for any of this to happen. Would any person in this forum push a button every 108 minutes because someone told him it would save the world, without any specific explanation of how or why? If anyone reading this answers yes... Give me all your money or the planet explodes. Guess what, if you're a character in LOST, I'm fucking rich because you just did it! Kidnap some kids because someone you've never even seen told you, without telling you why? SURE WHY NOT! Devote your life to protecting a cave of light? WTF! I'm not a 'hater' I've seen every episode of LOST and until about mid-season it was my favorite show ever, i would just stop watching altogether if i didn't LOVE it... but I'm really REALLY unsettled at how much wind these non-revelation revelations are taking out of the show's sails. I have a really REALLY hard time believing THIS was what the writers have been sitting on and planned. So much of the show just seems pointless... it's just.................................. I think I'm going to go watch an episode of Angel or something. This show is just pissing me off too much to try and express my thoughts.
NO WAIT I'm not done. Here's something else that is unsettling to me... it started when Elana blew up and Ben made that comment about how she gave the needed information and then the island was done. That struck me as a meta-comment, the writers acknowledging how sloppy their writing was... then, we got it again this week with all those comments about "mother" never giving clear answers... more meta comments from the writers. And then, the episode goes on along the same path of vague non-answers. Why does it feel like the writers are just mocking fans who were waiting for answers? Like, "ha ha you actually care about the answers? Hey check out this clever little double-meaning line, about how you're not actually going to get any of them!". I'm almost tempted to dive into the spoiler thread because I need some justification that this is leading somewhere remotely satisfying so I don't end up bitter at what was once my favorite show.
Please prove me wrong, writers, please give us some clear info that makes this mediocre episode make one lick of sense. The best thing about Ab Aeterno (kicks the ever loving shit out of Across the Sea by the way) was how satisfying it was when Jacob gave Richard a clear non-confounding answer to an important question.
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Exactly right, Stone Cold. I'm not asking for them to answer everything in a neat package. I don't need all the questions answered. I don't even need the answers to make a whole lot of sense. But, please, give us something more then "it's magic."
In Twin Peaks the answer to who killed Laura Palmer was her father, possessed by an evil, spiritual parasite called "Bob" that originated in a place of evil called "The Black Lodge" and fed on the fear, pain and death he caused out in the real world, killed her.
Now that may sound stupid written out that way, and it doesn't answer any questions about who/what Bob really was, How he came into being, what the black lodge really was, when or how he possessed her father, what, if any, his long term goals were, how he got his powers or any of a dozen other questions about the murder, Bob, the black lodge or anything else... But...
It was a great answer for the show and what they had built it up to be. it didn't answer everything, but it answered just enough for any genre fan to be happy and love the series.
Just saying "it's a magical light" or "a magical place" isn't an answer. Or it's not a very good one. Just drinking a glass of wine isn't a "big reveal" on how to make someone a "guardian of the Island", just having the mother say "It took care of it so that you will never have to worry about dying and can never kill each other" isn't a good answer.
At least give us a bit more.
That's why I haven't given up all hope just yet. The answer could take 3 minutes of screen time to tell us over the next 3.5 hours of TV and I'd be happy.
It could be as simple as:
"There is a grand design to the universe. Everything is connected to everything else. A butterfly flapping it's wings in China can cause a tornado in Kansas. The reason everything is so connected is because of this "spark" of life (energy) in all things. this Island, for some long lost reason, is a focal point for all of this energy that connects every living thing through out the world.
Ancient mystics called them "lay lines" lines of energy encircling the globe. they all meet here on this island. being so close to the convergence of all of these "lay lines" gives the island special properties. Amazing things happen here. Amazing coincidences. Healing energy. Special powers over fate and life itself. By studying and controlling the lay lines that converge here you can alter peoples fate and lives. But there is a danger as well. If this island was ever destroyed by man, or natural causes, then the energy would die out. the Lay lines would drift apart. there would be no more "spark". Life on Earth would end.
The MIB touched the focal point of the lay lines directly. He is part of them now. He can see people's pasts by studying their "aura" and back tracking their "lay lines". But with his connection to the lay lines he is now tied to them as well. if he leaves, the lay lines would split apart and the spark would go out. Ending the world. He has to stay here, close to the focal point or all is lost. it was up to Jacob to keep him here and keep the focal point safe. Now it will be up to one of you to take Jacob's place."
I just made that up off the top of my head and it would take all of three minutes to have "ghost" Jacob explain it to the Losties. And that would be fine and make everything all good in my books. it doesn't answer everything, but it explains a lot and and still keeps the mystery alive and doesn't contradict anything we've seen so far in the series.
All I ask is that they at least give us something like that. An answer, even a vague one, is better then just saying it is "magic" or "the mother made it that way."
In Twin Peaks the answer to who killed Laura Palmer was her father, possessed by an evil, spiritual parasite called "Bob" that originated in a place of evil called "The Black Lodge" and fed on the fear, pain and death he caused out in the real world, killed her.
Now that may sound stupid written out that way, and it doesn't answer any questions about who/what Bob really was, How he came into being, what the black lodge really was, when or how he possessed her father, what, if any, his long term goals were, how he got his powers or any of a dozen other questions about the murder, Bob, the black lodge or anything else... But...
It was a great answer for the show and what they had built it up to be. it didn't answer everything, but it answered just enough for any genre fan to be happy and love the series.
Just saying "it's a magical light" or "a magical place" isn't an answer. Or it's not a very good one. Just drinking a glass of wine isn't a "big reveal" on how to make someone a "guardian of the Island", just having the mother say "It took care of it so that you will never have to worry about dying and can never kill each other" isn't a good answer.
At least give us a bit more.
That's why I haven't given up all hope just yet. The answer could take 3 minutes of screen time to tell us over the next 3.5 hours of TV and I'd be happy.
It could be as simple as:
"There is a grand design to the universe. Everything is connected to everything else. A butterfly flapping it's wings in China can cause a tornado in Kansas. The reason everything is so connected is because of this "spark" of life (energy) in all things. this Island, for some long lost reason, is a focal point for all of this energy that connects every living thing through out the world.
Ancient mystics called them "lay lines" lines of energy encircling the globe. they all meet here on this island. being so close to the convergence of all of these "lay lines" gives the island special properties. Amazing things happen here. Amazing coincidences. Healing energy. Special powers over fate and life itself. By studying and controlling the lay lines that converge here you can alter peoples fate and lives. But there is a danger as well. If this island was ever destroyed by man, or natural causes, then the energy would die out. the Lay lines would drift apart. there would be no more "spark". Life on Earth would end.
The MIB touched the focal point of the lay lines directly. He is part of them now. He can see people's pasts by studying their "aura" and back tracking their "lay lines". But with his connection to the lay lines he is now tied to them as well. if he leaves, the lay lines would split apart and the spark would go out. Ending the world. He has to stay here, close to the focal point or all is lost. it was up to Jacob to keep him here and keep the focal point safe. Now it will be up to one of you to take Jacob's place."
I just made that up off the top of my head and it would take all of three minutes to have "ghost" Jacob explain it to the Losties. And that would be fine and make everything all good in my books. it doesn't answer everything, but it explains a lot and and still keeps the mystery alive and doesn't contradict anything we've seen so far in the series.
All I ask is that they at least give us something like that. An answer, even a vague one, is better then just saying it is "magic" or "the mother made it that way."
Why aren't you writing for Lost?
I can't grade this episode on any conventional scale. It wasn't exceptionally bad nor it was excellent. It was pointless. None of the answers that were given (like who are the two corpses in the cave) add much to the explanation of what the hell is going on on this island. Instead, it raises a gazzilion other questions and it is not a good move 2 episodes before the series finale.
So there's a magic light cave and it should be protected from bad people for some reason. It turns out that Jacob was an idiot and his brother was a smart one in the family.
At this point I want the MIB, whoever or whatever it is, to win. If it causes the end of the world - so be it, it will be a much better end of the show than any alternative that I can come up with at this point.
Fuck this stupid show.
Nobody's making you watch it.
If one ep. is going to ruin 6 seasons worth of a show for you, as you ignore all the answers they gave you before that contradicts what you've believe. Yes, then you should stop watching.Yes, you nailed it exactly. My entire post was about how Smokey wasn't evil from start to finish. Yessir. That was my sole criticism of this fucking idiotic episode. You're a master of comprehension!
Fuck this stupid show.
I have been speculating for awhile that the end may be about the end of the cycle, not just the end for our characters. The dead turtle may represent the death of the cycle.
Mr Awe
startrekwatcher said:
That's why I said someone. I wasn't sure it was them. Networks get in the way all the time (see Voyager) and gum things up. It just feels that way.
Stone_Cold_Sisko said:
Yeah, that's the feeling I meant to describe.
Mallet said:
Dude, seriously, that was brilliant! That gave an acceptable answer to a lot of stuff. It doesn't really answer things, but it explains them enough so viewers can say, yeah, fine.
I still don't like how Dharma was played up for sooooo long, how Aaron and Walt's "specialness" was played up from the very start, how other similar things were played up--and then dropped because they seemingly changed their minds.
I know Ben was supposed to be a temporary guest star, but surely they could've fit him into their pre-existing narrative before they restructured the show around him? Then restructured it again to show just how "nothing" his group was in the overal scheme? I don't know, make him an earlier shipwreck survivor who's paranoid. Something that didn't add all this stuff that they built on for a couple of seasons, and then drop like a rock.
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